Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The majority of these resolutions provide for increases in capital taxation. I share the view that capital taxes in Ireland should be considerably higher because it is wrong to tax income from work at such a high rate while taxing wealth not gained through work, such as inheritance or capital gains on property, at a lower rate. That is why I have no difficulty in seeking significant increases in capital taxes provided that they form part of a wider package involving reduced taxes on income.

These resolutions, however, merely comprise yet another major tax grab by the Fianna Fáil led Government. Death and gift taxes are being increased, as are taxes on life assurance and savings. These come on top of the horrendous increases in tax on work through PRSI increases, the Lenihan levy, the health levy, excise increases and the previous budget's increases on VAT and taxes on second homes and parking spaces. The Minister for Finance has indicated his intention to tax children and homes in the next budget. I have not even mentioned the travel tax on those flying to this country. The Government's entire economic and budgetary strategy appears to be tax and more tax. My party opposes this view because we do not think one can tax one's way out of recession. A much more sophisticated approach is required. First, one needs to control spending. The adjustment should come two thirds from spending and one third from tax increases. Some measures also need to be included which will stimulate demand and employment. We have put those views across for reducing both VAT rates, abolishing the travel tax, and bringing the pension fund back home to invest in infrastructure and new State enterprises. The Government's strategy, however, is just about tax.

What really defines this budget and the entire policy is subhead C15 which refers to gross current expenditure at €62.4 billion this year, €64.5 billion in 2010, €65.4 billion in 2011, €67.4 billion in 2012, and €68.9 billion in 2013. It is spend, spend, spend and when the Government has finished doing that, let us spend some more. How will the Government manage that? It will hit people on tax. Tax revenue will be €34.4 billion this year, €35.3 billion in 2010, €38.9 billion in 2011, €41.3 billion in 2012 and €43.73 billion in 2013. This is the budget that Fidel Castro or Kim Il Sung would have eaten their hearts out for. These are the pure tax-and-spend, old-fashioned policies of the early 1980s, the kind of failed policies that ended up with a national debt of 120% of our gross domestic product, unemployment of 20% and a recession-depression for the best part of a decade. That is where the Government is going.

We have learned nothing from our economic history in this State if we think this kind of approach will work. It will not work because the Government will not get the returns from tax increases that it expects. It will find out that these attempts to tax everything that is not already taxed while taxing everything else more will not bring increased revenues. It will drive money out of the country and drive people out of jobs. The Government will have to come back here either in three or six months' time with a new budget that involves some of the measures that are necessary, including reduced spending. One cannot increase spending from €46.3 billion to €54.5 billion in five years. The Government has already spent too much. We already spend 48% of our gross national product, our national income, on public spending. It will be well over 50% within two years, so the Government cannot go on like this.

Tax and spend is not the solution. That is my argument in a nutshell when it comes to these particular issues. We will certainly be voting against this. I could countenance increases in capital taxes if they were part of a process that involved reducing taxes at work but certainly not in this scenario. This policy will lead us to ruin. It is back to the 1980s.

Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is extraordinary that this is the Government's economic policy. I cannot believe it. We will be back here very soon.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The batch of financial resolutions before us covers quite a wide range. If taxes on income are to increase - and they clearly are in this budget in the form of the increased income levy and changes in PRSI - then there is a consistent logic in applying similar increases at least to capital taxes. On the issue of capital acquisitions tax, I understand why and I agree that in times when property values are falling the threshold for capital acquisitions tax should also be reduced. I have some difficulty however in following the logic of what is being done here. The Tánaiste took us through the reductions which are being made and then took us through the upward adjustments that are then being made on that figure in line with indexation. I am not entirely clear how that indexation works, so she might return to it in her reply.

The Labour Party does not have any difficulty with the increase in the rate of capital acquisitions tax from 22% to 25%. I suppose the same logic applies to capital gains tax, although I am surprised at the yield the Tánaiste suggested would arise from that increase. Given the extent to which capital gains are not being made at the moment and also the likely impact on transactions, the estimated yield is probably on the optimistic side.

I note the Tánaiste said there was a policy to have a consistent level of capital taxes at 25% in the context of the Government's policy to widen the tax base. When he was presenting the budget, the Minister for Finance indicated that it was intended to introduce a property tax, probably in the next budget but certainly in a future budget. From what the Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance have said, can we anticipate that the level of a property tax will also be at 25% whenever it is introduced?

I do not agree with the proposed increase in DIRT, which is a tax on people's savings. In this context, we are talking about people, many of whom have worked hard all their lives and have paid their taxes. The savings which attract DIRT are after-tax income. Many pensioners have seen the value of their private pensions decline. People were advised in pre-retirement courses to take out shares in banks, but have seen the value of those declining. This is a further tax on pensioners who have lost their entitlement to the medical card and may have some small savings on deposit. It is not something with which I can agree.

As I understand the stamp duty changes in financial resolution No. 10, the effect of the proposed increases is that the levy on life insurance will increase. In addition, the levy on mortgage insurance will increase, which will drive up the mortgage bill. Mortgage holders who have been benefiting from a reduction in mortgages, which is welcome, will find themselves facing a double whammy on their mortgages as a result of this budget. They will lose their mortgage interest relief and the insurance portion of the mortgage will be increased. Similarly, this resolution will also increase the cost of motor insurance, which comes on top of an increase in the price of diesel, thus hitting people whose pay packets are already being hit. When one adds up all the different hits on a person at work, they include the cost of travelling to work, the loss of the early childhood supplement, a large reduction in income as a result of levies, the loss of mortgage interest relief, an increase in mortgage insurance, and increased diesel and motor insurance costs. The Labour Party agrees with some of the proposals contained in this batch of financial resolutions, such as the change in the capital acquisitions tax threshold and the rate of capital taxation, but other measures are unfairly impacting on people.

