Dáil debates
Wednesday, 17 December 2008
Leaders' Questions.
10:30 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It now is patently clear that this is the most incompetent Government in the history of the State. On Sunday, the Minister for Health and Children announced she had approved and authorised a statutory service plan from the HSE involving cuts of €500 million. That plan was placed in the Oireachtas Library yesterday and is obsolete today. My understanding is the Health Service Executive prepared its service plan and submitted it to the Minister for Health and Children for authorisation.
However, in light of changing circumstances, the chief executive of the HSE will be obliged to seek a further €400 million in cuts. This will strike at the heart of the most vulnerable in our society as it pertains to a critical major public service plan. The Minister for Health and Children, who sat at the Cabinet table and heard of the changing economic circumstances from the Minister for Finance, should have been in a position to tell the HSE it was basing its service plan on the wrong figures, in the same way the budget was drafted using incorrect figures. Arising from the service plan submitted by the HSE that now must be amended, can the Taoiseach explain to the House the numbers of beds that will be cut and the number of people who will be made redundant? Can he spell out the impact on waiting lists and trolleys, 400 of which were occupied yesterday, as well as on capital projects for hospitals nationwide next year?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny often has spoken of the need for efficiencies in the delivery of public services, which is precisely the context in which——
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Front line services should not be cut.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——the HSE has devised its service plan.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It has obtained efficiencies totalling €280 million during this year, which will be repeated next year. The figures being spoken about in the public debate this morning are not those of the HSE.
As Deputy Kenny observed, the HSE has set out a public service plan to support its goals, which are to maintain services to patients and clients in both hospitals and community settings in a manner that is fully consistent with patient safety and best practice. It is to expand certain services, particularly in respect of cancer and therapies for children with disabilities, to which additional funds of €15 million and €10 million, respectively, have been allocated, as well as an additional €120 million in other areas. Moreover, it is to support the reorganisation of services and the management of costs in such a way that services will be maintained and expanded. Furthermore, it is to work with the social partners in the health sector to achieve the objective of maintaining services to the public with a much tighter budget and to manage closely the significant risks of cost increases arising from the need to provide medical cards and other services as a result of the economic downturn.
The HSE service plan has been prepared and approved by the Minister on that basis. It refers to the budget of €14.7 billion that will be paid for health services next year, which constitutes an increase of 3.2% over this year's budget. Her approval and the finalised plan take account of all recent developments, including the budgetary position, the deterioration in the economy and the need to manage risks. In her letter approving the plan, the Minister also has set some specific and challenging requirements for the HSE.
This is a challenging and much-improved service plan, which sets out clearly the links between the services planned, the budget for those services and the staff needed. It is a plan that will require more than ever the active involvement of staff at all levels to make the changes necessary to deliver it. The goals desired by the Government across all areas only can be achieved with real co-operative engagement of management and staff from the outset of the year, drawing on the commitment of all to patients first and foremost. The HSE's management is engaged with staff representatives on these issues. I believe this is the best way to proceed and is the basis on which the plan was set up.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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An injection of reality is needed.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Can the Taoiseach explain the reason this Health Service Executive service plan, which was placed in the Oireachtas Library only yesterday, is out of line by a further €400 million this morning? Everyone is in favour of efficiencies——
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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——and of giving patients the best level of service. While there were ten HSE employees at grade 8 in 2000, there were 713 in 2007. I asked the Taoiseach what are the implications, in respect of the cutting of front-line services, on foot of an amended plan involving cuts of €900 million from this service? What are the implications for front-line services, the employment of nurses and doctors and patient care? The Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, appears to be the only person in Ireland who states that too many people are working in accident and emergency units nationwide. Last night, 400 people were obliged to lie on trolleys.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Again I ask the Taoiseach, how many beds will be taken from the system by this cutback?
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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That is the question.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How many people will be let go from the Health Service Executive? What are the implications for waiting lists and patient care? What are the implications for any future development to take place in the health business in 2009? The Taoiseach should answer these questions clearly and unequivocally, based on the up-to-date information in his possession. As this is the Taoiseach's last morning in the House, this matter should be sorted out in order that Members know where they stand.
Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Hopefully it will be his last morning.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach, without interruption.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The health service would never be sorted out were Deputy Kenny in charge, because he is in favour of the status quo plus——
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach was in that Department for long enough. He was glad to get out of it. He called it "Angola".
