Dáil debates
Wednesday, 8 April 2009
Leaders' Questions
10:30 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yesterday, we saw the introduction of a budget, the need for which the Government did not want to recognise for a long time. It amounts to one of the biggest smash-and-grab raids on middle income families for years.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This budget will puncture the confidence of thousands of Irish families and result in the demise of thousands of small retail businesses because the Government took the easy option. There is no reform of the HSE, no reform of FÁS, no jobs plan and no strategy to get people back to work. All we have is an indication that close to 500,000 people will be out of work next year. The Government has taken the soft option and looked for the easy targets. We now know the Government is to take almost €100 per week from middle income families, who do not sit around the table at social partnership meetings and face the Taoiseach down. These are the voiceless people who are now being put to the wall because of the way the Government has gone about dealing with this budget.
We, in this party, stepped up to the mark to support the bank guarantee scheme. At that time, I had a call from the Minister for Finance at ten past seven in the morning asking me about my attitude towards the bank guarantee, and I said we needed a banking system because it was the lifeblood of commerce in this country. The Taoiseach told us there was no run on Anglo Irish Bank. He told us there was no impropriety in the banking system. He told us he would deal with the issue of bank bonuses and high pay. These statements were not true. After all the consideration the Cabinet has given to this budget, we now know it is going to force middle income families to pay for its mistakes. What will the banks be made to pay for their mistakes? Can the Taoiseach tell us how much he intends to take from the taxpayer to pay banks for dodgy developer debts, which we are now told amount to €90 billion?
P J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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They are safeguarding the fat cats.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I reject the contention by Deputy Kenny that the Government has chosen the soft option. All taxpayers are facing difficulties as a result of the supplementary budget we had to introduce yesterday, and we are cognisant of that. At the same time, however, there is a recognition in the country that these are necessary steps. Bringing order back to our public finances is a absolute prerequisite for economic recovery and I hope people will accept that as the motivation of the Government in coming forward with these proposals.
Further, with regard to Deputy Kenny's mention of soft options, gross expenditure savings in 2009 under this supplementary budget will amount to €1.46 billion in 2009 and €1.8 billion in a full year. That is in addition to savings of €1.8 billion announced by the Government in February and savings and efficiencies of €1 billion announced in July of last year.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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They did not begin saving in time.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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In total, those savings amount to €4.8 billion in the full year. Quite apart from the tax increases, there were also significant expenditure savings which had to be factored into the budgetary equation.
With regard to the Deputy's second point, a policy announcement was made by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, yesterday about how we can restore confidence in the economy and, in particular, protect jobs by quickly restoring a functioning banking system to provide sufficient credit for the demands of businesses as they deal with the difficulties of the recession this year and next. That policy announcement will allow much work to take place. Some work has already been undertaken in terms of due diligence with regard to the loan books of the covered institutions, but more work remains to be done in preparing legislation and so on. The National Treasury Management Agency will this afternoon outline how this will have a positive impact on Ireland's image in debt markets. What we intend to do is to engage in a process of work to isolate the problems that have been identified in the banking system and park them in the asset management agency, which will be the counter-party instead of the bank, although obviously the same obligations to repay will apply. The purpose of this is to ensure the banks themselves can access sufficient funds to meet the credit demands of the economy.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I asked the Taoiseach a straight question. How much does he propose to take from the taxpayer to bail out the banks for dealings on what amount to dodgy developer debts? Deputy English pointed out last night that the staff of the Office of the Financial Regulator, when they appeared before Oireachtas committees, said that the maximum amount involved was €40 billion, but when he asked the Tánaiste to explain how this had suddenly risen to €90 billion there was no answer. The Minister for Finance was also unable to answer the question. What we are being asked to do is to give another blank cheque to Fianna Fáil to bail out the banks. Only the banks are happy this morning.
Paul Kehoe
Michael Kennedy (Dublin North, Fianna Fail)
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Why does the Deputy not name the Galway tent people?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I understand €30 billion was secured on lands and other assets put up by developers when they took this money in the first place. We were told certain things in this House.
Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy told us a lot of things that were not true.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We were told there was no run on Anglo Irish Bank, that there was no impropriety in the banks, and that the Government would deal with the matter of bonuses and so on. These things were untrue, as we now know, as there was a 25% run on Anglo Irish the week before the guarantee came through.