I wish to make a final comment in respect of what Deputy Varadkar said and I understand the point he is making. The Government envisages that tax revenues in 2013 will be €43.7 billion. If our economy is in such a state that it will only produce tax revenues of €43.7 billion by 2013, we have a much greater problem than we believe. The Government has argued that as a result of what it is doing, it will restore order to the public finances, the economy will recover and people will presumably return to work and start spending again. We have had a large decrease in our tax revenue not because of our tax rates but because people are losing their jobs and fewer people are paying income tax. As a result of job losses and concerns about the future, people are not spending as they did previously and there has been a significant decrease in revenues from expenditure taxes. We also know what has happened to the property market, with the consequential decline in taxes from transactions.

If there is not a bigger recovery in tax revenues by 2013 than the €9 billion provided for in the projections, the budget will not have been a road map to recovery but, at best, a "business as business is" in 2009 and we are in for a much grimmer period economically than the Government has suggested might be the case. The Labour Party certainly hopes for and wants an economic recovery such that as a result either of increased domestic economic activity and, hopefully, an upturn in the global economy, tax revenues - by virtue of buoyancy and the activity that will take place in the economy - will have improved much more substantially than projected in the Government's figures.

Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste is faced with a diversity of opinion on this side of the House. I have no problem with the change in capital acquisitions tax and not much difficulty with the change in capital gains tax. However, I have a major problem with the introduction of a levy on life assurance policies and the increase in the levy on non-life assurance policies. The vast majority of those fortunate enough to be able to take out a mortgage from a financial institution are required, upon doing so, to take out a life assurance policy. As part of the deal, it is unavoidable. Such people already face a problem arising from the decision in the budget to slash mortgage interest relief after seven years. As a result of the economic downturn they are in substantial difficulty. The ordinary person in the street will be forced to dip even deeper into their pockets to meet the cost of the new levy and the increase in levy on non-life assurance. I have a major problem with this measure because it is grossly unfair to catch people in this manner.

The Tánaiste travels around the country as much or more than any Member of the House and will be aware that people are in serious trouble. This is not a cliché but a statement of fact. We know the overwhelming majority of people with mortgages, most of which are substantial coming off the back of the boom, are genuinely struggling. As with many other aspects of the budget, the Government's strategy, in introducing this measure, was to take a short-sighted, individualistic and blinkered option. It chose to grab €140 million from people who, if they are lucky enough to get mortgages, will have to pay a substantial amount. This is an unfortunate decision, particularly when measured against the broad range of tax measures.

On the one hand, one has the ordinary Joe and Josephine soap who have to dig deep to pay for life insurance, while on the other end of the income scale we have people who can employ tax consultants to provide the best of advice - in their terms - to enable their clients to get off very lightly. The position is grossly unfair. The Government's stab in the dark, as it were, in raiding a particular pocket was extremely short-sighted. The budget did not contain any strategic long-term measures.

I do not have a problem with the increase in DIRT tax which probably does not go far enough. Deputy Varadkar argued that Government policy was one of tax and spend. The Budget Statement indicates that savings in transport will amount to €300 million, including a reduction of €150 million or 8% in investment in roads.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is referring to capital investment, which I accept will be cut.

Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is fair enough but we must examine what the Government is doing on the expenditure side because the cutbacks are scary.

The centrepiece of this budget should have been job retention and job creation. Deputy Gilmore and I both made the point that the revenue stream will not improve unless we maintain existing jobs and create new jobs to cater for the 370,000 people on the live register. As ever more people join the dole queues, the drain on revenue through unemployment benefits and welfare payments becomes larger. This is the element of the budget that disappoints me most. I do not say this to make a party political point but because I genuinely believe the jobs issue needs to be tackled most. While we can argue about the other issues, the crisis will not begin to bottom out until such time as the issues of job retention and job creation are addressed.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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It is probably appropriate in the discussion on this group of proposals to say something about wealth and I am encouraged to do so by the Tánaiste. The first thing that strikes one when one looks at the yield across the ten measures is the relatively low figure they produce when aggregated. In assessing the budget one should contrast each one of these low figures with the high yield figures arising from the cuts and the implications on the other side of the budget speech.

I ask the Tánaiste to respond to one or two points I will make. Will she explain the reason there is such antipathy to the study of wealth in the Department of Finance and other Departments? I tabled a question to the Minister for Finance recently asking how many studies had been carried out in the past ten years on the transfer pattern and accretion of wealth. The answer, when one deconstructs it, was that hardly any studies had been done on wealth. The reason I asked the question is that most of the commentary in the financial press in the run in to the budget concentrated on the balance between, on the one hand, what would be its impact on income and what needed to be done by way of raising tax and, on the other, what cuts in expenditure should be made, with considerable emphasis on the high proportion of expenditure on the social welfare budget. There was, however, almost a deadly silence about wealth and what took place during what is described as the Celtic tiger. The former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, travels the world talking about how he built the Celtic tiger.

It is very interesting to note what has happened to the wealth accumulated during the Celtic tiger. I throw in, as a casual comment, a statement of the obvious, namely, that property values have fallen. Nevertheless, property values increased dramatically as a result of the disgraceful decisions taken by the former Minister for Finance, Mr. Charlie McCreevy, when he was a Member of the House. For example, I saw a figure on what happened when capital gains tax was reduced. A great deal of the money went into property straight away. In 1981, for example, housing related property was valued at €39 billion whereas this figure had increased to €553 billion in 2006. Perhaps that is irrelevant to many people. What was happening in between with that money?

I will, on another occasion, go into the implications of claiming to have a successful economy. Today ours is referred to by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Lenihan as one of the best in the world in the final paragraph of his speech. In fact, there was high growth rate and exports had flattened out. Why was the Government doing that? It was because it was revaluing the property base of the economy. This was preceded by a whole series of transactions from which people made an enormous amount of money. I understand one of the reports of the Revenue Commissioners suggests the cost from 1999 to 2006 of urban renewal was some €1.423 billion. Where is there a single line in this budget that suggests there is any clawback by way by of capital regained from the people who benefited from that?

