Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is proposed to take No. 16, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of a Council framework decision amending Framework Decision 2002/475/JHA on combating terrorism, back from committee; No. 3, Motor Vehicle (Duties and Licences) (No. 2) Bill 2008 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage; and No. 27, Nursing Homes Support Scheme Bill 2008 — Second Stage (resumed). It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 16 shall be decided without debate.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There is one proposal to put to the House today. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 16, without debate, agreed to?

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

At a time when families face unprecedented pressure as a result of job losses, new taxes and fear of the credit crunch and its impact on the economy, the Dáil must have clarity from the Government in regard to ongoing affairs at FÁS, a major agency delivering services to people who are unemployed and others. Will the Minister for Finance clarify whether he has confidence in the board, which seems to have an oversight role in setting the expenses regime that applied to——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I must interrupt Deputy Bruton to point out that we are dealing with a proposal before the House. I remind Members that issues relating to FÁS are before the Committee of Public Accounts on foot of a report from the Comptroller and Auditor General. While passing reference may be made to current issues, the House should await the committee's report. The chairman of the committee, Deputy Bruton's party colleague, is on record as stating that the committee will have to deliberate on the matter. I am sure the Deputy accepts that. These matters bear no relation to the proposal currently before the House.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This issue must also be deliberated upon by the House.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There is a requirement for the Government to relate to the House its judgment on the issues that have emerged thus far into the public domain. It is a long-standing convention in this House that Members may oppose the taking of a certain matter on grounds of the urgency of other issues. I am taking that opportunity, which was well flagged in the past.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Dylan Thomas himself would not have been as imaginative as that.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I believe he would. I am following a long tradition in this regard.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Imagination and vision are what is needed.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Imaginative actions were taken in Cocoa Beach.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I ask Deputy Bruton to conclude; otherwise, we will be here all day.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I would have finished by now if the Ceann Comhairle had not made his intervention, which I accept.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I had to do it.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I accept that. However, I wish to ask the Minister for Finance, who is directly responsible, whether it is his view that a severance package to the chief executive officer of FÁS should be made conditional on his co-operating with the inquiry to which the Ceann Comhairle adverted. There is a general belief that this should be the case.

Will the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, who was the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment at the time of these events, make a statement in the House today to clarify matters both of ministerial oversight of these boards and in regard to the issues in which she has suggested she was involved?

Has the Minister for Finance instructed every other agency to publish its approach and practices in regard to expenses, flights and spouses travelling? We are entitled to this information at a time when every family in the country is under huge pressure and expects frugality and prudence to be the order of the day on the part of those who are in charge and spending public money.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will the Government accept a special notice question to deal with the important matter to which Deputy Bruton referred?

Yesterday, the Government announced to great fanfare another programme for public service reform and customer charters. Implicit in that is the requirement for legislation to allow staff in public bodies and agencies to be transferable with those in Departments. Will the Government take the opportunity, in drafting that necessary legislation, to make provision for greater oversight of agencies by the Minister for Finance and the relevant Ministers in order to ensure that all expenditure on the part of those agencies is necessary and in accordance with their remit? Given the importance of the work done by FÁS for people who are unemployed and will soon be unemployed, there must be a reformation of the agency and a rebuilding of confidence in its disposal of the €1 billion allocated to it. The Government implicitly committed itself yesterday to introducing new legislation.

It is time that agencies had rules. I understand that many Ministers and Ministers of State were invited by FÁS to visit the NASA base at Cape Canaveral. I do not know why they all needed to go. We do not have an issue with personal grooming, but we do have an issue with value for taxpayers' money.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

You made your point, Deputy.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I understand that female politicians have to try to look our best, just as much as men, when they are working on behalf of the State. However, there is a very important principle. At the time, the Minister was earning a gross salary of €200,000.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We cannot go into that now. You have had your run.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is important to old age pensioners. Will the Minister bring in legislation on this issue?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Order Paper does not accommodate the issue raised by Members which concerns the wider public. This issue is the significant erosion of confidence in FÁS as a very important body entrusted with the training and retraining of people in the workforce, the greater number of whom are unemployed. That is a very serious matter which must be addressed in the House. I do not believe, with the continuous drip-drip release of information in recent days, that we can allow for time to elapse before we receive the report from the Comptroller and Auditor General. We need to address this urgently in the House in order to restore that confidence.