I am entitled to ask this question on behalf of the Irish taxpayer. Yesterday, the Government took €4,600 from middle income families - almost €100 per week - for mistakes made by the Fianna Fáil Party which caused the structural deficit in the economy. That fault was created by the policies of the Fianna Fáil Party but middle income families are being made to pay for it.
I want an answer to my question. How much does the Government expect the Irish taxpayer to have to pay for the acquisition of dodgy debts to banks? Is it €90 billion, €50 billion or €40 billion? The Government is asking us to give it another blank cheque. However, it cannot be trusted in dealing with banks. How much will it take from Irish taxpayers to bail out the banks for these debts?
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Government does not know.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Government is lumping the debts on the backs of Irish taxpayers who were screwed down to the wall yesterday. Their confidence, already deflated, is now punctured completely. Will the Taoiseach tell us how much is involved in this?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry to say that Deputy Kenny's characterisation of the proposal is totally at variance with the facts.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach has only begun to explain. Deputies should allow him to finish.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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In the course of his statement to the House yesterday the Minister for Finance stated:
The potential maximum book value of loans that will be transferred to the agency is estimated to be in the region of €80 billion to €90 billion [although] the amount paid by the agency will be significantly less than this to reflect the loss in value of the properties. In the longer term, if the agency were to fall short of recouping all of the costs, the Government intends that a levy should be applied to recoup any shortfall. All borrowers will be required to meet their full legal obligations for repayment.
That is the first point.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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What does that mean?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy wants the answer to the question, he should listen to what I am saying. As I was explaining, the policy announcement was made yesterday. Work will now proceed in regard to the evaluation of what exactly will be paid. The national asset management agency will purchase the assets through the issue to the banks of Government bonds. The amount paid by the agency will be significantly less than the book value to take account of the agency's estimation of the worth of the loans and to compensate the State for taking on these risks. The banks will have to take the associated losses. That work will now be undertaken. No money will be transferred to anybody until the estimation of the national asset management agency has been undertaken, after which we will proceed with the transfer.
Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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The banks are being given a blank cheque.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Government is codding itself if it thinks it will recover €90 billion from the banks.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have called Deputy Gilmore.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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At the outset, on my own behalf and on behalf of the Labour Party, I extend our sympathy to the family, friends and colleagues of the late Garda Robbie McCallion whose life passed away tragically yesterday.
Today and tomorrow we will have an opportunity to have a long debate on the budget, on the extent to which the Government has screwed working families on modest incomes, on the decision to take mortgage interest relief from householders in negative equity and to take the Christmas bonus from pensioners and others on social welfare, and on how this budget does little or nothing to sustain jobs or stimulate job creation in our economy. There is one aspect of the Supplementary Budget Statement I wish to pursue with the Taoiseach. It arises from what Deputy Kenny has been saying. This is the plan by the Government to take all the property which represents their bad debts off the hands of developers.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gilmore should be allowed to continue without interruption.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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As I understand it, the plan is that the Government will use Government bonds to take off the hands of these property speculators and developers-----
Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gilmore is taking rubbish.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----the half finished apartment blocks we see everywhere, the empty hotels and office blocks and the land that was bought at exorbitant prices on borrowed money from the banks. This represents the so-called bad debts we are talking about.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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We are talking about assets, bad debts and toxic debts. The property that was bought by property speculators with borrowed money will now be bought back with Government bonds at taxpayers' expense.
Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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What has Deputy Thomas Byrne to say about the corruption in east Meath?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Business people who are pushed to the pin of their collar to keep going or whose businesses have gone under because banks will not lend them the credit they need must wonder what the developers have at their disposal that they do not, given that the Government is prepared to take their property off their hands and relieve them of their bad debts.
Not only will the Government buy back the property these people speculated on in this country but it also intends to buy back the property on which they speculated abroad, including the shopping centres in Birmingham, the apartment blocks in Bulgaria, the hotels in Dubai and the retirement villages in Florida. We are told in the questions and answers document circulated yesterday that these properties will be bought back by the Government with Government bonds at taxpayers' expense.