In 2003 three of the top 400 earners had reduced their effective tax to zero and 48 others had kept their tax liability under 5%. Has the Government gone after any of these people? Building car parks, spas and so forth were the top choices of such people who referred to "effective tax" and were advised by people on tax avoidance. A total of 86% of the people who benefited from that policy earned more than €200,000. I fire these figures in to show it is not a case of "we" lived beyond our means and suddenly have to reduce our income, as the Minister for Finance said, to 2007, 2005 or 2003 levels.

Some people did awfully well. I would be less than I honest if I did not say the Tánaiste's party knew many of them very well. She knew the people who benefited from urban renewal.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thought the Deputy's party were champagne socialists.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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I will be very direct about it, in so far as she encourages me to be. The banking element of the budget follows the consequences of the speculative economy abroad to the four winds to try to suggest we, as taxpayers, must recover stability in a banking system which was ransacked by people who behaved disgracefully.

Let us be clear about why we are raising all of this. What does it cost per day to run the country? It costs some €55 million. We borrow a significant proportion of that and pay two or three points over the borrowing rate because of Mr. FitzPatrick and his little toxic clique. The Tánaiste knows that toxic clique and it was well placed across the corporate sector and all of the banks.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is a charge I will not accept.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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After I have listened to all the guff today, the various banking elite are still in place. We will return to that issue another day.

I wish to discuss capital gains tax. This Government, which created the problems the budget is addressing, has no interest in wealth. It is one of the great scandals that the media has neglected. It is as if it does not matter. Once one has it, one can hide it. Once one has made one's gains from all of the different schemes available, it does not matter. Who are the easy people to go after? The laziest way to go after the people most easily targeted is through levies. One can even achieve this in an eight month period. On the expenditure side one can get rid of the Christmas bonus.

What about all the people who shifted, when capital gains tax was initially reduced, into property? They borrowed from banks which were not real banks but were, in fact, speculators' clubs. What we had, and what the former Taoiseach describes around the world as the most successful economy in the world, had moved from being a real economy with a real banking system into a speculative economy that had a little racket going for people who were shifting their balances from one balance sheet to another at the end of the year.

I appreciate the detail which the Minister and Members of the Government go into to explain the yield and everything like that. I acknowledge the officials are preparing real figures and there are exceptions. Auditing, accountancy and public finance have been significantly degraded by the people involved in auditing accounts in our banking system. It has reached a point where they have not only dragged the economy down but have dragged fine professions down too. That is the real truth of it. The changes and the different ways we have to respond to different property values are like discussing Hamlet without the ghost. I am very interested to hear the Tánaiste being realistic in replying to what I have to say.

I ask the Tánaiste to tell me what studies have been carried out regarding wealth, the contribution of transfer patterns regarding the increase in wealth and the Commission on Taxation. Will the commission suggest how the Government can claw back money from those who abused every one of the property related, tax driven systems? It is a small group of people. How will the Government access the wealth? It has not all gone away. These are real issues. To be frank, most of the other issues are simply small potatoes which could waste our time late at night when there is no political intention or will to ever address the question of making those who are wealthy contribute in the same way as people who pay income tax or who are trying to benefit from the other side of transfers.

The phrase used in the financial press is that one is looking at the "transfer pattern". When it editorialises and questions, one finds it is talking about social welfare. There has been another major transfer pattern. There are people who reduced their tax contribution to the State in effective tax terms, in some cases to zero and other cases to nearly 5%, not to speak of the several thousand who moved themselves out of the country altogether and who were happy to have an Irish passport but were unwilling to pay their tax. These are the people who are the real scum of our society.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I want to refute the charge made by Deputy Higgins but I can discuss it later.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I support the remarks of my party leader and Deputy Higgins. The story of the budget has been one of a savage attack on the incomes of working people in particular and on people who live on social welfare benefits. That is its fundamental impact.

There is major anger which is now boiling over in people and we have heard it on the phones and in e-mails. I met a person who was weeping thinking about the kind of threats and implementation in the social welfare budget today. It is something the Tánaiste should be profoundly aware of because the tumbril is coming for her and the Government. This budget marks a watershed and the public will feel the need for vengeance on 5 June and on any other date the Government decides to seek a mandate.

I did not have the opportunity over the six or seven months of this intense financial crisis to make the point that this Government has no mandate. When people voted two years ago, if they voted for anything they made a last minute decision to stick with the then Taoiseach, for whatever reason. They were not happy with who they thought might be the alternative Taoiseach. They stuck with the then Taoiseach and we then got a Government nobody had voted for, led by Deputy Cowen, the Tánaiste and a number of senior Ministers. The Government has no mandate whatsoever to introduce these fundamental changes. It is a Government that has an air almost of illegitimacy about it because people have not had a chance to vote on these matters and take decisions about where the country should go. If a general election was held, no matter what the outcome, people would be prepared to consider all the options prepared by such a Government. However, the Government does not have that backing, as our spokesperson said, and that is a fundamental problem for our democracy.

It is a pity we do not have the report of the Commission on Taxation in assessing the resolutions. It must be said that the resolutions on capital gains propose relatively minor changes. It is striking that the most important change to capital taxation was made by former Deputy McCreevy, who slashed the rate. Due to the massive property bubble the resulting gains to the Exchequer were considerable, although that was not predicted by the Department of Finance. Looking at the overall figures put forward on the capital side by the Department, one can see that for the rest of this year a return of €61 million is predicted, but who can believe the predictions of the Department of Finance? I have a fundamental problem with the management of our economy by that Department over the past 12 years. I have raised the issue of forecasting by the Department at the Committee of Public Accounts, of which I am a member, and I will be delighted to raise it in two or three weeks' time when the Secretary General and his staff come before us again. I will ask them to provide an account for the whole financial system over the past 12 years. What on earth happened to the senior Department of State when casino banking took over our banking system, wrecked this economy-----

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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-----and indebted our people for decades and perhaps generations? Was the Department of Finance on the bridge when that happened? How can I accept its predictions when it has been wrong year after year on so many issues, including tax returns and gross domestic product? Will the yield, for example, be a great deal higher than it predicts? We had the balance right when we were in the territory of 40% capital taxation, whereby people who had made serious gains were required to give some of that super-normal profit back to the people, the community and the State. The former Taoiseach, Deputy Ahern, the former Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, and former Deputy McCreevy dismantled all that during their great 11-year regime. They ran the budget on a phoney basis, relying on the property bubble. That is the central problem we experienced. Today we are told, and we will be told over the next week, that working families on €40,000 or €50,000 and much less will be paying for this for the rest of their lives. That is what the Minister has done in his pay-back budget, and the Government will be paid back on 5 June - it had better believe it.

