Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Question 5: To ask the Minister for Education and Science if his attention has been drawn to the difficulties that will be caused to a college (details supplied) in County Dublin as a result of the 560 cap imposed on post-leaving certificate student numbers, and the increase in the pupil-teacher ratio from 16:1 to 17:1, which will cause a reduction of 1.6 teachers in September 2009 and a further 3.2 teachers in September 2010 and the decision to discontinue apprenticeship courses in block laying in April 2009, and carpentry and joinery apprenticeship courses in April 2010, resulting in permanent whole-time teachers having no teaching hours; if his attention has been further drawn to the fact that growth areas exist in the building industry that will experience a skills shortage into the future; his views on whether it would make more economic sense to utilise highly qualified teaching staff to train people to provide for such skills shortages rather than fitting staff into a teaching situation that is incompatible with their qualifications; if he will agree to raise the capped post-leaving certificate numbers by 28 in September 2009, and a further 56 in September 2010; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8200/09]

Seán Haughey (Dublin North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am aware of the stipulation that has been imposed on the college referred to in the question. The Deputy will be aware that the national reduction in apprentice recruitment has necessitated a reduction in the current level of training provision. The problem is particularly acute in the construction trades, which have suffered a reduction in recruitment of almost 70% in the past two years. This reduction is beginning to feed into the education sector. A reduction in provision is necessary because apprentice numbers are declining. Officials from the Department of Education and Science have met the principal of the college referred to by the Deputy to discuss the issues arising from the reduction in apprenticeship provision. These issues are being considered.

Nationally, some 30,188 places are available on the post-leaving certificate programme. Most of these places are allocated to VECs on an annual basis following an application process. It is a matter for the VECs to allocate the places to their colleges and institutions. Each application is examined by the Department on its merits, taking into account current and previous allocations, current and previous demand and uptake, the overall number of places that are available and the overall demand from VECs. The application process for the 2009-10 academic year is ongoing. Any application from the VEC responsible for the college referred to in the Deputy's question will be considered on its own merits, taking into account all relevant circumstances. The Deputy should be aware that the increase from 16:1 to 17:1 in the pupil-teacher ratio in the post-leaving certificate sector was sanctioned on the same basis as the increase from 18:1 to 19:1 in the ratio in the post-primary sector. The identified reduction of 200 teachers in the education system in the 2009-10 school year is based on the increase in the ratio in the post-primary and post-leaving certificate sectors.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for his reply. I do not want to get into too much detail in the time available to me. By 2010, the cancellation of courses for apprentices will affect 4.8 permanent whole-time teachers who are qualified to teach in this area. If the Department's requirements are to be met, part-time teachers in the post-leaving certificate sector will have to be let go. It is ridiculous that 4.8 teachers will be walking around doing nothing because certain requirements have to be met. There is a simple way out of this. Skills will be needed in certain sectors of the construction industry in the future. The college referred to in my original question has identified two courses — conservation and the built environment, and sustainable construction technology and practice — that should be developed further. The 4.8 teachers I have mentioned are capable of teaching those courses. We need to continue to give people skills for the future. It would be wrong if 4.8 teachers were doing nothing, simply to meet a departmental requirement, at a time when courses are being cancelled. It is time to think differently about the training of apprentices. I do not understand why the retraining agency, FÁS, needs to be involved in education.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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A person who wants to become a doctor does not have to find an employer — he or she goes to university to develop his or her skills and eventually gets a piece of paper. The same system should apply in the case of apprentices. Ireland is part of Europe. If they cannot find employment in Ireland, those who have completed apprenticeships are entitled, like anybody else, to go to other parts of Europe to use their skills.

Seán Haughey (Dublin North Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I said earlier, we have to examine the overall context in the first instance. A cap has been imposed on the number of places in the post-leaving certificate sector as a result of the current financial position and in line with the increase in the pupil-teacher ratio. I accept that the Deputy has made a constructive proposal. Officials in the Department of Education and Science have met the principal of the college concerned. These issues are being considered. It is ultimately a matter for the local VEC. I accept that the Department will decide how many places are allocated to each VEC. Each VEC will allocate those places to the various colleges in its area. Three colleges are administered by Dún Laoghaire VEC. It is up to each college to make a case, through the VEC, for the number of places it considers it needs. The Department will allocate places on that basis. Applications have been received from the colleges and the VECs. The process of receiving applications will be finalised in March. We will notify the VECs of the position at that stage. The question put forward by the Deputy can examined in the context of allocating places to the Dún Laoghaire VEC, and that VEC subsequently allocating places within its jurisdiction.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I did not ask this question simply because of a particular problem in my own constituency. I want to highlight a more general issue. People with skills should be used to train others and provide them with opportunities in other parts of the construction industry. It is time we reviewed the issue of training apprentices. It is an educational rather than a FÁS issue. The Minister of State should take money from FÁS, transfer it over to his Department and let it carry out the training. Practical training can be done in-house, so there is no need to have a complicated means within which somebody becomes a carpenter, cabinet maker or block layer. Somebody should be able to do that in college, just like in any other post-leaving certificate course or degree. People should be given the opportunity to qualify in their skills area.

We should not have a ridiculous situation whereby somebody has gone half way through his or her training but cannot continue because his or her sponsor employer has gone out of business. That is no way to deal with education. I thank the Minister of State for his positive indication about Dún Laoghaire but outside that, it is time to transfer funds to his Department from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to let people qualify in the same way a doctor would qualify.

Seán Haughey (Dublin North Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are seven phases involved in the training of apprentices.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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It is an antiquated training system.

Seán Haughey (Dublin North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The fourth and sixth phases are provided for in the education sector. The Tánaiste has made a number of announcements because of the difficult situation facing apprentices due to the current unemployment situation. The overall point made by the Deputy is being given serious consideration at this stage, which is the need for employment activation. My role is to co-ordinate education and training between the two Departments. We have an upskilling co-ordination group which brings all the players together. We are also looking at the provision of education and training and at who does what in the implementation plan for the national skills strategy. The Deputy's proposal is being actively examined by all the major stakeholders.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That concludes Priority Questions. We must take the next questions in ordinary time.