Dáil debates
Tuesday, 10 February 2009
Ceisteanna — Questions
Ministerial Travel.
2:30 pm
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach the procedures in place in his office to regulate the use of the Government jet; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [40577/08]
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach the procedures used by his office to regulate and monitor the use of the Government jet; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [46100/08]
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach the procedures in place in his Department in respect of the use of the Government jets; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [46595/08]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach if changes are proposed in the procedures for the use of the Government jet; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1778/09]
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together.
The procedures my predecessor outlined to the House on use of the ministerial air transport service, MATS, most recently on 22 April 2008, have not changed.
The position is that my approval is required prior to the service being used. Procedurally, requests for use of the service are made by Ministers' private secretaries to my office and are dealt with, in the first instance, by the staff of my office.
Requests are examined by my staff with regard to the need for and purpose of travel, the destination and other logistical details. Any necessary clarification or further information is sought at that point. All screened requests are then submitted to me for my consideration and approval, if deemed appropriate. Once approved, all operational matters are settled directly between the office of the Minister in question and the Department of Defence or Air Corps.
No changes are proposed in the procedures for the use of the ministerial air transport service. All applications for use of MATS are considered in the context of its efficiencies.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, speaking for the Government when he says that members of the Government could make substantial savings by travelling on commercial flights? Does the Taoiseach have any figures on the use of commercial flights by Ministers?
Is the Gulfstream jet back in operation? I understand it costs €7,100 an hour. It was out of commission for several months in 2008 and, after a major overhaul costing almost €2 million, something went in it three weeks later and it was stranded for a while. What is the situation? I know it is an aging aircraft, but if these machines are well serviced, they have a very long lifespan. Is the Minister, Deputy Gormley, speaking for the Government when he says there will now be a big shift onto commercial air flights? What is the status of the Gulfstream? Is it operational and fully ready to fly?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Where appropriate, scheduled flights are used by Ministers. In addition, use is made of the ministerial air transport service when it is the only way for a Minister to travel to meetings and carry out his or her ministerial functions. It offers the type of flexibility that scheduled flights cannot provide. It is not tied to set routes or timetables. The jet can also use military as well as civil airports and it can lead to significant savings in travel time.
When considering applications for the use of Government jets, regard is had to the availability of scheduled flights as well the differences in financial costs and levels of emissions. A balance has to be struck. Even though sometimes there may be significant cost differentials, other factors such as the level of flexibility available, the purpose of the travel, destination, route, timings and passenger details warrant use of a Government jet as opposed to alternative scheduled flights. They are used, as the Deputy knows, interchangeably.
Regarding the Gulfstream, as the Deputy knows, it has been in service for 17 or 18 years and has an annual overhaul as required by the service guidelines applying to it. It is operational and is kept in proper repair by the Air Corps.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I recognise the value of having a jet for the prime minister of a country and the busier Departments. We had this argument before.
The Minister, Deputy Gormley, has been very upfront about carbon footprints. There is no extra carbon footprint when one takes a commercial flight because it is going anyway. I do not believe Prime Minister Blair ever had the use of a government jet.
Martin Cullen
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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He always flew with the RAF.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He used the RAF, but that is a different carbon footprint, as the Ministers know.
Does the Taoiseach have a figure for the carbon footprint per kilometre of the Gulfstream and the Lear jets? I am not sure how that is calculated, but if it can be calculated for cars, it can be done for jets. Given that the Minister, Deputy Gormley, is very agitated about this matter, I note that the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Mary Coughlan, and the Minister for Defence, Deputy Willie O'Dea, went on a failed mission to Austin, Texas, to talk to Mr. Michael Dell prior to the Dell announcement, which, we are told, cost €164,000. I just checked before coming to the Chamber and an economy American Airlines flight leaving Dublin tomorrow and returning in two days would cost €1,000 for the two Ministers. However, since they are Ministers, it would cost €9,000 if they travelled business class to Dallas. An internal flight to Austin would be very reasonable.
When the request was made for both Ministers to fly to Texas, the Taoiseach's Department vetted it. Would it not have been considered that substantial savings could be made if both Ministers flew comfortably in business class to Texas? Has the Taoiseach since issued reminders that, where possible and within reason, people should fly commercially when such flights are available?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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On the specific issue, there was a requirement to meet with the managing director of Dell very quickly in regard to impending decisions and it was the right thing to do in the circumstances.
