Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Question 44: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the bed capacity in each prison; the number of prisoners incarcerated at each location; the action he proposes to take in respect of prison overcrowding; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21853/09]

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Question 45: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if his attention has been drawn to the concern expressed by an association (details supplied) at the extent of overcrowding in prisons and the warning of the atmosphere that the overcrowding is creating; his plans for the provision of additional prison places in view of the collapse of the Thornton Hall project; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21686/09]

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 44 and 45 together.

There has been a consistent increase in the total prisoner population over recent years. It was particularly apparent over the past 12 months during which time the total number in custody increased by 267, a 7% rise in the number in custody. Several reasons are responsible for this increase, in particular the extra resources provided by the Government to the Garda Síochána which has been increasingly successful in prosecuting criminals and extra court sittings which have resulted in higher committal rates.

There is no evidence the courts are excessive in their use of the sanction of imprisonment. Figures produced by the Courts Service suggest only a quarter of indictable offences brought before the District Court and the Circuit Court result in immediate prison sentences. Use is made of fines, community service, probation, restorative justice and suspended sentences. Nevertheless, there are many circumstances where a custodial sentence is the only appropriate outcome and the spaces for those people sent to prison by the courts must be provided.

Despite increasing the stock of prison accommodation, I have acknowledged that prison overcrowding is an issue. While our rate of imprisonment is lower, and the level of overcrowding less, than many of our EU neighbours such as the UK or France, it does not take away from our responsibility to address this issue.

On 22 May 2009, there were 3,642 permanent beds available in the prison system with 3,853 prisoners in custody, representing an occupancy level of 106%. The table which I propose to circulate in the Official Report will provide a breakdown of the population of each prison and place of detention on 22 May 2009.

Significant investment has been made in the criminal justice system in recent years, not least in the prison system. The Prison Service has been engaged in an extensive programme of investment in prisons infrastructure involving both the modernisation of the existing estate and the provision of extra prison spaces. Since 1997, in excess of 1,300 prison spaces have come on stream in the prison system. These include the new prisons in Castlerea, the Midlands, Cloverhill, the Dóchas Centre and new accommodation in Limerick Prison.

Despite this significant investment, it is quite clear that in some of our prisons, we are operating in excess of our bed capacity. However, in the short to medium term this issue will be addressed by the provision of 400 prison spaces by mid-2009 by means of the following: a new remand block in Castlerea Prison which will accommodate approximately 100 prisoners; a new block in Portlaoise Prison which will accommodate approximately 150 prisoners; and a new block in Wheatfield Prison which will accommodate 150 prisoners, due to be completed in the summer of 2009. Recently over 30 extra spaces have been made available at the open centre at Shelton Abbey and a further 40 at the open centre at Loughan House.

The prisons have contingency plans in place whereby they can accommodate numbers above their ideal working capacity. Given the serious pressure the Prison Service has been experiencing during the past 18 months, in 2008 it became necessary to introduce additional contingency accommodation through the doubling up of cells in Mountjoy, Wheatfield, Cloverhill, Midlands and Arbour Hill prisons and in the training unit. This provided 180 bed spaces.

As the pressure shows no sign of abating, the Prison Service recently decided to increase its capacities through the doubling up of further cells in Mountjoy, Wheatfield, Cloverhill, Midlands and Arbour Hill prisons and in the training unit, creating 200 additional temporary bed spaces, some of which are already in place and others coming on stream shortly.

The Government is firmly committed to replacing the prisons on the Mountjoy complex with modern prison accommodation at Thornton. I intend to bring comprehensive new proposals to the Government in the next fortnight setting out how we can proceed with building a new, modern, regime-orientated and cost effective prison complex at Thornton that best meets the taxpayers' interests. Following consideration of these proposals by the Government I will make a public announcement on this matter.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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At approximately €2,000 a week or €100,00 per year per prisoner, society is getting bad value for money from its prison system. There is a need now, more than ever before, for a fundamental rethink of our prisons policy given the revolving door nature of the system. Statistics clearly show a recidivism rate of 50%, with people often back in prison within four years. There is no strategic management of the prison populations or case management of individual prisoners. We now have a real problem of chronic overcrowding in the prison system which the Minister is not addressing. He has told the House before of his plans to make extra prison spaces available this summer. We are now at the end of May and the prison population is increasing by 1% per month. The contingency accommodation that the Minister spoke about is actually the governor's office in Mountjoy Prison and many reception areas in prisons doubling up as cells.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Has the Deputy a question?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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This is no way to run our prisons. When exactly will the 400 extra prison spaces that the Minister has spoken about in the House for the past several months become available?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I do not accept we are getting bad value for money. Ireland has one of the lowest percentage of prisoners to population in comparison with most other EU member states. As for the 400 extra spaces, it is obvious the Deputy did not listen to what I said earlier.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I heard the Minister say mid-summer but that is in three weeks.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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In the coming weeks 100 new spaces at Castlerea and 150 spaces at Wheatfield will become available. The remaining balance will become available later on. These are new places and I do not accept the allegation that the Government has done little in this respect. We have planned the extra 1,300 prison places over the past ten years with another 400. For the long term, we are examining the prison estate, replacing Mountjoy Prison which is out of date and proceeding with the Thornton Hall project. The Government is also examining means of preventing people entering the prison system through restorative justice and other programmes.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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During the last Question Time, the Minister told us there was a 30% increase in the price for Thornton Hall which he described as coming to hundreds of millions of euro. Since then I have been attempting to understand how 30% of the price could come to hundreds of millions of euro. I have been informed the increase in the construction price was actually €30 million, of which 85% is due to sourcing moneys on the international bank markets and 15% due to alterations in the day-to-day operation sought by the Prison Service.