Of the €80 billion to €90 billion the Government estimates these loans equate to on the books of the banks, how much relates to property abroad? Of the property abroad, can the Taoiseach tell us how much of it is property that was bought by Irish developers abroad and how much was bought by property developers abroad who borrowed the money from Irish banks? It is bad enough that we are buying up all these half finished developments in this country and the fields around towns and villages that will not be developed for many years but which may have been rezoned by the owners' friends on local councils. Can the Taoiseach explain to the Irish people why the Government is buying up property abroad which was speculated upon by property developers here and abroad? How much of the €80 billion to €90 billion is represented by property abroad?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The question of the categories and classes of assets is work that will be undertaken by the national asset management agency upon its establishment. It will work with the banks to see which are the appropriate assets to be taken over. What we had yesterday was a policy announcement. I made this point in the debate last night and I wish to put it clearly to the House once more.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach must be allowed to respond to Deputy Gilmore. The Deputy was listened to with respect and silence. I expect the same respectful silence for the Taoiseach.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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For goodness sake, let him answer the question.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Much work has been undertaken by the National Treasury Management Agency, the Department of Finance and by those who advise both bodies, including PricewaterhouseCoopers, Jones Lang LaSalle and others who have been employed during the due diligence process in examining the loan books of the covered institutions. It is estimated by these people that the book value is of the order of €80 billion to €90 billion.
John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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How can the Government introduce a scheme when it has no idea of the scope or extent of it?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There is a simple point to be made about this. Deputy Gilmore referred to the need to maintain jobs in this economy. If we are to maintain jobs and get back to the functioning economy we all want to see, there must be a functioning banking system. Every businessman trying to maintain and grow jobs requires access to sufficient credit in order to do his business and grow his enterprise.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is not possible at the present time due to the overhang in the banking system. It is what it is and it must be dealt with. Refusal to deal with it, as has been the Labour Party's view in regard to every proposal since we sought to deal with these problems-----
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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The wrong people are being asked to pay for these mistakes.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Refusal to deal with it means the problem will continue and credit will not be available in sufficient funds to Irish business. We must deal with that problem. We are simply talking about transferring that problem into the national asset management agency which will work it out over a longer period. In respect of any loss that might arise as a result of that process, there will be a levy on those institutions in any case. We are seeking to protect the taxpayers' interest at every turn.
James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Who will pay for it?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The problem will not be resolved by simply complaining and not doing anything about it. It has to be resolved on the basis of the consensus advice available from both the National Treasury Management Agency and the Department of Finance.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Those who advise confirm that this is the best way to deal with the problem that we have. It is similar to what Sweden had to do in the 1990s-----
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The same people who provided the advice before.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----and to what other economies had to do when there was a banking crisis.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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We will end up-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is what we have to do. We must face up to it and get on with doing the job, taking the best advice from those who work for us in this area. If there is one agency that has been a resounding success in terms of carrying out the remit given to it by the State it is the National Treasury Management Agency.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is correct. It picked up responsibility for 1977-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have full confidence in that organisation setting up this agency for the purpose outlined so that we can try to get back to the real economic effects brought about by the current situation.
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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What about the proportion?
Ned O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach will recall property valuations.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Gilmore, without interruption, please.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Let us return to the question - how much of the property that will bought up with Government bonds is property abroad?
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is worth nothing.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That is the question to which I would like an answer.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Nothing has been decided.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Government has already estimated that the total amount will be €80 billion to €90 billion. The Government has engaged, since the introduction of the bank guarantee, PricewaterhouseCoopers to examine the banks' accounts. We have had reports and studies on the banks and due diligence. The Government has had since September, which is a long time, to identify what the banks have or do not have and the extent of bad debts on their loan books and so on.
I agree with the Taoiseach on the need to create jobs. Whatever justification there may be for all of this property that was speculated on and what contribution it may potentially have made to the Irish economy in terms of jobs if it were here, I cannot see what will be the contribution to the Irish economy if the property is abroad------
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is a good point.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----or what will be the contribution to the Irish economy to have Government bonds used to buy up property abroad. We know the amount of bad debt is estimated to be €80 billion to €90 billion. I want to know how much of that is represented by properties abroad. I want an explanation on why the Government is going to use Government bonds, backed by the taxpayer, to buy up these apartments. This appears to be news to the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cúiv.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy does not understand the process.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Clearly, it is news------
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gilmore without interruption, please.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----to many of the Government Deputies. It is dealt with in Question No. 2 of the Government's questions and answers document-----
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy does not understand the process.
Seán SherlockEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----issued by the Department of Finance yesterday. I will quote it for the Deputy.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The question states: "Will land and development loans outside of Ireland be transferred to NAMA?"