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please let the Taoiseach finish.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I do not know what the Deputy is on about.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Are the Deputies opposite finished?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let the Taoiseach finish.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach has blown his chance.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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He was afraid to face up to the problems and he ran out of it.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Taoiseach to finish.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I remind Deputy Kehoe this is Leaders' Questions.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Whenever the Whip is ready.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach, without interruption.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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If the Taoiseach had his way, he would have——
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Whenever they are ready.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is seeking a diversion. He is trying to back out of it.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach, without interruption.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The position with Deputy Kenny is that he calls for reforms but when they are being implemented he opposes them.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I asked the Taoiseach a question.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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A continuing reconfiguration is taking place in the health service. There will be a continuing emphasis on more——
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——day places and day surgery.
Sorry, Deputy Brian Hayes is talking about beds.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Beds, yes, that was the question.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Beds do not determine the health service. There is more than a hospital service in developing our health service and the HSE is involved in a reform of the service.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Tell that to my constituent who cannot get one this morning.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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To stick to the point.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Bed numbers. Answer the question.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, Deputy Hayes. I will answer it in my own way. If he ever becomes leader, he can ask the questions.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach is answering Deputy Kenny's question. Please allow him to do so.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——for driving these efficiencies is to maintain, not to cut, service.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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They are being cut every day.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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They are not being cut every day. In fact, there have been improvements in the health services in a range of areas. Where waiting times were two to five years, they are now two to five months. In 60% of all of those specialties for which there are waiting lists, they were reduced during the course of this year, if the Deputies look at the statistics that have been produced by the relevant authorities.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Taoiseach believe that?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If Deputy McCormack wants to portray the health service being totally dysfunctional in every respect, that is his point of view but it is not fair on those who are working in the health service and it is certainly not the experience of the vast majority who receive health services in this country.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is not to contend for a moment that we do not have problems, but those problems are being dealt with on the basis of reforms of health services and we all know, if we were honest enough to admit it, that the status quo plus will not give us a sustainable level of services. We need work practice changes.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Why do they not do it then?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——and we are already seeing in the engagement that is taking place——
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——between the management and staff representatives that we have had efficiencies of €280 million alone this year, which will be repeated next year.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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What we have seen over the past ten years, to respond to Deputy Stagg, has been a continuing improvement——
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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They poured money into a black hole.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——and an increase in funding to the health service.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is also clear that resources alone will not provide the solutions to the health service, but continuing and concomitant reforms with it, and that is what the HSE management is engaged in. If people were fair and looked at the changes taking place, they would recognise that in many cases those changes have been for the better.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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We only asked about beds. The Gettysburg Address all over again.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Gilmore, without interruption.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach seems to think that things are fine in the health service. Yesterday there were 390 people on trolleys in accident and emergency units. That is just ten less than the number who were on trolleys on the day that the Minister, Deputy Harney, announced an emergency in accident and emergency in 2006.
On Wednesday last, the HSE published a service plan which stated that there would be €500 million cut from the health services and yesterday it emerged that the figure is now closer to €1 billion. There are 500 beds already gone out of the health service and it is proposed to remove another 600, that is, 1,100 beds. It costs €200,000 to provide a bed, in other words, €220 million that has already been spent in providing hospital beds will not be used under this plan.
We are faced with a situation this morning where the Taoiseach or his deputy will come in here tomorrow morning to propose that Dáil Éireann be suspended for six weeks — that we go out of business for six weeks — at a time when the country is facing its worst economic crisis, when our banks are in crisis and at a time when Ministers, including the Minister for Health and Children, are seeking additional cuts in services. This country needs a Government and leadership. It needs people who have got a handle on the problems that are facing the country and the people. It does not have that.
What we have——
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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——is a Government that is politically and economically dysfunctional, that is adrift and that is now staggering exhausted to the Christmas break.
One thing after another the Taoiseach is not getting right. He has not got the banks right. He told us on Sunday that there was going to be a €10 billion rescue plan and when I asked him direct questions on it yesterday, he could not answer a single one of them. We are no wiser today about what he is going to do about the banks than we were last week.
On the economy, the Taoiseach stated two weeks ago we did not need an economic recovery plan. At the beginning of this week he stated he had such a plan. We still have not seen it. We are now told it is some kind of a framework. When will we see this economic recovery plan that the Taoiseach has been talking about and dining over in Farmleigh? The problem is that the Taoiseach is not governing. The country has serious economic, social and service problems that are not being addressed by his Government and people are becoming increasingly depressed by that.
