Dáil debates
Thursday, 21 May 2009
Other Questions
Health Service Inquiries.
Deirdre Clune (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Question 7: To ask the Minister for Health and Children if she will make a full copy of the Monageer inquiry report available to the Houses of the Oireachtas; the reason seven out of 26 recommendations have been blacked out; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [20576/09]
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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As I have indicated, I am considering the option of apprising the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children on the substance of the redacted recommendations in a manner and context which ensures the rights of those involved are protected and no reputational damage is suffered. That process is ongoing and I am seeking legal advice in that regard. Some seven of the recommendations of the report were redacted following legal determination. I cannot comment on aspects of the report that have been redacted or the basis for the redactions, nor am I in a position to publish the full report.
I take this opportunity to restate my assertion that there is much to be learned from the report despite the legal necessity to redact certain aspects. Recent initiatives aimed at improving services to children and families include the establishment of an emergency place of safety service for children; the putting into place by the HSE of a more integrated multidisciplinary approach to out-of-hours services; the commencement of a comprehensive review of nursing services in the community, which will cover public health nursing services; the preparation of a framework for the delivery of early intervention services, covering both statutory and non-statutory providers to ensure a standard and consistent approach to service delivery; and the establishment by the HSE of a task force to standardise policies and procedures for child protection and welfare services across the country.
The Garda Síochána has committed to incorporating the findings of the Monageer report into Garda practices and procedures, which I welcome.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On a point of order, why has Question No. 7 not been grouped with similar questions as was the practice with the first non-priority question? I refer to Question No. 22, which would be the first and there are others.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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Including Question No. 36.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Logically they should be grouped.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Chair has no control over grouping, which is a matter for the Minister or Minister of State.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is very poor that questions that are exactly the same are not being grouped under this response.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is a procedural matter that the Deputy might like to raise subsequently.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I would like to ask a question that is appropriate at the end.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I support my colleague in this matter. It is normal that they would be grouped.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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As a number of Deputies have an interest in the matter, I will be flexible with the time.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I thank you, a Leas Cheann Comhairle. As Deputy Shatter has said, never before have we had recommendations blacked out of a report. The Minister of State's assertion that it is only the most hard-hitting recommendations that are left in beggars belief. Does he think the public will buy that? The public only has his word for that. That will not do. At a time when we need to protect our children we need transparency. That is the first step towards accountability which needs to occur before we get fairness. We have not had fairness for our children. This has been the case in the past and it continued until the not distant past.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Has the Minister of State accepted recommendations 8.1 to 8.14 and 8.22 to 8.26? A simple "Yes" or "No" will do in response. Will he supply the details of the implementation plan, which has been put in place for each recommendation? Will he identify who has ministerial responsibility for ensuring each of the recommendations is implemented? How can we be sure they will be carried out when we do not know what they are? Will the Minister of State issue them to an Oireachtas committee for its perusal? That is the only way we can get some transparency. After 50 years of people being kept in the dark, this is no way to treat this report.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I did not say the most hard-hitting recommendations were left in and less hard-hitting ones left out. I simply said that those recommendations that were published were hard hitting. I was trying to underline the point that we were not in the business of censoring or covering up whatsoever.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Government has censored it.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Allow the Minister of State to continue.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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We are going backwards.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State appears to be saying, "I told you everything, but I am not telling you that".
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Allow the Minister of State to respond.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The point I am trying to make is-----
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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It is abuse of the English language at its meanest that disturbs me.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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You are suggesting that there is a cover-up and we are trying to protect reputations.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We will have the debate through the Chair.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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That is simply not the case.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Reputations are of more concern to the Government than the welfare of children.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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A number of Deputies would like to contribute. It is a very serious matter. Please allow the Minister of State to speak without being interrupted.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The recommendations will need to be taken on board by the relevant statutory authorities and the Ministers responsible. Regarding their implementation, I am seeking advice on how I can circulate to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children the substance of the recommendations and also ensure that the committee would be satisfied that those recommendations would have been followed through. I cannot say what the outcome of that process will be. It is very serious to have recommendations in this fashion. I am constrained by legal advice, there is no other constraint. I have not directed any redaction. I am doing what I can within the confines of the law, and within the rights of people to their privacy and good name. I am motivated by trying to improve circumstances in social work services for adults and children, and to publish as much of it as possible.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I come back to a question I asked the Minister of State previously and he might do us the courtesy of responding to it fully. Why should the reputation of individuals get priority over the welfare of children? I have previously drawn this matter to the attention of the Minister of State. In order to overcome any legal difficulties with regard to privilege, in 1996 the report into the tragic case of Kelly Fitzgerald was referred to an Oireachtas committee, which then published it. Why can that not be done in this case? To what extent has that option been considered? Does the Minister of State seriously want to stand over the reason for not so proceeding that he gave in a recent Irish Independent article? He said that in the case of the Kelly Fitzgerald report the parents implicated in the report had already pleaded guilty to charges of neglect and the same legal constraint did not apply. Is the Minister of State telling the House that because the parents in that case were convicted of neglect the report could be referred to an Oireachtas committee for publication but because the parents in this case died the report could not be furnished to an Oireachtas committee? Is the Minister of State seriously putting that to us?
I draw to the attention of the Minister of State that the principal recommendation is the provision of the out-of-hours service that the Minister of State has said he would not implement for financial reasons. To what extent can we take seriously any pledge he gives of an intention to implement redacted censored recommendations of which no one in this House has any knowledge?