I do not know where Deputy Varadkar has been over the past year and a half or two years, but his Milton Friedman-Chicago school economic system has collapsed. It has fallen apart; it has failed.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should vote for the budget then.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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It does not work anymore. We are now trying desperately to rebuild a different model. There were parts of the world in which that rotten, corrupt style of capitalism, the Anglo-Saxon model, never really took hold. One could cite, for example, the Scandinavian democracies. Proudly led, for the most part, by Labour Party or social democratic Governments, they were prepared to find the right balance of taxation, including capital taxation, to provide high employment economies with large budgets and considerable spending on health, education, welfare and public transport, whatever was necessary for those states. We, unfortunately, had the kind of Government Deputy Varadkar still seems to yearn for.

I agree with the comments of my colleagues with regard to DIRT and the implications of the second last resolution increasing the levy on non-life insurance premiums, which will surely be another deflationary influence and will make things that little bit harder. Tonight many people following this debate will say this is the straw that broke the camel's back. This must end. Working people cannot support this approach anymore. Therefore, I say to the Tánaiste, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance that, in the words of the AIB shareholders, they should just go. Let us have an election and a proper Government with a mandate, which will bring in policies that will suit the whole country.

Michael Noonan (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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I do not know about Deputy Varadkar's attitude to Milton Friedman, but it was the great American investor Warren Buffett who said recently that it is only when the tide goes out one can see who is swimming naked. After 12 years with the tide in, it has now gone out, and Fianna Fáil is swimming naked tonight.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It is better to have me that way than the Deputy.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Is it a good idea to talk about who is naked?

Michael Noonan (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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I think the water is colder off Donegal than around my way.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should be down my way.

Michael Noonan (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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They have the Gulf Stream.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Actually, we could tax that.

Michael Noonan (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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They can hop in and out in Cahirciveen every day.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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There is a chill wind blowing.

Michael Noonan (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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The constituency calls are coming in already and I have just one question to ask the Minister, which is with regard to the withdrawal of tax reliefs for nursing homes. I do not want to comment on the merits or demerits of the issue, but will the measure apply from midnight tonight or will provision be made for persons who have poured foundations? Will they have to go up to the wall and template? Will they get it with full planning permission? It seems that anyone who has made arrangements to the extent of obtaining full planning permission should get the relief. If they do not get it they will not build anyway so there is no loss to the Exchequer, but there is a possibility of extra nursing home beds being provided in certain cases. The Minister's colleague, the former Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, might be interested as well because the same provision gives tax relief for PPPs for private hospitals. Some of these would have gone to planning permission stage and some of them would have made financial arrangements. Thus, we would both be interested in the answer to that question, although perhaps for different reasons. I am particularly interested in nursing homes, but there are certainly implications for private hospital projects as well. I presume there is some transitional measure. As there is no financial resolution, I assume the measure will not come in from midnight tonight.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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No.

Michael Noonan (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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Consequently, the provisions must be made in the Finance Bill. Will the Minister indicate whether these have been worked out?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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There will be transitional measures, which will be dealt with in the context of the Finance Bill. Although it would be appropriate to speak to the officials in order to have absolute clarity, the transitional measures will address the concerns raised by the Deputy.

Michael Noonan (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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One must be reasonable. Deputy Morgan said we may not necessarily get agreement from all sides of the House when it comes to the issues we are discussing here in an amalgamation of all the financial resolutions. This is correct. I would normally concur with Deputy Varadkar's views on capital gains. A tax on capital would be the preferred option in normal circumstances, but unfortunately we are not in normal circumstances as we have had to deal with major difficulties in our public finances. However, I accept his view that increasing CGT and CAT is the right thing to do. It is a question of widening the tax base.

Deputy Gilmore raised the issue of property tax. The Minister for Finance indicated that it is intended to examine the introduction of such a tax. That has not been finalised by the Government but the Commission on Taxation will put forward its views in the autumn and we will work through how best it can be implemented.

I have been in this House many years and have listened on many occasions to Deputy Higgins speak about issues to which he clearly has an emotional attachment, particularly in regard to foreign policy and aid. He and I may not be in agreement in terms of our views on various aspects of social policy, but I appreciate his views. However, it is slightly disingenuous to talk about the Nordic model of social policy. In places such as Sweden, although one can spend a great deal of money in providing social services on the back of extreme wealth, diversity is the way in which any culture or any family can make decisions. Having a situation where one can determine by diktat how people are reared or how they live is not necessarily a good social policy.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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That is not the Swedish model.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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It is nothing to do with the Swedish model.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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There is a social policy model whereby there may be good social services but it is the Government which dictates that everybody must do X, Y and Z.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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In what country is that model in place?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Tánaiste should be allowed to continue without interruption.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I am saying there is need to have a greater diversity of opinion in respect of our social policy as opposed to the Nordic model-----

