Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 70: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the progress made in the Garda investigation into the murder of a person (details supplied) in Limerick on 9 April 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15586/09]

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The killing of Roy Collins is deplored by all right-thinking people and our sympathy is with his family and friends. The killing remains under active investigation by An Garda Síochána in Limerick, with assistance being provided, as required, by Garda national support services. A number of persons have been arrested and detained in the course of the investigation. One person has been charged in connection with this killing and the House will appreciate that consequently I am greatly constrained in what I can say about the specific incident. An Garda Síochána is in ongoing contact with the family of the deceased.

Considerable Garda resources within the Limerick Garda division are targeted at disrupting the activities of the criminal groupings. The regional support unit carries out armed patrols and other units, such as the emergency response unit and the units of national support services are available.

We cannot allow organised criminal gangs to attempt to undermine the criminal justice system. Such behaviour demands a response from the State and such a response will be forthcoming. The publication of the Criminal Justice (Surveillance) Bill last week will strengthen the ability of An Garda Síochána to bring gang members before the courts and offer evidence.

In addition, I have indicated that I am working on a range of other measures to combat intimidation by criminal gangs. These measures include: greater use of the Special Criminal Court; creating new offences of membership of and directing a criminal organisation; making these offences scheduled offences as regards the Special Criminal Court; simplifying the procedures relating to extension of time for questioning of suspects; and increasing the penalties for intimidation of a witness or juror. I expect to submit proposals in this regard to the Government for its approval in the coming weeks.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Minister for his reply and welcome the progress that has been made in respect of this matter. I accept that the Minister is not in a position to comment directly on the case in question. There is absolute abhorrence among the people of Limerick regarding the circumstances and background relating to this crime. In light of the Minister's reply to an earlier question tabled by Deputy Rabbitte in respect of recently announced cutbacks, will the Garda presence in Limerick remain at current levels?

It is clear that the family of the late Mr. Collins has been targeted. In that context, is the Minister carrying out a review in respect of the protection of people who are so targeted? I accept that intensive Garda activity is required when it comes to protecting families that are at risk of attack. Can the Minister give a timeframe for the other measures that will be brought to Cabinet, particularly the offence of directing and belonging to a criminal gang? People expected a quicker response following the murder of Shane Geoghegan, particularly with regard to covert surveillance legislation, which has taken a long time to publish. We need an urgent response. What is the timeframe for these measures?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I hope to go to Government on the other measures soon. I welcome the support of Members of the House, particularly on the necessity for the use of these special arrangements. It must be said the courts in Limerick have been successful in gaining prosecutions because, thankfully, people have come forward. The success rate of prosecutions for gangland crime is better in Limerick than anywhere else.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The rate is down overall.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Having said that, I believe, as does the House, that recent events, not least the murders of Shane Geoghegan and Roy Collins, were an affront to society and to those decent people who were prepared to come forward to give evidence. The State must respond and that is why we are fast-tracking surveillance legislation in the wake of the murder of Shane Geoghegan and the recent murders in the North.

It is not simple legislation because there are significant issues related to privacy and private property, as outlined in the Constitution. That balance must be struck and to be fair to the Attorney General and his staff, we have succeeded, given that it is subject to judicial oversight and authorisation.

There are currently 625 gardaí in Limerick, an increase in the last 18 months of 100. There are 80 gardaí specifically earmarked for certain troubled areas in Limerick. Limerick is one of the most, if not the most, policed areas in the State. The numbers will be kept as high as possible and I do not envisage those numbers being reduced as long as this affront to Irish society exists.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The people of Limerick are outraged about what happened to Roy Collins little over six months after the murder of Shane Geoghegan. The Minister has stated that this is an affront to the people but when will he bring the criminal justice (surveillance) Bill before the House for debate? It has been published, which Fine Gael welcomes, but it must be debated, enacted and fully implemented.

The Minister mentioned making membership of a criminal gang and offence, something I have long called for. When will legislation be introduced to allow for that? The gardaí in Limerick are doing great work but we want to put measures in place to further enable them to prevent any further deaths like those of Roy Collins and Shane Geoghegan.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The legislation will be taken next week or the week after that. There is a convention that we must allow for a two week time lag, as the Opposition always reminds us. I would like to introduce the legislation next week but people must have an opportunity to look at the implications of the Bill.

Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Months have passed since the murder.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is complex legislation.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The murder of Shane Geoghegan took place five months ago. We expected the Bill in the House before this.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Government approved the Bill, subject to some minor drafting, before the murder of Roy Collins.