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I replied to the first question. I do not believe there is a choice between reputations and protecting the interests of children. I believe that is a false dichotomy as I said before.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is the choice the Minister of State relied upon.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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It is possible to do both and it is not an either-or situation. It is a very simplistic analysis of the situation. I have tried to do that. I have tried to protect the reputations and the legal rights of individuals as well as to-----
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Are there any circumstances in which it would be possible to make adverse findings or should nobody be held to account?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Please allow the Minister of State to reply.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I want to publish of as much of the report as possible for the benefit of the general public and health professionals. I recall that the morning after the Monageer report was published, Deputy Shatter admonished the Taoiseach on his lack of historical memory of the Kelly Fitzgerald case. To refresh the Deputy's own memory, the Minister of the time, who was a Fine Gael Member, was heavily criticised for not publishing that report for five months.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The only difference between then and now is Deputy Shatter is sitting on the Opposition benches.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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That is why we solved it.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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He is allowing himself to bathed in self-righteousness in the typical way he addresses this House every time he enters the Chamber.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I solved that problem and criticised that Minister.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Allow the Minister of State to continue.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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In the Kelly Fitzgerald case, of course I am not trying to suggest-----
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The welfare of children comes first, not politics.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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-----that because the tragic Dunne family-----
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State is attacking the messenger and ignoring the issue. That is his only defence these days.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I have a duty to allow free speech in this House. Please do not shout down Members.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State is attempting to make a crass political point-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Please allow the Minister of State to answer.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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-----without realising that I was one of the former Minister's most vigorous critics.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will have no option but to adjourn the debate if Members are not allowed free speech without interruption. Please allow the Minister of State to respond to these very serious questions.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I did not intend to suggest that the tragic deaths of the parents of the Dunne family were distinguishable from the Kelly Fitzgerald case. I was trying to underline that, as Mr. Justice Seán Ryan alludes to in his report, where a conviction has already been achieved there are fewer constraints on the publication of matters causing reputational damage. The publication of the Kelly Fitzgerald report was facilitated for that reason. My legal advice is that the publication of the Monageer report in full would result in reputational damage. I believe the extent of its publication ensures that we have as much information as possible about how this tragedy came about. We lose sight of that in concentrating on matters which are of importance to Members of this House rather than on what we need to learn from the report in regard to our responsibilities as members of the public and health professionals.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We have gone over time but I wish to facilitate other Deputies. I call Deputy Jan O'Sullivan.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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In his initial reply to Question No. 5, the Minister of State noted that he may apprise the Joint Committee on Health and Children of the content of the redacted recommendations of the Monageer report. I put it to him that he will build greater public confidence in the Government's good intentions if he finds a way to publish the recommendations rather than apprise the committee of them. Does he agree that the writers of this report must have intended that the recommendations be studied because they would not have made them otherwise? There is little point in making recommendations if it is not intended for them to be implemented. Is there a way for the Minister of State to publish the recommendations in full, if need be after removing personal references, rather than apprising us of the seven blanked out recommendations?
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to publish as much of this report as possible because I agree that public confidence could be restored by publication. The extent to which it remains redacted will be based on legal advice and I will push as far as I can to ensure the maximum amount is published through whatever device is available to me. I am open to suggestions in this regard from Deputies.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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Presumably whoever wrote the legal recommendation received legal advice.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I put it again to the Minister of State that precedents exist for putting the uncensored report before the Joint Committee on Health and Children so that it can be published under Oireachtas privilege. Apart from the crutch of legal advice, he has not explained why he will not do this. If he rigidly insists on refusing to allow publication of the full report in any form, will he at least publish the uncensored recommendations? How does he expect the HSE to act on the recommendations contained in the Monageer report if only its CEO is able to read them?
The report states that the public health nursing service offered to children under the age of five is critical to the identification of children in need of intervention but that it is unclear whether the systems in place at present are sufficient to this task. Does the Minister of State agree this is a serious admission and will he immediately undertake a review of this service, as recommended, with a view to its development?
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I reiterate that I am seeking legal advice on the extent to which I can apprise the Committee on Health and Children or a sub-committee thereof on the recommendations and whether the committee can prepare a report based on that.
In regard to the specific recommendations to which Deputy Ó Caoláin referred, gaps certainly exist in our child welfare and protection service. That is why I have set this as a priority. We have made significant progress over the past 12 months and for the first time a specific person in the health service will have sole responsibility for the implementation of policy on children and families. A taskforce which is due to report in the coming weeks will standardise the way referrals and assessments of children at risk are conducted. The legacy inherited from the health boards has to be overcome, however. The HSE has announced a review of community nursing and further significant improvements will be made to our child welfare and protection services. Next Tuesday I intend to put before the House a report for 2007 arising from section 8 of the Child Care Act.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Hallelujah. It is only 18 months late.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The 2008 report, which was released recently on foot of a freedom of information request, contains a more detailed analysis of children at risk in various local health service areas. These matters give the HSE and my office opportunities to make a contemporaneous analysis of where problems arise and improvements achieved.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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My question was specific to the public health nursing service for children under the age of five. The report highlights major deficiencies in that regard.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We have used more than double the time allocated to this question. I will allow Deputy Shatter to ask a very brief supplementary question.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Can the Minister of State tell us the number and identity of the people working in the area of children and social services for the HSE who have access to the full and uncensored report and the seven recommendations?
Can he confirm to the House that the terms of reference given to the Monageer inquiry, which was essentially private, are of the same nature as those applied in respect of the Roscommon inquiry into the neglect and abuse of six children over a period of years? Will the latter report be similar censored and redacted and, if so, will he change the format of that inquiry to ensure its reports and recommendations are fully published?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The latter questions asked by the Deputy are beyond the scope of this question and are a matter for another day.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The only person in the HSE who has a full and unredacted version of the report is its CEO, Professor Brendan Drumm.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Nobody working with children knows the seven recommendations or the full content of the report. That is absolutely insane.