Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the fact that the Government made a formal announcement last night to the effect that consensus has been reached that a far greater contribution should be made by the religious orders and institutions in respect of the victims who were children in their care when they were abused. I also welcome the fact that two of the 18 religious institutions have made statements to the effect that it is their intention to increase substantially the contributions they can make in this regard. I hope that the other 16 institutions will follow suit very promptly.

It is imperative that the negotiations referred to by the Taoiseach involve not only the religious orders and the Government, but the victims in particular of what were a whole series of heinous crimes. In other words, when the negotiations are taking place, they should be represented. I also believe the contributions to be made should be agreed and should be neither voluntary nor discretionary. It may be that some orders will have far greater reserves than others. During the negotiations, does the Taoiseach intend on the basis of accountability and transparency to seek full recourse from the religious institutions based on the extent of their assets, capital resources etc., so that in formulating a plan there can be some understanding of what precise contribution can be made by the individual bodies?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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On the first matter, it is my intention that the Government should meet with the victims' groups and talk to them about the issues that pertain to them and listen to what they have to say as regards their general view on those matters. Regarding the discussions with the congregations, I welcome what has been said thus far by those bodies that have spoken over the past 24 hours. I hope that other congregations will similarly reflect on their positions and come forward. It is important in these discussions that trust and confidence are built up which will engender public confidence that any contributions to be made will be substantial, and commensurate with the resources the congregations have at their disposal.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I asked the Taoiseach whether it was his position that the contributions to be made by the religious institutions would be agreed and neither be voluntary or discretionary, and that the victims and their representatives would be involved in the discussions.

The Taoiseach is aware that the Charities Act 2009 has been passed by the Oireachtas. Section 53 of that Act gives the power to direct in writing a charitable organisation to provide the authority with such information as it may reasonably require to enable it to perform its functions. It is important that in formulating the extent of the contributions to be made that the Government and therefore the public are aware of the extent to which each institution can actually contribute. Obviously, some will have more resources than others. Is it the Taoiseach's intention to seek a full audit either under the Charities Act or by some independent means, or does he propose to ensure that he is getting the full picture in respect of the agreed contributions to be arrived at?

Deputy Shatter has referred on numerous occasions to the contributions to be made by the religious institutions. Is it intended to use some element of that money to provide resources to deal with the inadequacies of the systems that operate at present? I know the Taoiseach has appointed the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, to formulate a plan by the end of July. There is, however, no priority within that plan. I do not understand why the Minister of State, who has not overly distinguished himself in his duties to date as regards Vietnam and so on, cannot debate the issues when the Dáil resumes in two weeks time and outline for the House the timescale and priorities he is according both for the victims and the current inadequacies. Will the Taoiseach also indicate how long he envisages it will take to implement those recommendations? Is it his intention to use some of the contributions from the religious institutions to provide funding in respect of areas in the system where inadequacies exist?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I disagree with Deputy Kenny regarding the performance of the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews. The latter is distinguishing himself in his position and is extremely committed to the task he has undertaken on behalf of the Government. As already stated, he will take the opportunity afforded by the debate to be held in a couple of weeks' time to outline his general approach and that of the Government. Drawing up an implementation plan over the next six to eight weeks is a good approach to take in the context of developing a comprehensive response to the recommendations. I understand that the part of the Charities Act to which the Deputy refers is not operative.

As already stated, it is important that the congregations should come forward with proposals that are commensurate with the level of resources available to them. I intend to discuss with them how we might proceed in a way that will engender public confidence.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Will the victims be represented at the discussions?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As I indicated earlier, I will meet and liaise with the groups representing the victims and also the congregations.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I also welcome the statement made by the Government last night. This statement was made almost a week after the publication of the Ryan report and came in the aftermath of overwhelming public outrage with regard to the contents of that report. As I understand it, the Government is proposing that the religious orders should make further contributions, that some mechanism can be found to house those contributions - perhaps a trust along the lines I have been suggesting - and that a means by which the public might assess the significance of those contributions, in the context of the assets, financial circumstances, etc., of the religious orders, will be put in place.

It is important that this exercise should not become some kind of repeat of the sweetheart deal that was done in 2002. As a result, there is a need for clarity with regard to what is intended. In replying to Deputy Kenny's inquiries, the Taoiseach has now stated on two occasions that the approach he intends to take is to hear what the congregations have to say and, in a sense, discover what they are offering. Does he have an idea of the quantum of what would be acceptable in this instance? What amount of further contributions does he feel would be appropriate? The Taoiseach will recall that when the 2002 was being drawn up, the Department of Finance recommended that the contributions of the State and the congregations should be on a 50-50 basis. Is he of the view that the congregations should make further contributions which would reflect this or is he going to accept whatever is offered?

The Government statement in respect of this matter indicates that the contributions might be dealt with by way of a trust, which would be a good way to proceed. However, some of the congregations seem to be suggesting that it might be done by way of provision of services, including counselling services. I suspect that the last source from which the victims of these awful crimes would want to seek counselling would be the orders whose members inflicted abuse on them in the first instance. In such circumstances, is the Taoiseach in a position to assure us that these further contributions will be made in material terms, namely, in the form of money, property or other assets?

