Brian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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Question 102: To ask the Minister for Defence his views on the call made at its recent annual conference that PDFORRA should be allowed to join the Irish Congress of Trade Unions; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3655/09]

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The position is that under the terms of the Defence (Amendment) Act 1990, the Defence Force representative associations are prohibited from being associated with, or affiliated to, any trade unions or any other body without the consent of the Minister. Accordingly, the representative associations, RACO and PDFORRA, cannot be affiliated to ICTU at present. A similar arrangement applies to the Garda Síochána representative associations.

The basis for the prohibition is that it would be inappropriate to apply the provisions of the Industrial Relations Act 1990 to members of the Defence Forces. The taking of any form of industrial action is felt to be irreconcilable with military service. As has been done in the past, the Defence Forces may be called on to contribute to maintaining vital services in times of industrial action. The potential for serious difficulties could arise in these circumstances if the associations were affiliated to ICTU.

However, a number of mechanisms have been put in place through the Defence Forces conciliation and arbitration scheme to compensate for the prohibition on affiliation to ICTU. These provide the representative associations with structures and processes which enable them to make representations and negotiate on behalf of their members. In addition, a framework exists which facilitates the associations in engaging with the official side in talks parallel to those taking place between the social partners at national level. This parallel process was operated in respect of the discussions at national level on the framework for a pact for stabilisation, social solidarity and economic renewal over the past weeks.

Brian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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I am not quite sure whether the Minister said that this can happen with his consent — in other words, that PDFORRA can be affiliated to ICTU. If there is a will to do something, a legislative way can be found to do it. What is wrong with a situation, as sought by PDFORRA, whereby there would be no agenda for industrial action or to subvert the State in any way, but representatives of PDFORRA could take part with ICTU on an information basis? In that way they would be better informed for their members and could make a better input for them. This would be against the background of being prohibited from doing anything that would subvert the State or involve PDFORRA members in industrial action. We need to move with the times here and I put it to the Minister that it is not an unreasonable request to be allowed affiliation in that context. If the Minister really wants it, a way can be found to do it. The Minister will not meet any obstacles from the Labour Party in that regard.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate what the Deputy has said. The difficulty to date is that it is felt to be inappropriate and that it might be a question of divided loyalties. For example, 2,000 members of the Defence Forces were recently trained to step into the prisons in the event of a threatened prison officer strike. It is felt there might be a conflict of interest in such a situation as they might be affiliated to ICTU, but be used, as it were, to undermine a strike by another section of the public sector. The same thing applies to the Garda Síochána.

With regard to admitting the military to the industrial relations structure, we have been to the forefront of Europe where it is acknowledged, by PDFORRA and more widely, there are excellent mechanisms in place whereby PDFORRA and RACO can make their case to the appropriate authorities. There is also the parallel mechanism which enables them to represent themselves at social partner level. PDFORRA would be the first to admit, and has claimed in my presence at various conferences, that it has gained much from that process. The defence organisation has gained too as a result of closer partnership, co-operation and interaction with PDFORRA and RACO.

The issue of membership of ICTU has been put forward a number of times. It does not apply, as yet, for the Garda Síochána. If there was to be a change, therefore, I would have to talk to my colleague, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who has the right to decide on whether the Garda Síochána should become affiliated with ICTU.

This request has not been put to me formally since the PDFORRA conference last year. If it wants to come back to me on the matter, I am prepared to look at the situation. To be honest, I do not see how the PDFORRA members are disadvantaged in any way by not being affiliated to ICTU. They do not seem to see a disadvantage either.

Brian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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I accept the Minister's good will in the matter and his willingness to see the situation move forward as far as is practicable. I understand he suggests the door is open for PDFORRA to make an appropriate application to him, that he will look on it as favourably as possible and will seek to facilitate its request in so far as he can. If changes are required, the Minister should, having consulted with PDFORRA, consult his colleague, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, to see how this agenda can be moved forward. The fact we are to the forefront in Europe is welcome, but there is a further distance to be travelled to arrive at a more satisfactory agreement or arrangement on PDFORRA.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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If the request comes to me again, I will consider it afresh. I could not see the change being made in isolation. In other words, I cannot see a situation whereby we would let the military avail of the facility while the Garda is prevented from doing so, because the reasons it is not regarded as appropriate for one organisation are the same reasons for the other. However, if the request comes to me again, I will examine it afresh and consult with my colleague the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.