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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I was not aware that the Government had any social policy.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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-----not to mention the expense attaching to the latter and the fact that personal taxation in the Nordic model is astronomical.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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The Government is in favour of some degree of inequality, as espoused by the former Minister, Mr. Michael McDowell.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that the Labour Party has a certain view about wealth. I cannot articulate that view in such a way as to ensure I am not thrown out of the House.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The Labour Party is of the view that wealth should be shared.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies Higgins and Broughan should be reminded that in recent years, the Department of Finance has evaluated the issue of tax evasion measures. The Minister has introduced procedures whereby we can move away from non-productive means of investment. Deputy Higgins raised one specific case in this regard. It is often forgotten that in the last budget we introduced a situation whereby everybody would be liable for an effective income tax rate of approximately 20%. This supplementary budget deals with the removal of other shelters. As he indicated in his speech, this will be the continued view of the Minister for Finance.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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I asked about wealth studies.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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As I said to Deputy Gilmore, the Commission on Taxation will deal with that issue. We must await the outcome of the commission's deliberations so that we can ensure broadening of the tax base.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Government is using the commission as a cover for its lack of ideas.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is the best way forward. The Commission on Taxation has given a great deal of time, energy and effort to listen, evaluate, analyse and discuss. It will bring forward its report in the autumn, at which stage the Government will make a decision on the broadening of the tax base. The Labour Party or any other party is more than welcome to make a submission to the commission, as many others have done.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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Why did the Government not study wealth when there was wealth to be studied?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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We must await the outcome of the deliberations by the Commission on Taxation before introducing any further taxation measures in the next budget.

I have listened to Deputy Varadkar speaking for the past hour and a half in the course of which he referred several times to another budget. I am sorry to disappoint him in this regard but it is not the Government's intention to introduce a further budget. That is important to say in the context of the decisions we are making today. Deputy Varadkar stated that there should have been greater reductions in spending, while Deputy Morgan was of a contrary view. These are the disparate views we are likely to encounter from different sides of the House. The reality is that expenditure has been reduced considerably.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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No, it has not. The Tánaiste has not even read the budget.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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We have dealt with both capital and current expenditure.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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There have been some cuts in specific areas but overall expenditure has increased.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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We have also dealt with the issue of taxation. This has been done on the basis of very difficult decisions. No Member of this House would take from that. The Minister for Finance referred in his opening remarks to the difficulties arising from the impact of these decisions on individuals and families. I agree that sustaining employment and creating export growth is the only way to trade ourselves out of this situation.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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There is no mention of that in the budget.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy missed the discussion on aspects of the budget that are outside the scope of these financial resolutions. For example, in the case of my Department, more than €500 million will be spent this year on enterprise, science and technology through Enterprise Ireland, the IDA, a new investment and stabilisation fund and through the county enterprise boards.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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What is different this year when compared with last year?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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In comparative terms, my colleagues have seen a huge reduction in their allocation, particularly in terms of their capital spend. They have made sacrifices so that my Department can continue to support enterprise despite the difficulties we currently face. An investment of €500 million represents a considerable commitment to employment creation and sustainability.

The stabilisation of the banking system is vital if we are to return to a situation where credit is available to businesses and enterprises.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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That is not happening.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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When will it happen?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I agree it is not happening. The work that will be carried out by the Minister in the context of the new agency being set up and the consequent stabilisation of the banking sector will get us back to where we want to be.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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That will take a year or longer.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gilmore referred to the changes in regard to DIRT. Exemptions remain in place. For individuals aged 65 years and over, since the enactment of the Finance Act 2007, there is an exemption from DIRT where the total income, including interest, is below the annual exemption of €20,000 for a single person and €40,000 in the case of a married couple. This exemption also continues to apply in the case of permanently incapacitated individuals.

We are framing a method by which we can increase our tax base to deal with the specific issues we currently face. Deputy Morgan asked about life assurance schemes. Such schemes do not relate solely to mortgages.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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I am sure Mr. Fingleton has made adequate provision in this regard.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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None of us would encourage people not to take out life assurance. In the present difficulties, it is a method by which we can accrue investment.

Deputy Broughan referred to a capital gains tax estimate of €45 million, which is a full-year estimate of the 3% tax increase from 22% to 25%. The investment we expect to accrue in 2009 will be €625 million. Not everybody will be happy with these increases. However, they are methods by which we can increase our tax base and accrue further income to the State outside of taxation on labour. I am sorry about the increase in the cost of cigarettes. Also, I am desperately sorry I was not in a position to retort to the Deputy's view. I suggest if cigarettes cost €100 per packet Deputy Stagg would still not give them up, which I appreciate.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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Smokers are giving more than the wealthy.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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By my calculations, smokers are giving the Government approximately €1.3 billion.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The figure is €1.1 billion.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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I was close enough. I was only €200 million out.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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How much are the property speculators giving?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Excise on tobacco are a considerable method by which taxation is collected for the Exchequer. It is also true to say - this has not been said previously on the floor of the House - that a percentage of that money is allocated to the health budget to deal with issues appertaining to smoking.

I have answered as many questions as I can. The methods by which we are increasing taxation on capital and wealth are, in my view, the best in current circumstances in terms of expanding the tax base.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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What incentive will people earning more than €289, who will now enter the tax bracket, have to go to work?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Sheahan is not in order now. I call Deputy English.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I have grave concerns about the life insurance levy for two reasons. Perhaps the Tánaiste will clarify if non-life insurance includes critical illness?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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No.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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There will be no increase of 3% in respect of critical illness.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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No.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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That is definite. We should be encouraging people - in fact it should be made law - to take out life insurance and critical illness cover. In some cases, people have no choice and are forced by the banks to do so. I believe people should be legally required to take out critical illness cover. It is wrong to introduce a deterrent that will put people off taking out life insurance and critical illness cover, which are important. These policies result in enormous savings to the State and should not be penalised further. While I accept an increase may be necessary in respect of life insurance policies which pay out a lump sum, general straightforward life insurance policies which provide no lump sum payment should not be hit. It is wrong to do so. Also, it sends out the wrong message. We should be encouraging people to take out insurance. Critical illness cover is just as important as life insurance. It is a pity the the Government is going down this road.