By what means will the public be able to assess the level of further contributions made? How are we to assess both the appropriate level of contribution and the amount the congregations will be in a position to contribute? As Deputy Kenny asked - Deputy Burton posed the same question yesterday - will an independent audit be carried out in respect of the congregations and their assets? Could such an audit be carried out by the Revenue Commissioners or the Criminal Assets Bureau in order that we might assess the level of assets in existence? One of these agencies might also investigate whether congregations have been transferring out assets in anticipation of any request for a further contribution. Will the Taoiseach provide an assurance that any deal resulting from the discussions between the Government and the congregations will be brought before the House for its consideration and approval?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As I outlined in the statement I made on the Government's behalf yesterday, additional voluntary contributions must be made by the congregations. I also indicated that, quite apart from the moral responsibility the congregations have to the victims in light of the conclusions in the Ryan report - which outlines, in graphic detail, the systemic abuse that took place in the relevant institutions during the period investigated by the commission - the court of public opinion should be very persuasive in this regard. I further indicated that I wish to meet representatives of the congregations to discuss this matter and identify a way in which further contributions might be made in a way that would engender public confidence. People must be able to see that what might be offered will be additional, substantive and, in some respects, commensurate to the resources available to the congregations.

The process of engagement will begin when I meet the representatives of the congregations, which, I hope, will indicate their general disposition in the coming days. During the past 24 hours, two or three congregations began the process of indicating their views in that regard.

With regard to the level of further contributions that will be provided, the Government statement outlines the possibility of establishing a trust into which the congregations might deposit such contributions. I am of the view that such a trust could be used for educational and welfare purposes as well for as providing further assistance and support to the victims. I am also of the view that the best way to proceed is for the Government to provide services in this regard. The congregations may have an opinion regarding the services they currently provide and how these might be augmented. I would prepared to listen to what they have to say in respect of this matter without prejudging the position.

The Deputy's third question related to identifying the resources that are available. As already stated, I am of the view that the process of engagement must be such that it would be clear to the public that an additional substantial contribution is being made. In the first instance, I would place the onus on the congregations to outline what they propose to do and the rationale relating thereto. I will then discuss further with them whether this meets our expectations. I am prepared to discuss all of these issues and to ensure that the public will be confident that any further contributions will be seen as being substantially additional to that which has already been made.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach describes the means by which this will be done as being in the form of additional voluntary contributions from the congregations. What will happen if some of the congregations do not make such contributions? Two or three of the 18 congregations have indicated their intentions. If some of the other congregations do not play ball in the context of what the Taoiseach refers to as the "process of engagement", what will be the position? Does the Government have at its disposal a mechanism it can use to cause contributions to be made by those congregations that do not step up to the plate?

In advance of talking to the congregations, the Taoiseach may not want to divulge his hand but if the additional voluntary contributions are not substantial, does the Government know what it would consider a satisfactory level of further contribution? Will the Taoiseach hear what the congregations say and the offer they make and accept it if the offer sounds good enough? Is this entirely in the hands of the congregations or does the Government have an idea of what should be the level of contribution?

Is it the intention of the Taoiseach that, unlike what happened in 2002, whatever is concluded with the congregations should be considered by the House? It is the view of the Labour Party that this should happen. As the Taoiseach said, there must be a basis by which the public can assess whether the level of contribution is appropriate having regard to the assets of the institutions. Will an audit be carried out by somebody on the assets and the ability of the congregations to make a contribution and the level of contribution they can make?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There is no means by which the Government can legally impose a solution in this respect. The Government has indicated that, as a result of the conclusions of this report, there is a clear moral responsibility on the congregations to make additional substantial contributions towards the victims and the provision of assistance and help and towards welfare and education services generally arising from this report, given the clear systemic issue in these institutions. Congregations have varying roles in terms of the number of institutions and the contribution they were making in respect of these schools and institutions.

I do not have a preconceived notion of what is adequate. I must see the full resources available to these congregations in order to make that judgment.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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How will the Taoiseach do that?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I intend to do that by discussing with them and placing an onus on them to outline, in a transparent way, what resources they have available and the contribution they intend to make.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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And take their word for it.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Then I will discuss the adequacy of the offer made and ensure the court of public opinion is of persuasive effect in that respect. Regarding the ultimate arrangement that will be agreed to and finalised, the previous agreement reached was conducted by Government in respect of the Civil Liability Act and was a totally legitimate exercise in making sure people got access to speedy compensation and redress, without people having to go through the court system on an individual basis where they would have to provide higher levels of proof than what was required in the redress scheme, which I regard as a compassionate and good scheme that enabled people to get access to redress far more quickly than would have been the case were traditional legal routes followed. That exercise was valid.

In this respect, we refer to additional contributions that cannot be legally imposed. In the aftermath of those discussions and agreement being reached, I have no problem with it being discussed in this House.