I am informed by the Department of Defence that, in keeping with normal practice in the aviation business, it is not possible to assign an exact cost to any particular mission. However, on the basis of an approximation to actual costs, the average direct cost of €4,000 per hour would be a more reasonable measure. These are costs which arise while the aircraft is being flown and include maintenance, fuel and support services. One is at times required to meet a number of people from one stage to another and the jet is used for that purpose. Scheduled flights could not be used in situations where, for example, one is going to Luxembourg and Berlin before continuing on to London.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I recall the former Taoiseach, Mr. Reynolds, stopping off at various locations.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Never mind that.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The idea in these modern times that Government business can be conducted without requiring the use of these facilities is not correct. In the interest of getting work done and then returning, it is important they are used. It is also important, where it is appropriate and in line with timings, etc., to use scheduled flights. I have done so myself.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In regard to carbon footprints, how are these calculated for a jet such as that used by the Government?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Specific questions about levels of emissions, etc., should be addressed to the Minister for Defence.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, was explicit on this matter. He stated that we could get rid of the Government jet in the morning and it would not cause us any problem whatsoever. Does the Taoiseach agree with that statement? Would he agree, for example, that since the first purchase of a Government jet in 1980, there has been a huge increase in the availability of commercial flights and access from this country to various parts of Europe and elsewhere and that perhaps the Minister is correct that getting rid of the Government jet would not cause any problems?
What is the status of the Minister's statement? The notion of what is termed "collective cabinet responsibility" used to exist. I would like to know if the Minister's opinion is in fact the Government's opinion and how the Taoiseach might feel if the House put the statement to the test. What is the Taoiseach's view of the Minister's statement?
Arising from the Taoiseach's earlier reply to Deputy Kenny on the procedure whereby Ministers apply to his Department for the use of the Government jet and are either approved or refused, how many applications were received by the Department in the past year for the use of the jet and how many of these were refused?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have that information to hand and will have to get it for the Deputy. The Department of Defence has information on the detailed arrangements regarding the numbers of flights, who goes where and whatever else.
In regard to the first matter, a Government jet is necessary to conduct our business. It is not required in all cases or at all times by all Ministers and it is not used in all cases or at all times by all Ministers. In the context of doing business, it is necessary to make these facilities available. In the course of one's work, occasions arise when one moves from one capital to another. It would not be possible to do that through scheduled flights alone but it is not something that is sought to be used inappropriately. The Government jet is used in the conduct of Government business and so that one can get back the same day rather than wait overnight for flights, thereby ensuring one is available the following morning or day to do one's job here at home. It is part of the conduct of business of Government and it is the practice of all Governments of which I am aware, in particular those in the European Union.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Is the Government jet used where there are available direct scheduled flights between Irish airports and the capital concerned? For example, is it used in connection with business in Brussels and, if so, how many times has it been used given the reasonably regular scheduled service to that city?
The Taoiseach referred to the Government jet. There are three such aircraft or two and a half at least. The Beechcraft was acquired in 1980 and Gulfstream IV was acquired in 1991. Are there any plans to replace those aircraft?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Gulfstream IV has been in service for almost 17 years and is at this point the longest serving aircraft of its type in the world.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, thankfully it is.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Learjet which was purchased some time ago caters for shorter flights to Europe and so on. The Beechcraft is used by the Air Corps for aircraft training purposes. It is not used often, if at all, for travel purposes given, as stated, it is 29 years old. They are the aircraft available.
On the Deputy's other question, the Government jet is used from time to time in connection with business in Brussels bearing in mind what time meetings are taking place and at what time people are required to be back home. This type of service is not guaranteed on scheduled flights. It is not possible to use scheduled services in all cases though they are used by personnel doing business in Brussels on a regular basis.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is it necessary for the Government to maintain three aircraft?
Dermot AhernCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach indicated that one of the aircraft is being used by the Air Corps. Would it not be better for the Government to dispose of it or to sign it over to the Air Corps?
The Taoiseach shared with us statistics in regard to the use of Government jets by Ministers. Can he provided us with the statistics in regard to the use of commercial airline services by Ministers as a first choice? Does the Taoiseach have information in respect of foreign travel catered for by scheduled flights operated by commercial airlines and, if so, will he share that information with us?
Last Saturday, we all raised a cheer in celebration of Ireland's win over France. When listening earlier to questions from my colleagues, I was reminded of the Taoiseach's rugby interests and his attendance last year at the Heineken Cup final in Cardiff. The Taoiseach may recall the heavy water which he and Ministers Cullen and Martin got into in respect of their exploration of Welsh-Irish relations during their attendance with Mr. Morgan at the cup final in Cardiff. Did the Taoiseach, arising out of that early experience in his role as Taoiseach initiate any new regulations or standards which Members, Ministers or taoisigh should meet in respect of the use of the Government jet or jets? Will the Taoiseach accept there was quite a brouhaha in that regard at the time? It certainly raised some questions that merited address.