On the banks, earlier I asked the Taoiseach from where the figure of €80 billion to €90 billion arises. We have been told numerous times at committee meetings by the Financial Regulator and others that total loans in respect of land and development, potential bad debts, is €41 billion. The Financial Regulator also claimed €24 billion of that sum was doubly secured with other assets.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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Yes.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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That figure has now risen to €80 billion. Perhaps the Tánaiste will outline how this figure, which appears to have landed out of the sky, was arrived at. I accept an attempt is being made to address the bad debts issue. We all agree the issue must be addressed although we may differ on the method by which that is done. The proposed method will in my opinion take a long time. We were told by the Taoiseach that this will be the answer to freeing up money to businesses and so on. However, that is no good if it is going to take six or eight months to take effect. Small businesses need money now. Six months time will be too late. This year is about survival.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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That is correct.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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This measure will not deal with the issues and problems of the next six months. We could be facing a serious situation come October or November. The crisis is happening this year, not next year. I am concerned it will take too long to establish the proposed National Asset Management Agency. I hope the Tánaiste heeds my concern. There is a perception among the public that officials in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment are asleep on these issues. There are serious problems out there.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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On being smart, the Government fails.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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What we got today is a promise of 400 new CE places. One small town in Sneem, County Kerry, would take up 400 CE places.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Chalk it down.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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We need to get real.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste is also Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. How will she sleep at night when there are 520,000 unemployed at the end of this year?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call on the Tánaiste to wrap up.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I do not know if how I will sleep at night is a technical question. I will certainly do so with a clear conscience.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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I ask that question in the context of benchmarking and doing a good job.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Benchmarking relates to salaries. On Deputy English's question, critical illness cover is exempt. On the banking issue, a colleague of the Deputy stated earlier in the debate that this is a complex issue. I agree with that statement.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I said that too.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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We cannot provide for a quick fix on the floor of the House before midnight.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I did not ask for that.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I do not disagree that businesses continue to encounter difficulties in terms of accessing working capital and the normal methods by which they involve themselves in business. That being said, it is important we have a critically well examined outcome in terms of setting up the new agency. These complex issues will have to be addressed by experts and evaluated by this House. It is appropriate, therefore, that we await the technical outcomes and that the complexities of this issue are worked through as quickly as possible. In the meantime, serious decisions must be made by Government. This Government will make decisions on the basis of the sustainability of the banking system to ensure the country can move forward, thus returning us to a situation whereby enterprise, employment and access to working capital and the methods by which we continue to operate business and create export potential take place. This is the most critical issue in the context of the banking sector. This will marry into supporting people in enterprise. I referred earlier to the €100 million fund-----

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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It is €50 million this year.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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-----€50 million this year and €50 million next year - the parameters of which I will announce soon. The matter has been worked on with Enterprise Ireland and signed off on by the European Commission under the State aid rules. We will continue to deal with the issue of competitiveness, one of the biggest challenges we face.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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By increasing taxes.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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There has been a reduction in energy costs with further reductions to come and this will address the issue of the cost of doing business. We have worked within this framework during the past couple of months and will continue to do so on the basis that critically we must revert to a situation whereby wealth - I regret Deputy Higgins has left the House - to this State will be such that it will come from the export potential which I believe we will continue to have. A number of announcements were made in the previous budget in regard to research and development. Today, there have been announcements in regard to intellectual property, which will deal with the absolute necessities of this economy.

It is important to reiterate that my Department will spend more than €500 million on enterprise in 2009, not to mention what will be spent by other Departments involved in other aspects of science, technology, innovation and education. Although I accept there will be difficulties attached to the increases introduced through some of the measures discussed here this evening, there is equally an acceptance that some of these measures are the correct way through which we continue to expand our tax base.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I wish to clarify a point. I was not suggesting we rush through the establishment of the national asset management agency. My concern is that its establishment will take a long time and rightly so.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Not necessarily.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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It is a delicate issue. In accepting that establishment of the agency may take a long time, the Tánaiste should take on board our concerns in regard to small business. If it takes six months to sort out the problem, that is six months during which small business will not have access to money, which is my concern. That is what I meant. What will happen in the next six months to a year has not been addressed. Today's budget does not set out what will happen to small business if movement of toxic assets takes a long time, which it could given it is a delicate matter. Also, it is exposing taxpayers to a great deal of money.

My question in respect of the figure of €80 billion has not been answered. The Tánaiste is the second person to whom I have put the question today. It has not yet been explained how the figure rose to €80 billion.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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On the €500 million at the disposal of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, what is the Tánaiste's projection for job creation? In the context of the 520,000 people who may be unemployed by the end of the year, what is the Tánaiste's projection for the €500 million job creation fund?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Unlike the Fine Gael document, I will not cod the people by saying that 100,000 jobs can be created by setting up a new agency.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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We did not cod anybody.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Could I just say-----

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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It is performance budgeting.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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What will the Tánaiste spend the €500 million budget on?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let her finish.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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On the projected value of the-----

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Listen to Willie the gun.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Performance budgeting.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Willie the gun.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Who is this idiot?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The figure of between €80 billion and €90 billion came from the banks.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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We have never heard of him.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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I said nothing to the Minister.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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We have never seen him before.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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There will be a process by which this will be valued and that valuation will be determined in due course.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is not very good at the sums himself.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy English also raised the issue of the timeframe and asked what will happen in the interim. I feel that liquidity in the banking sector will improve on the basis of the decisions to be made by this House, which were indicated today on the floor of the House by the Minister for Finance. Along with all of my agencies, I will continue to work with the banks on a constant basis to put forward the view that there is an absolute necessity to support enterprise. A new framework has been introduced by me and my agencies to ensure that happens. We will continue to do that ad infinitum until the liquidity of the banking sector is such that it enables businesses to improve and prosper.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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How many jobs will we get for the €500 million?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Kehoe.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I would like to finish my point.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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How many jobs will we get for the €500 million?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I cannot say that. That is not the way it is done.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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He does not understand.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I just need a couple of seconds.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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If Deputy Kehoe wishes to give way, that is okay.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Will the Tánaiste speak to the Taoiseach and her colleagues? Will she go back to the regulator and his staff, who came into our committee on two occasions to tell us that having scrutinised, researched and checked the loans in the banks, they had come up with a figure of approximately €39 billion? I accept that the Tánaiste cannot give the answer now. There is a big difference between €39 billion and €80 billion.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Did the regulator tell the Deputy that?