I call on the Government to provide for the required time on the Order Paper so that these matters can be addressed. The most important thing today is not what moneys were spent on the Minister's hair-do. The most important thing to do is to restore confidence in FÁS, which is a significant agency of the State and which has been seriously damaged. I ask the Minister to accommodate an opportunity——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy has made his point.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will conclude in one moment. We do not need only statements, as others have demanded. We need a proper address, which is a full debate on all the issues involved, especially the core concern today. It is not the price of a hair-do, especially when put in the context of thousands spent on fillers and paint for the former Taoiseach. We need to address the core issue, which is the restoration of confidence in FÁS.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The reason the Government has not made time available to discuss issues relating to FÁS is that we respect the procedures of this House and of the Committee of Public Accounts, which is our chosen instrument for the investigation of these matters and which is investigating them this morning. It would be highly undesirable to have a parallel debate in this House, when the board members of FÁS are making themselves accountable to the committee.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We have no certainty that this is the case. That is the Minister's assertion, but that is not the view of every Member of the House.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy, you are out of order.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I accept that there may be divergent views, but the House has procedures and the chosen instrument of this House, namely, the Committee of Public Accounts, is deliberating on these matters today.

The board of FÁS met last night to consider the circumstances which led to the resignation of the director general and to see how the organisation can move forward following recent controversies. The board expressed its grave concern about these matters, but stated that in deference to the fact that the Committee of Public Accounts will subject the matters to legitimate parliamentary scrutiny this morning, it would not make a detailed statement at this point and will reconvene on Friday, once the committee hearing is complete, and will issue a full statement thereafter.

Deputy Burton raised the question of the legislation which would be necessary to implement the task force report on reform of the public service, known as Transforming Public Services. It is likely that as the implementation of the report is undertaken, the case for further legislative provision will arise. The concern expressed by the Deputy on the degree of control and the accountability that can be exercised over agencies and non-commercial semi-State bodies can be addressed in that context.

Deputy Bruton asked me to outline the position on circulars and foreign travel. These circulars are long standing and yesterday I reminded Department officials to be aware of——

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is not what I asked. I asked the Minister was he going to get them to publish their recent practice.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy is only allowed one intervention.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister knows the question I asked.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The practices are outlined in the rules. I can outline the circulars to the House if the Deputy so wishes. There is a number of circulars that deal with foreign travel, such as Circular 36 of 1971, Circular 11 of 1982, and Circular 31 of March 1998. They deal with foreign travel policy documents, travelling and subsistence regulations. The primary circular governing these matters is the circular sent out on 31 March 1998. The normal practice is that the Department of Finance communicates with other Departments. It is a matter for those Departments to communicate the matter to agencies and bodies under their remit. I requested the Departments yesterday to reiterate the provisions of these circulars to the relevant agencies, as well as to their own officers.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Did the Minister ask them to publish the——

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The practices are outlined in the circulars. The circulars contain the guidelines.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

They are the desirable practices.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

They are the recommendations.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The question whether a practice is observed is a matter of legitimate parliamentary investigation, and can be dealt with in the normal way.

The Committee of Public Accounts is discussing the activities of FÁS this morning and the board of FÁS discussed these matters yesterday evening. It is not normal for the Government to reaffirm its confidence in the very many boards that exist under its aegis. In the first instance, the line Minister is responsible for communicating the concerns of the Government to any relevant board. The Tánaiste has been working with the chairman of FÁS on these issues. She has mentioned certain concerns to me and I have no doubt that proposals will be brought to the Government in due course.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On a point of order, that did not sound like a ringing vote of confidence——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is not a point of order. There can only be one intervention on this debate.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with No. 16, without debate, be agreed to" put and declared carried.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I would like to raise two items on the Order of Business. There has been an announcement that a consortium of Irish investors is willing to become involved in recapitalising the Irish banks. Does the Minister plan to introduce legislation to allow the National Pensions Reserve Fund to invest matching funds? Or is it still his view that public investment would only be a last resort, and that he would prefer a take-over of Irish banks by international venture capitalists to an investment that would predominantly keep Irish banking in Irish hands?

Yesterday the Government announced the establishment of the fifth review group in the last 15 months on the public services, none of which has yet produced tangible savings in public spending. Does the Minister plan changes to the totally dysfunctional way in which budgets are presented to the House? They are presented in a way which neither tracks down waste nor rewards high performance, but are all about the demands of agencies and not the clients, and what is to be spent and not what is to be achieved.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We cannot go into that. I ask the Minister to respond on the legislation.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is a matter for the Order of Business as to whether there will be a change in the dysfunctional budget process that presents Estimates——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is not, as you well know.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The heart of our business is the way in which budgets are presented. Of course it is in order.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will not get involved in an argument with the Deputy. The correct way of dealing with that is to put down a question on it. Is legislation promised on banking, which actually is even stretching it?