Everybody knows that the country is facing enormous challenges and economic difficulties and people are prepared to step up to the plate and to address them collectively. However, the problem we have in this country is that we do not have a Government which is giving leadership and direction and providing any sense that there is a solution and that we can get through these difficult times.
Is the Taoiseach serious about closing down the House for six weeks in these times? When will he tell us what the Government will do about the banks? When will we get the detail of these health cuts about which the Minister for Health and Children is talking? When will we see the economic recovery plan about which the Taoiseach has been talking?
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There are more questions, as far as they want to go.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I reject the assertions that are being made by Deputies Gilmore and Kenny continuously in this House and that provide the soundbites for the daily business here.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gilmore spoke about people being prepared to step up to the plate. I believe people are prepared to step up to the plate and when they do, under the social partnership process, I will be interested to see what the Opposition in this House will do. The Opposition all agree with everything in theory but when it comes to practice, they oppose everything on every day, and they have no alternative.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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There were four questions.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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We are the problem.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let him finish now.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the framework plan and what Deputy Gilmore stated about economic recovery——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Hold on now. Fair is fair.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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One will not get it here.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gilmore was listened to in silence. The Taoiseach must be listened to in silence as well.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The blueshirts are back.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What was that, Deputy O'Dea, about the Blueshirts? He himself is wearing one.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is losing it.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Another leader in the Fine Gael-Labour benches.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy McCormack, I have told you before this is Leaders' Question.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Another intellectual giant on the second bench over there.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy O'Dea is wearing a blue shirt.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Whenever they are ready. I would like to answer to the Deputy.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Sunday Independent will hear from Deputy O'Dea but we do not hear anything from him.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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We heard Deputy Ring was moving to the Labour Party.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Have a chat about that later.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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On the other points raised by Deputy Gilmore, on the question of economic recovery, the Government has based its programme on the agreed programme for Government. A new economic situation has emerged over the past six months and we will set out a framework which will shape the debate around the social partnership talks that will take place in the coming weeks. What we must do is rely on some of the strengths of this economy which we have built up over the past ten years. The totally negative way in which this economy is being portrayed in every respect by the Opposition is not a fair appraisal of an economy that is under stress and——
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——faces huge challenges, but one that has some strengths it can market and utilise.
With regard to the recapitalisation of the bank, I made the point yesterday that the negotiations between Government and banks continue and that we will protect the taxpayer in respect of any exposure in which it involves itself. We will do that in the way that we have done it up until now.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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When will they be walking the plank? That would be one idea.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Other countries have welcomed the initiatives that we have taken.
Joan BurtonBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We will continue to protect the taxpayer in the context of trying to maintain confidence and stability in our banking system.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Look at the Taoiseach's backbenchers.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the final matter Deputy Gilmore raised, it is our intention in the Government to continue to lead. It is our intention to engage with the social partners and to provide ourselves with the means by which we can deal with these challenges. These challenges will not be dealt with in the partisan way in which Deputy Gilmore wishes to deal with them. They will be dealt with through social partnership where we will set a credible timeframe within which health can be restored to the public finances on an agreed basis, which is the best and only way forward to deal with the magnitude of the challenge that faces us.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Will Deputy Cowen be here to do that?
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I am not sure there is any leadership there anyway.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach's problem is not the Opposition.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let Deputy Gilmore put his question now please. Put your question. Deputy Gilmore, without interruption.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach's problem is the Government that he is leading. It is not doing its job.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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You know a lot about co-operation. We have memories.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach received more co-operation from the Opposition than any other Government in a long time and, frankly, a lot more than he deserves.
Simon CoveneyEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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He received co-operation from the Opposition on Lisbon, when a problem arose last week in regard to the pig industry and generally over the past several months in respect of the economy.
Seán PowerEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Government received the Opposition's co-operation——
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy speaks out of both sides of his mouth.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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That is good coming from Deputy Dempsey.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gilmore should put his question.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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As far this party was concerned, we have turned out to be absolutely right in terms of the criticisms we made. What the Taoiseach is seeking, and what he will not get, is a silent Opposition.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Silent like his backbenchers.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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He does not want a Opposition at all. He wants silence.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gilmore, put your question please.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The one thing that constrains me in saying what I really want to say about the incompetence and the lack of drive, initiative and effort on the part of the Government, is that I might cause damage by doing so.
