Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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Question 9: To ask the Minister for Health and Children the position regarding the proposed voluntary retirement scheme for Health Service Executive staff; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [6668/09]

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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Question 46: To ask the Minister for Health and Children the estimated number of redundancies and early retirements being sought within the Health Service Executive; the levels at which these reductions in staff are being sought; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [6545/09]

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 9 and 46 together.

The Government has not yet decided on the scale or scope of a voluntary redundancy or early retirement scheme for the Health Service Executive. I have confirmed to the House on a number of occasions that I believe that a managed voluntary redundancy scheme could have an important role to play in helping to improve the delivery of health services to patients by streamlining management and administration within the HSE. The Minister for Finance, in his Budget Statement of 14 October last, reaffirmed the Government's commitment to such a scheme.

The immediate priority for the Government was to put in place the necessary legislation and other measures to implement the €2 billion public expenditure savings announced on 3 February. When this has been dealt with, the Government then will consider other matters, including the introduction of a voluntary early retirement scheme for the HSE and other areas of the Government.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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To put this issue in context, I met nursing representatives yesterday, who told me that in the last 18 months approximately 2,700 nurses have left the system. This may not represent the loss of 2,700 whole-time equivalent posts but it is nonetheless 2,700 people. How many managers and administrators have gone in that time? The Minister's answer was not greatly informative. How many health service staff have expressed an interest in taking redundancy and when will they be let go?

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The Minister for Finance has responsibility for public service staffing. Therefore, this is not a matter for me. The Government would have to approve a redundancy scheme and the terms thereof. The intention is that the Minister for Finance will bring a joint memorandum to the Government in regard to the health service.

In the past three years, we have increased the number of nurses by 25% and reduced the number of general support staff by almost 9%. I do not know what the level of interest would be in a voluntary redundancy scheme. Much would depend on the terms, the age of prospective applicants and so on. Obviously, from a strategic point of view, we are anxious to retain the best people. A voluntary redundancy scheme must be appropriately managed so that we do not end up, as has happened before, letting go vital staff who subsequently have to be replaced. The intention is that there will be no replacement of those staff who avail of voluntary redundancy. Instead there will be redeployment of remaining staff. Redeployment is a critical aspect of any voluntary redundancy scheme.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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The Minister replied to a similar question tabled by me on 25 November 2008, when she provided far more information than she gave in her initial short reply today. How much work has been done in this area? There is little point in letting go any staff who express a wish to retire regardless of their role or the area in which they work. Is there any strategy attached to the proposed redundancy scheme in terms of, for example, taking out administrative grades? One of the criticisms of the Health Service Executive is that its establishment involved the imposition of additional staffing structures on the existing structure of 11 health boards and other organisations. The common perception is that the various layers of management are causing delays in the system. Is there a strategy in terms of taking out layers of management rather than retiring people out of the system in a willy-nilly fashion?

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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A considerable amount of work has been done by my Department and the Department of Finance in regard to the proposed redundancy scheme. The intention is that the Minister for Finance and I will take a memo to the Government. This would probably already have been done in the past month if not for the necessary focus on the financial stability of the State and the measures required to be taken to that end. I hope we will be in a position to make progress on the redundancy scheme shortly.

The Deputy is correct that it would make no sense to introduce a voluntary scheme under which significant numbers of staff were lost in one area, leading to staff shortages and a need for fresh recruitment. Redeployment must be a key component of any scheme.

Considerable work has been done in regard to structuring issues in the Health Service Executive by Professor Drumm and his team, hospital management and so on, with the support of external consultants. That is a different issue. One of the issues that arises is whether the management structure needs to be more devolved.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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It is not a separate issue. The point is that the executive has too many layers of management and that is why staff numbers must be reduced.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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There are no more layers than there were before the establishment of the executive. The intention is to devolve to a greater extent to the four networks and to ensure services are reconfigured in a way that makes sense, not only on the hospital side but also on the community side. A substantial amount of work has gone into that. As I see it, the initial focus of the redundancy scheme will relate to administration management, not only within the Health Service Executive but within many of the hospitals. There are 13 or 14 chief executive officers of hospitals in Dublin city alone. In addition, there are the various human resources departments, finance directors, deputy chief executive officers and so on. One would never organise any system in that way. The manner in which we have organised services has led to large numbers of people in administration and management. Operating on the basis of networks of hospitals should deliver greater efficiency in this regard.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Jan O'Sullivan has put her finger on the vital issue. There has been much talk about redundancies in the wake of the general outcry about what is perceived as the enormous level of administration within the Health Service Executive while, at the same time, front line services are under such pressure. No matter what the Minister tells us in this regard, we hear every day about people waiting on trolleys, cancelled operations, delayed discharges and so on. The Department's figures back this up.

What has been done since the Minister responded to Deputy O'Sullivan on 25 December and to Deputy McHugh on 16 December in terms of progressing this issue? When will the first redundancies take place?

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I answered that question. As I said, a substantial amount of work has taken place involving my officials and officials from the Department of Finance. As I explained earlier, the Minister for Finance, not the Minister for Health and Children, has responsibility for public service staffing. I am not free to devise and implement a redundancy plan. The Minister for Finance must be centrally involved in any such scheme because it will not apply only to the health service. Members will appreciate that the Minister has been busy in recent weeks with financial and budgetary developments. However, I envisage we will be able to make a determination in this matter shortly, hopefully in consultation and agreement with the social partners.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I am sure the Minister accepts that she must play an integral part in a proposed redundancy scheme, even if the Minister for Finance is involved. Surely, therefore, she should be in a position to indicate when the first redundancies will take place.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The intention is that the first redundancies will take place this year.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Question 10: To ask the Minister for Health and Children the number of managers in the Health Service Executive who have been paid bonuses since the start of October 2008; if the payment of Professor Drumm's bonus is still being considered in view of the economic climate; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [6613/09]

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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No performance-related awards have been paid to the chief executive officer and eligible senior managers in the Health Service Executive in respect of 2008. The executives' payment-related award scheme operates in accordance with the principles set out by the review body on higher remuneration in the public sector. Given the current difficult financial circumstances, the Health Service Executive scheme is currently on hold pending a Government decision on the future of such schemes in the wider public service.

Awards were paid for 2007 in 2008, but no awards have been determined for 2008.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has told us that the awards paid out in 2008 relate to 2007. At what point in 2008 were these bonuses paid to staff in the upper echelons of the Health Service Executive? Are bonuses for 2008 on hold for a defined period or indefinitely? In other words, are bonuses still under consideration in the current climate for those earning vast sums of money in operating a health service with which few people are satisfied?

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The bonus scheme was introduced as part of the remuneration process for higher public servants. Therefore, it applies not only to the Health Service Executive but to the entire public sector. It was introduced many years ago, long before I became Minister for Health and Children. The Minister for Finance indicated in the House some time ago that this review scheme was being suspended. I understand he intends to bring forward proposals for the implementation of this process.

If I recall correctly, the 2007 bonuses were determined in the summer of last year in respect of 124 people on the recommendation of the chief executive officer. The board has made no determination in regard to a bonus for the chief executive officer for 2007 or 2008. It is part of his contract of employment that he may receive a bonus of up to 25% of salary.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister confirm that the chief executive officer of the Health Service Executive did not receive any bonus in 2008 for 2007?

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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That is correct. The board has made no determination in that matter.