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy had better have a chat with him so.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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A Cheann Comhairle, I am not going to take smug stupidity from a Minister who should know better.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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He is like Mickey Mouse.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister, Deputy O'Dea, does not have the cop on to realise that the difference between €40 billion and €80 billion is a hell of a lot of money. He should not make a laughing matter of it in here.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should-----

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The Irish taxpayer will not make a joke of €40 billion. It is a lot of money.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The regulator told the Deputy something.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The regulator came into a committee of this House.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The Deputy should talk to him.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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He spoke about loans of approximately €40 billion.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Talk to the regulator.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister for Finance, the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach came in and said that the relevant figure is €80 billion. There is a hell of a difference.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Talk to the regulator about that.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I know you are interested in guns and defence. Maybe counting is hard for you.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I can count. There is a big difference.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is not great at sums.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Do not make a laughing matter out of it.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to address his comments through the Chair.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I would have thought that the Ceann Comhairle had more control than that. The Minister is making a joke out of the whole thing.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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You are a joke.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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This is a very serious budget. We are being watched by those interested in world affairs.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The regulator told you something.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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We are getting no jobs for the €500 million we are spending.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is not true. I will explain that to the Deputy some other day.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste has not said anything to the contrary.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must call Deputy Kehoe. Time is running out.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I have asked the Tánaiste to get somebody to come in here tomorrow and clarify who is telling the truth.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister can laugh all he wants, but this is serious.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must call Deputy Kehoe now anyway.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Can the Tánaiste ensure that somebody clarifies the matter tomorrow?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will let her clarify it in a minute.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I am only asking for an explanation of this, one way or the other.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Right. That is okay.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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It is a serious matter. There is a big difference between €40 billion and €80 billion.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must call Deputy Kehoe.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, a Cheann Comhairle, but the Tánaiste cannot just bow her head and avoid my question.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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She will answer in a minute. Deputy Kehoe is next.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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She is making no effort.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The debate on these resolutions is coming to an end.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Some €500 million is being provided, but no jobs are being created.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, Deputy.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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If the Tánaiste wants to reply to Deputy English now, I have no problem waiting.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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No, I do not.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I assure her that I do not mind waiting while she replies to him.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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She will reply to all the questions at the end.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I am not asking her to give an answer now. I am asking her to get an explanation in advance of tomorrow's debate. Is that too much to ask, on behalf of the Irish taxpayer, who has been hit for thousands of euro today?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Kehoe.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Is it too much to ask for an explanation to be provided tomorrow?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Kehoe to continue.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Why has the figure increased from €40 billion to €80 billion?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Where does the €80 billion figure come from in the first place?

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I am being very reasonable.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will ask the Deputy to leave in a minute if he keeps this up.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I am being very reasonable.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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You are, but it is Deputy Kehoe's turn to speak. I do not want to have to ask Deputy English to leave.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste spoke about the need to support enterprise. Over the last number of months, I have not seen any evidence of Government support for enterprise.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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What about Coca-Cola? Is that not in the Deputy's constituency?

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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It left Dublin and went to Wexford. There was no additional investment in this country.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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We made a big investment in the local network.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It is interesting that the Tánaiste and the Minister for Defence are present, as they comprised the Cabinet delegation that went to the United States to try to save the Dell facility in Limerick. They came back with their tails between their legs, unfortunately.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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That is right.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Minister, Deputy O'Dea, said that this is a global thing and everything like that.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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What does the Deputy mean by "everything like that"?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I was in Limerick when it all happened.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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He was well able to mind himself.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I was reminded of Minnie Mouse when I saw that the work he did to try to save the Dell facility in Limerick was unsuccessful. I was not a bit surprised. This economy will not move into the recovery stage until we create new jobs and look after small and medium-sized enterprises. Fine Gael produced an excellent document last week. The Labour Party brought out its document yesterday. I do not feel that anything in this budget will protect small and medium-sized enterprises. Nothing in it will encourage outside investors to come to Ireland and replace companies like Dell which have gone.

It is great to see Coca-Cola in County Wexford. In 1997, County Wexford lost out when the Fianna Fáil-led Government took Coca-Cola out of the county and moved it to another part of the country. We are only getting what we were due ten years ago. The Coca-Cola jobs comprise the only employment this Government has ever brought into County Wexford. I assure the House that it was not the Government's work and commitment that brought Coca-Cola into County Wexford. One of the major factors that enticed Coca-Cola was the infrastructure that is available at Rosslare Europort.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Who built that?

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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She speaks.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Was it the fairies who built it?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It was not the current Government anyway.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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There is life over there.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I will tell the Tánaiste one thing-----

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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It was Seánie who ran away with the fairies.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I assure the House that the Government has not invested much in Rosslare Europort over recent years. I do not think the Tánaiste has been there since she was appointed Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I was there on my holidays last year.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I suppose that is the way the members of this Government treat enterprise.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste is well able to answer the easy questions.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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They laugh and talk about their holidays.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I have been to County Wexford at least twice.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We do not need to talk about our holidays.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I have been to Gorey, Rosslare and Wexford town.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am disappointed that there is nothing in the budget to support enterprise. The Minister, Deputy O'Dea, seems to think it is great that we lost Aer Lingus from Shannon Airport.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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We got it back.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I assure the Minister that he did not get it back.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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We got it back.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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He did not get it back because he did not try to get it back.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I need to call the Tánaiste to conclude this debate.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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He went off with his tail between his legs on that occasion as well.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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He said it was "armageddon".