Johnny BradyEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That is the biggest constraint that I have.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gilmore, put your question.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I will be absolutely clear lest there be any doubt. This Government is appalling. It is a deadbeat Government.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Put your question.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It is not able to lead this country out of the problems it created in the first place.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It has driven us into the worst economic problem the country has experienced in decades.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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We have to deal with the problem.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gilmore must put a question.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gilmore just comes here to criticise.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It has no idea about how to get out of it.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It squandered it all.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to put his question.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I asked the Taoiseach four questions but with all his bluster he forgot to answer them. Is he serious about closing the Dáil for six weeks during this very difficult period? When will we be told exactly what he intends to do about the banks? What cuts will be made to the health service, when will they be outlined to us and will we have an opportunity to debate them or is it his intention to reveal them when the House is closed down for six weeks? Finally, when will we see the economic recovery plan? There is no point in telling us about discussions with the social partners in regard to the plan. It is the Taoiseach's responsibility to produce it. Neither is there any point in telling us that negotiations have been entered into with the very same bankers who got us into the banking problem in the first place.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gilmore has asked the questions, so let the Taoiseach answer.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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When will the Taoiseach tell us what he intends to do about recapitalising the banks?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have already answered Deputy Kenny regarding the health situation and have indicated that the need for more efficiencies and effective delivery of services is a critical part of maintaining services in the health service next year. That is on the basis that €14.7 billion is being made available to the health service, an increase which takes account of the €580 million cost of the nursing home subvention scheme over this year. Negotiations are ongoing between management and unions and there is every indication that we will achieve the work practice changes necessary to ensure that we have flexibilities, deliver services to the front line to the greatest extent possible and minimise adverse impacts on patients. That is the purpose of the exercise.
In regard to the banks, I have outlined the situation to the Deputy. The recapitalisation policy was enunciated in detail last Sunday. Proposals must now come from the banks with which we are in negotiations. It must be understood that the only interests I have are the stability of the financial system so that we have a banking system that serves the modern economy we have built and protecting the interests of the taxpayer in that effort. These are our primary considerations in dealing with the matter. We have indicated that proposals should be brought before the Government in early January.
The committees will return on 7 January and we will be involved in trade delegations to support Irish industry abroad. We will ensure the Government returns on 7 January. The Government is working hard, despite what Deputy Gilmore wants to say.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Bring the Dáil back on 7 January.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy can do all the name calling he wants because he is good at it. That is part of the rough and tumble of politics and I have no problem with it.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach seems to have a problem with it.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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However, I assure the Deputy that the Government will work hard on maintaining this country's reputation as a good economy, a place to do business and a location where enterprise can prosper. We also know that an Irish recovery can only happen when a global recovery takes place because this is an open economy and we are affected by what happens abroad. We are not total masters of our own economic destiny in every respect——
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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You claimed we were.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——when one considers our membership of the eurozone and the fact that exchange rate policy is not decided here.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Pretend you did nothing.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We also know we have inherent strengths on which we can build. While we experience these difficulties in the economy, can we please desist from suggesting that the past ten years were an illusion and that we did not create the numbers of jobs that were created or improve the quality of life of our people?
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Where has the money gone?
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The chance was squandered.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We certainly did these things. We are now facing higher unemployment levels and we need to put in place policies that will help us to deal with the situation. This phase will pass. We have to indicate to the public where this economy can be in a number of years if we take the correct decisions now. I believe the correct decisions — the elephant in the room if Deputies would prefer — involve the discrepancy between expenditure and tax revenues which has emerged during the course of this year in particular as a result of the international downturn.
We have to be prepared to work with the social partners on finding a way to deal with the problem so that everyone gets behind the wheel to ensure we come through the difficult time that lies ahead. That is the approach of the Government and it is the right strategy. It is not a matter of instant gimmicks, soundbites for the media every morning or saying that we should have change but we will oppose change every time it is proposed.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am not asking the Opposition to be silent. That is a matter for Opposition Deputies.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Thanks a lot, that is great.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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They are capable of articulating their own points of view and that is a part of our democracy.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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However, I will not have it said when I defend this Government's record that I am suddenly attacking the Opposition.
Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Why not defend the economic plan in here?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am entitled to defend our record.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is indefensible.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It has been a proud record and now that we have entered a new situation, this Government will ensure our response is appropriate to the challenges we face.
Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Are we going to see the recovery plan?