Moreover, I was informed that €30 million of additional construction work was demanded by the Irish Prison Service in changed specifications that were borne by the company and that the company itself made submissions to the Department in respect of a changed specification that is to modern international standards and which would have brought home the project for €40 million less but that this was rejected. This constitutes a dramatically different picture and the Minister should take this opportunity to tell Members whether there is any truth in it, because this information is well-founded.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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First, I was neither privy to nor part of any negotiations and have had no contact with either the Léargas consortium or any other consortia that had bid. While I am unsure of the source of Deputy Rabbitte's figures, and it might be illuminating were he to disclose their origin, from the information I have been given by my staff they are not correct. As I stated, the overall increase was more than 30% of the original indicative annual unitary price that had been agreed. As the Deputy may recall, this price was to be paid on a public private partnership basis, that is, as an annual payment over a 25-year period. As I noted earlier, due mainly to the cost of finance the price has increased by 30% since May 2007, when the original preferred bidder was chosen. I believe Deputy Rabbitte referred to a figure of €30 million.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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No, the Minister referred to hundreds of millions of euro.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Yes I did. However, the Deputy referred to €30 million.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Yes.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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That is not the case and I stand over my comments in respect of hundreds of millions of euro because this is a massive project. As I noted previously, its overall scale is such that this will be a prison for 20 or 30 years time and its overall capacity could be 2,200 spaces, doubled up. While the Deputy has referred to it as a super-prison, it comprises a number of prisons within a single complex. It comprised eight different blocks and was a massive project. Having considered its overall funding, in the circumstances it obviously is not affordable at present-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will take a brief supplementary from each of the Deputies. I call Deputy Rabbitte first.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I will revert to the Cabinet within the next fortnight with proposals as to how to revisit the entire issue, provided the same capacity is continued with-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Go raibh maith agat. I am anxious to get a brief supplementary.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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-----while reconsidering the configuration.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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No one outside this House would believe this. The biggest prison building project in the history of the State is the responsibility of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. He tells the House piously that he does not know anything about the figures, that he has nothing to do with it and that he does not meet-----

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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No, I did not state that I did not know anything about the figures. I stated the Deputy's figure of €30 million was not correct and he should not misquote me.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Minister stated he was not involved.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Members are entitled to know. Were I Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, I would know everything there was to be known about this building project. I again ask the Minister whether it is true that the increase in the price from that indicated in 2007 is not hundreds of millions of euro but is approximately €30 million and that it is mainly due to the cost of sourcing money on the international markets. If this is the case, how does the Minister propose to find an alternative developer that can source such funds more cheaply? How can the Minister reject this proposition, on which so much work was done, and offer the House the prospect that he will get someone else to build it far more cheaply?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Whoever is briefing Deputy Rabbitte is doing so with completely incorrect and inaccurate figures. I know the figures and the difference in the unitary annual cost between the time when the preferred bidder was announced, after which negotiations began, and the final offer that was made by that bidder.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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It was hundreds of millions of euro.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Over the 25-year lifetime of the contract, it would have cost the taxpayer hundreds of millions of euro more. I considered it in the context both of affordability and the concept of constructing a prison to the proposed scale. The Government will consider constructing a similar prison with the same configuration of spaces but will try to find a way to so do while providing better value to the taxpayer.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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A brief supplementary from Deputy Flanagan.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Ultimately, when I considered the position, having been briefed by my officials on what was the final offer by this consortium, it was decided it could not be afforded on the basis of the additional money that was being sought by the consortium.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am anxious for the Minister to move along and I call Deputy Charles Flanagan.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Moreover, even at the final stage, the consortium did not come up with a clear indication as to the source of the finance.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I call Deputy Flanagan.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Why does the Minister think he can secure an alternative consortium?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Again, we will consider the issue of Thornton Hall-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy Charles Flanagan has been called for a final supplementary question, otherwise we will be obliged to move on to the next question.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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-----while trying to provide the same spaces, albeit perhaps on a much more reasonable scale than was conceived originally at the height of the market.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Leas-Cheann Comhairle will agree this is a matter that must be revisited in some detail, notwithstanding the Minister's confirmation that he is presenting some plans to the Government in the near future. It is important that this House be kept fully informed and this matter will require detailed examination by the Minister of a nature that is not available to Members at present.

In the meantime, having regard to the long-fingered Thornton Hall project, a real problem arises. The Minister will be aware of the case of Gary Douch, who died in Mountjoy Prison when in a cell with six others. Overcrowding in the Minister's prisons is fuelling discontent and violence within prisons, adds to a low level of morale among staff and is highly dangerous.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will allow a final reply from an tAire.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Members seek assurances from the Minister that he is on top of this issue, which is a real and pressing problem within the justice system.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Again, the direct day-to-day running of the prison is the responsibility of the Irish Prison Service and I am in constant contact with its director in respect of this issue. Obviously, our record speaks for itself. Both Deputies Flanagan and Rabbitte were members of a Government that stopped the prison building programme.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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That was years ago.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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While the Deputy may state that was ages ago, one cannot build prison spaces overnight and one must plan for the short, medium and long term, which is what the Government has done by building 1,300 spaces since 1997.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Government had the golden years of the Celtic tiger and failed to build the prisons. It is too late now because the Government lacks the money.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Allow the Minister to conclude.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Government restarted the prison building programme, which had been in abeyance for three years when Deputy Flanagan's party was last in government. The Government has provided 1,300 spaces and will put in another 400 by mid-summer-----

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Of what year?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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-----and is considering the long term, which is Thornton Hall. The Government should be given credit in this regard.