With regard to the additional measures, I believed, after consultation with the Attorney General, my Department, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea, they were necessary in view of what has happened in recent weeks. I strongly suggest, in the context of potentially moving gangland offences into the Special Criminal Court, that Deputies on all sides of the House give us their information relating to the issue of intimidation of jurors and witnesses. Obviously, under the Constitution we must be extremely careful about deviating from the use of ordinary courts. Empirical evidence to date shows that the courts in Limerick have been reasonably successful, indeed more successful than those in some other areas, in gaining convictions. However, recent events have, in my view, crossed the line and the Oireachtas must respond. It is not a decision we should take lightly but if there are people-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

When will the Minister bring those measures before the House?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy O'Donnell, please allow me to chair the proceedings. I wish to allow two other Deputies to put their questions, although we are over time.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

If there are people who are in fear of intimidation, and I understand from the Garda, the Minister, Deputy O'Dea, and others that there is intimidation of witnesses and jurors, particularly in the context of recent events, and even though we recently changed the legislation relating to the issue of intimidation of witnesses, I am prepared to increase the penalties to more than ten years. That is an important signal. I hope to bring those measures before the Government for approval within weeks.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister asked for information about witness intimidation. I will supply information to him on such a case. The person felt he was coerced to give evidence; he felt he had no other choice. He gave evidence and was posted out of the country in the witness protection programme at very great cost to himself and his family. He is back in the jurisdiction and feels that he is not protected and safe. He believes it has not worked as it ought. I will furnish that information to the Minister after Question Time, in the hope that he will treat it with a little more discretion and confidence than he treated the last information I gave him.

What caused the change of heart in the Department regarding the Garda Síochána (Powers of Surveillance) Bill 2007? I published the Bill in November 2007, and the Minister's predecessor said, in a memorable phrase, that all it would do is "alert the criminals to Garda investigative techniques". That seemed to indicate that both the Department and the Garda Síochána were opposed to evidence gathered in that fashion being made admissible in court. It appears to have taken the murder of Shane Geoghegan and the recent tragedy that befell the Collins family to change the mindset. Will the Minister explain why they have come around to the point of view that the principles I set out in that Bill are what is required?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is the case that there was a change of view in the Garda Síochána, and that long predated the murders of Shane Geoghegan and Mr. Collins. It has to be accepted that for decades the Garda has been using electronic surveillance. Obviously, it is being used to a certain extent without statutory authority. Gardaí have been limited in what they can do given the prohibition in the Constitution relating to the right to private property and the issue of privacy. From that point of view the Garda approached the Department a considerable time ago and stated that it wished to move on this. The Garda wished to have statutory footing to ensure gardaí were not operating contrary to the Constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights.

Equally, the Garda came to the view that there were cases emerging where it might be necessary to use this material as evidence in court. Previously, as the material was, in effect, covert and not regulated and legalised, the Garda could not use it as evidence. Now the Garda will have the option, particularly in the context of gangland crime, to use this as necessary. However, in certain circumstances gardaí might decide not to proffer this as evidence and the Director of Public Prosecutions ultimately might not use it in support of a case.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister speaks about a change of mind or heart and change of policy on the part of Garda Síochána. I wish to ask him about a change of mind and policy on the part of the Government. As recently as last November, following the murder of Shane Geoghegan, the Taoiseach was questioned on the matter. He indicated that there were no plans to introduce legislation on gangland crime. When asked in particular about section 72 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006, relating to the conviction of a person for gang membership, the Taoiseach said the legal advice to the Government was that this was inoperable and perhaps unconstitutional. However, the Minister promised such legislation last week. Why the change? Has he taken legal advice on the matter?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

A final reply from the Minister.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Again, there is no change of heart with regard to any of those matters. What we are examining more intensely is the issue of directing a criminal organisation, which is not covered in existing legislation, and to mirror, in effect, the offences that were introduced after 1998 and the Omagh bombing. That is what we propose to do. There has been a ratcheting up of attacks on and intimidation of people, particularly in the Limerick area, and we must respond to that. Obviously, it is an evolving situation.

The Taoiseach and I, in the aftermath of the Shane Geoghegan killing, were referring to the issue of opinion evidence. While members of the Deputy's party were proposing, quite rightly, that this should be used, I asked the Attorney General to examine the issue again. It had previously been examined in 2006 by the previous Attorney General. The current Attorney General confirmed the view that the courts use opinion evidence very sparingly and require significant corroborative evidence. Hopefully, the passing of the proposed legislation before the summer recess, which I expect the Opposition to facilitate, would be an important tool in adding to that corroborative evidence in the context of opinion evidence subsequently used.