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That is the way it was.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Armageddon.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I assure the Minister-----

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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He did not say it was armageddon when 1,800 jobs were lost in Dell.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Do not mind armageddon now.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I would be interested to hear the Minister's comments on that.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Armageddon.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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We need subtitles for this debate.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Tánaiste to wrap up the debate.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Can I have an answer to my question? If not, can I have a commitment that it will be answered tomorrow?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Perhaps the Tánaiste feels she has already wrapped it up.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to reiterate what the Minister for Finance said earlier today.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I know what he said. I have read it into the record.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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He said:

The potential maximum book value of loans that will be transferred to the agency is estimated to be in the region of €80 billion to €90 billion (although) the amount paid by the agency will be significantly less than this to reflect the loss in value of the properties. In the longer term, if the agency were to fall short of recouping all of the costs, the Government intends that a levy should be applied to recoup any shortfall.

The Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan, has indicated that the "potential maximum book value" of the loans is between €80 billion and €90 billion.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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On a point of information-----

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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That information would have come from the banks in the first place.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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This is very important.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let her finish.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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When we talk about the budgetary framework, it is important to emphasise that this country's 12.5% rate of corporation tax has been reiterated. That is very important to this country, especially if it is to attract foreign direct investment. I accept that it will be difficult to attract further such investment. We have done that in the past on the basis of our rate of corporation tax. Our research and development tax rates are 20% and 25%. We have introduced a new taxation measure on intellectual property. That is where we want to be in this country over the next number of years.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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It was not enough to keep Dell here.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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If we are to attract high-potential, high-value employment and jobs into this country, we have to provide incentives to facilitate that. This Government has done that.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Armageddon.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy asked how many jobs are being created this year. It is planned that IDA Ireland will spend €73.5 million and Enterprise Ireland will spend €103.6 million. The county and city enterprise boards will spend €20.2 million on microenterprises. Enterprise Ireland and Science Foundation Ireland will spend €295 million on research and development and innovation.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We do not doubt the capacity of the Tánaiste's party to spend money. It is getting results that is the problem.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Further investment will be made through Shannon Development, InterTrade Ireland and the INTERREG programme.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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How many jobs will be created?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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We will continue to invest in the creation of jobs and sustain the jobs we have in the economy.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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How many jobs will be created?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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One cannot do a simplistic transaction whereby X amount of jobs equals Y amount of money. That is farcical-----

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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So €500 million could equate to 1,000 jobs.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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-----but it is true to say that IDA Ireland, with my support, will continue to encourage and entice people to come to this country-----

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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She has a budget of €500 million.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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-----to invest and to create jobs.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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She has €500 million and she cannot say how many jobs it will deliver.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Creating new jobs is the absolute necessity of the work that we will continue to do. Irrespective of whether Deputy Sheahan wants to take a simplistic view on that, we must have key messages to give and those are the key messages we will continue to give - the flexibility of our workforce,-----

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Hold on, €500 million is not simplistic.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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-----our investment in research and development, our investment in intellectual property and the methods by which we will attract FDI and sustain new opportunities for indigenous companies, which are the only way,-----

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Ceann Comhairle like the sound of my colleague? She is babbling all day.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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-----in my view, we will continue to create further trade opportunities and export value.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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In one sentence I will clarify what I seek. I am only asking that the Tánaiste send somebody else in tomorrow with the answer if possible.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must move it on.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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No, this is too serious. The Minister for Finance, in his speech earlier today, stated what would be transferred over, and the Members opposite can laugh all they want. I read it back to the Taoiseach earlier. According to the Government's question and answer document, the eligible land and development loans of each bank involved will be transferred. That is development-led land that is partly built on, built on and not built on at all. I asked repeatedly at committee meetings, and I have been assured by the regulator's staff that they have checked the loans and counted them up, and the exposure was €39.4 billion to be exact. They were adamant about that. I raise a big problem here. I am not blaming anybody.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is the foreign assets. That is the difference, is it?

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The problem is I need to find out why all of a sudden-----

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The land is not even in Ireland.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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------€40 billion has become €80 billion. If there is an answer I will sit down happy if I get it tomorrow, but we cannot debate a potential transfer of toxic assets-----

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy English said that.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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-----without knowing what the figure is,-----

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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He must to revisit it.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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-----and it is not simple arithmetic.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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We will not know the figure until we get the valuation.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy English must revisit it.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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We are only working on the book value at present and it will be based on the valuation.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I will not be sneered at. At committees of this House the staff of the regulator who work on behalf of the people clarified twice, in October last and again in January, what the figure was and it is not good enough to state that the Government will take the banks' word for it. The regulator, who had checked all their loans, told us it was €40 billion.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy English has made his point at this stage.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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This is a serious point and I will not be brushed aside on it because it is too important.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste should be compelled to reply.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Nobody is brushing the Deputy aside.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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It is a very serious point.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Chair has no authority at all to compel anybody to reply.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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To be fair to the Chair, we are completely out of order because this is a financial resolution.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is a financial resolution.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste should be compelled to reply on behalf of the taxpayer.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am going to put the question anyway.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Can I be happy that I will get an answer tomorrow? Will somebody come in and explain it?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Chair has no power over that.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Ní foláir dom an cheist seo a leanas a chur de réir Ordú an lae seo ón Dáil: "Go n-aontaítear leis an tairiscint maidir le Rún Airgeadais Uimh. 7." I am required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the Dáil of this day: "That the motion on Financial Resolution No. 7 is agreed to."

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Ní foláir dom an cheist seo a leanas a chur de réir Ordú an lae seo ón Dáil: "Go n-aontaítear leis an tairiscint maidir le Rún Airgeadais Uimh. 9." I am required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the Dáil of this day: "That the motion on Financial Resolution No. 9 is agreed to."

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Ní foláir dom an cheist seo a leanas a chur de réir Ordú an lae seo ón Dáil: "Go n-aontaítear leis an tairiscint maidir le Rún Airgeadais Uimh. 10." I am required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the Dáil of this day: "That the motion on Financial Resolution No. 10 be agreed to."