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The answer to the question is: "Yes, land and development loans outside of Ireland will be eligible for transfer to NAMA."
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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If Deputy Gilmore reads on, he will see the answer to the question. Read on.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Government should read its own document.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must ask-----
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I have asked a question of the Taoiseach which I want him to answer.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Government did not read its own document.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We read it last night. The Government did not read it before the budget.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The rationale is there.
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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The proportion is not given and Deputy Ó Cúiv knows that. He knows it in Irish and in English and he can tell his colleagues about it.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Excuse me, Deputy Gilmore, I cannot allow this to descend into a farce. I must insist that any Member addressing another Member do so through the Chair. In any event, no Member other than-----
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle should tell that to Deputy Martin.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I say it to the Minister, Deputy Martin and to everybody else to whom it applies. This is Leaders' Questions-----
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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-----and only Leaders may ask questions to which the Taoiseach responds.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Ceann Comhairle should tell that to the Ministers.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is the way it works.
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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It will be more of the same tomorrow and we are not looking forward to it.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Gilmore, without interruption please.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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A Cheann Comhairle, we are here on a morning when working people on modest incomes are being screwed to pay for the mistakes made by Fianna Fáil during 12 years in government.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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For six months now, in dealing with the banks and development, this Government has been protecting and cosseting friends who brought down the Irish economy.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Some of those friends have been investing and dabbling in property abroad. Guess what? They are now going to use the Irish taxpayer and Government bonds to bail out the developments, the bad debts incurred for developments in Bulgaria, Dubai, Florida, Latvia and so on, none of which would have contributed anything to the Irish economy.
I want to know from the Taoiseach how much of that €80 billion to €90 billion concerns property abroad?
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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That is a straight question.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I say to Deputy Gilmore, in all seriousness, I reject with contempt-----
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Answer the question.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As I said last night, we have a serious issue to deal with. We can have our agreements and disagreements on the way forward but I will not accept from any Deputy, however prominent-----
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Read the tribunal reports.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----any suggestion that we are doing anything other than seeking to protect the public interest of this country-----
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Read the tribunal reports.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----and to ensure we get back to an economy that continues to grow and to protect jobs.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I hold no brief for any individual inside or outside this House in this matter other than to discharge my responsibilities conscientiously.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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How much property abroad is involved?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I regard with contempt the continuing innuendo the Deputy is quick to throw around.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please allow the Taoiseach to finish his reply.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It does nothing for this debate or the country.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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How much property abroad is involved?
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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What is the proportion?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, I will not be barracked. I will try to answer the questions asked to the best of my ability. I want to make clear to Deputy Gilmore that if he contends there is any validity in what he has just said he is then making the same charge against those in the National Treasury Management Agency, the Department of Finance and everyone else who advises Government in this matter.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is how contemptuous that is. Hopefully, that is the last time we will have to listen to that type of cant and nonsense. I know what the Deputy's game is.
Emmet StaggBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is a political tactic.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is a game. The Deputy is playing a very serious game with Ireland's reputation.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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This is our country too.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach without interruption, please.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I want to make it clear that the purpose of this initiative is to try to get back to a situation whereby credit is provided to Irish business.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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On the €80 billion to €90 billion book value, the National Treasury Management Agency will be in a position this afternoon to answer any questions in terms of detail in respect of this matter.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is clear to me and to the agency that the purpose of this is to clean up the balance sheets so that we can get back to good business. On the other matter regarding whether we are in a position to save the banks or whether we should be-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Quinn, please allow me to answer the question.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have already answered that aspect of the question. I have stated that the National Treasury Management Agency will, this afternoon, provide any detail required.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Deputy Cowen is the Taoiseach.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am Taoiseach and I am indicating to Deputy Quinn that the policy announcement made yesterday is the right approach to deal with this matter despite any objections he may have.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach should just answer the question.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is the same as saying that we rather than the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who provides guarantees to the Ulster Bank or HBOS in Ireland, should have taken them over. One either deals with the problem and the asset classes regardless of location in terms of cleaning up the banks or one does not. One either fixes the problem or does not. One either deals with the situation as it, or one does not. The Opposition is not interested in solving the problem-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Government is interested in solving the problem.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The last budget did not work, what makes the Government think this one will?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We now move on to Financial Resolutions by the Minister for Finance.