Leaving aside inappropriate use of Government jets by Ministers and taoisigh, will the Taoiseach comment on inappropriate use of Government jets for the transport of unofficial representatives. For example, for the visit last year by the Minister, Deputy Harney, to the United States in an effort to inform herself of further measures to privatise health services, I understand she was accompanied by her husband.
Is it appropriate that those who are not Government Ministers, including family, acquaintances and so on — where does one draw the line? — have the opportunity to accompany Ministers on ostensibly official business representing the Government? If this is the case, is it frequent or infrequent? Is there any regulation in regard to offsetting the cost through a contribution? Arising out of the exposure of that trip, did the Taoiseach take any steps or further actions following his Cardiff experience to set in train more appropriate guidelines for the use of Government jets into the future?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As I said earlier, the same regulations apply now as applied in my predecessor's time; there has been no change in the arrangements.
With regard to the question of accompaniment, if people are on official visits, it is possible to be accompanied from time to time by one's spouse, although it does not often happen.
With regard to the question of the use of scheduled flights, I speak for myself and if the Deputy wants more general information he would be best to put his questions to the Minister for Defence. In regard to my own situation, since I became Taoiseach I have travelled to the United States and Japan on official visits by scheduled flights. I have travelled by way of Government jet to Brussels for Council meetings and I have travelled to a number of capitals during the course of preparing for European Council meetings by Government jet. It would not have been possible to conduct those meetings in the time available where it not for the Government jet.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Nobody is in dispute about the usefulness of the facility in regard to specific instances. However, given the Taoiseach has indicated that, as Taoiseach, he has employed the use of commercial airline scheduled flights, does he agree that the information in regard to the ratio of use between commercial airline scheduled flights and the use of the Government jet, across not only his own Department but all Departments, would be a useful aid to having a better picture and understanding of the balance, if such exists, and if it applies as a balance across the board?
Finally, from the experiences I have instanced that attracted a degree of public attention and some critical voices, has the Taoiseach in the course of his tenure introduced any new rulings or indications of what he expects from Ministers? Has he communicated to his colleagues across the Cabinet the standards he would like to see applied in the use of this facility?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have to apply my standards to anyone else. The standards are simply applied as appropriate in line with the regulations. I have always used these facilities on the basis of official visits or official work. As I said, the workload for officeholders both at home and abroad is such that on many occasions obtaining a scheduled flight place is not an option, particularly due to the times involved, with many meetings held in the evening and so on. Other work is ongoing during the course of the day, including coming to and being answerable to this House. When one leaves for a meeting abroad, there may be criticism as to why one is not still at home, answering questions, having probably done so for an hour or two that morning.
One cannot win. The bottom line is that one has to do the job that has been assigned to one to the best of one's ability, using the facilities as appropriate, and obviously being mindful of the cost effectiveness of these issues where long flights and other flights can be accommodated by scheduled arrangements with normal aircraft, which are often used, as I have indicated.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I was surprised to read in the newspaper this morning the comments of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, concerning the Government jet. I have no difficulty with the Government using a jet, because the job of the Government is to govern and there is a need for one. Has the Minister, Deputy Gormley, raised the matter of getting rid of the Government jet directly with the Taoiseach? Will the Taoiseach confirm, if he has the details before him, how many times the two Green Party Ministers and the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Trevor Sargent, have used the Government jet since taking office? This is typical of the Green Party, speaking out of both sides of the mouth.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not accept that. The Minister, Deputy Gormley, was answering a question in respect of a wide-ranging interview on the radio.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Did he raise the matter directly with the Taoiseach?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am about to answer the question. The fact that the Minister was responding to a wide-ranging interview and gave his opinion on these matters is fine. These matters are not raised directly with me. However, the question of offsetting the carbon footprint from the use of air travel by Ministers is an arrangement which the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has brought into place. Indeed, he has backdated the arrangement to the beginning of the Administration in 2007 following the general election. Initiatives have been taken by the Minister concerned from a carbon emissions point of view. This was a good initiative and one which heightens awareness of the issue and ensures there is an offset in respect of any carbon emissions arising as a result of the use of these aircraft for Government purposes. It is a good initiative.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Can the Taoiseach confirm how many times the Minister has used the jet since taking office?