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

A review of the National Pensions Reserve Fund was announced in my budget speech and has been completed by Mr. Maurice O'Connell, a former Secretary General of the Department of Finance and Governor of the Central Bank. I am studying the conclusions of that review and no decision has been taken on legislation to date.

On the issue of the possible use of the NPRF, I have indicated at all stages that the use of public funds should be a last resort in the context of investment in the banking sector. I welcome private investment in our banking institutions from whatever source.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Bring in the sharks.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Does that include the Bin Laden family?

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I have made that clear in recent days. Any such source and any such investment ——

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

They are carpetbaggers.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We must be assured that any such investment is in the public interest.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It will be another Eircom.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It must be in the interests of the people of this State and of the maintenance of the banks as viable credit institutions. I have not ruled out co-investment by the State in support of any such private investment and the State is not committed to any particular private investor.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister had better do something about it soon.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I especially welcome the announcement that a fresh consortium emerged yesterday.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will the Ceann Comhairle allow a special notice question in respect of the rules governing the payment of expenses and costs in a range of State agencies in order to ensure that personal costs, which ought to be covered by office holders' salaries and expense allowances, are met by them? This is important. Will the Ceann Comhairle allow a special notice——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is a matter——

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is a question for the Ceann Comhairle.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There can be no blank cheques given.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Quite a few have been given already.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Blankety blank.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is open to Deputy Burton to table a question on that matter and it will be considered. However, I can assure the Deputy of one thing. I have no intention of spending the Order of Business discussing hairdos, pedicures or manicures. I am not doing that. If the Deputy puts down the question, I will consider it. In the meantime——

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The question has already been submitted.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Let us be clear here. In fairness to Deputy Bernard Allen and his all-party committee, the Committee of Public Accounts is dealing with this issue this very day. I have no intention of usurping his or his committee's function. Were I to do so, it would be a denigration by me and the House of the Committee of Public Accounts and I will not do it.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will the Minister for Finance make a detailed statement to the House in respect of Irish banks and the fact that there are foreign equity capitalists circling the banks, like vultures, poised to take them over? We have, in this House, no capacity to learn about this other than what we read in the newspapers.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy Burton cannot take carte blanche on the Order of Business.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I understand that legislation——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is not in order. There is another way of raising the matter, as the Deputy well knows.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will additional legislation or amendments to existing legislation——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is legislation promised?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——be required in the event that co-investment, to which the Minister has just referred, by the National Pensions Reserve Fund and unknown foreign interests in Irish banks is to take place? I understand such co-investment is currently outside the terms of reference of the NPRF.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is legislation promised in this area?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will it require fresh legislation?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is legislation promised in this area?

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There is no legislation promised. On the general suggestion, I wish to make the point that while private interests can, of course, express an interest in investing in banks and financial institutions, that does not mean that the State is committed to any of them. Our duty, on this side of the House, is to ensure the banks are operated in the public interest and provide credit for the economy.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I ask the Ceann Comhairle for his patience in allowing me to raise an important matter.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am not sure I have any left.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Patience is scarce this morning.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Ceann Comhairle was good enough to allow me to raise a matter on the Adjournment of the House on Tuesday last, 25 November, regarding the availability of suitably qualified inspectors for schools in Wexford and Kerry. The Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Hoctor, replied to me on behalf of the Government and the Department that evening. I am not sure if the Minister of State or the Department of Education and Science withheld information but gutter politics was played.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I cannot re-hash that now.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am not sitting down until I get a reply or——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will tell the Deputy what will happen. The Deputy will sit down. If the Chair rules that he will sit down, he will do so or he will leave the House.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will not leave the House.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I ask the Deputy to put his question.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will not be leaving the House until I get an answer.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy should put his question then.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On Tuesday the Department and the Minister of State withheld vital information. A school received word on Wednesday morning, at 9.30 a.m. that the issue had been sorted out but the Minister of State was not able to inform me of this on Tuesday at 10.30 p.m. That is absolute gutter politics.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There is nothing I can do about that.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I want a reply on this. Either the Minister of State lied to the House——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy, there is a long-standing precedent——

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Mouse O'Dea did the same thing yesterday.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

If the Deputy wishes to make a substantive allegation against a Member in the House, there is a methodology whereby he can do that. He can do it by way of substantive motion but he may not throw such a remark or allegation across the floor of the House. That applies to every Member and I will enforce it strictly. I must insist now that the Deputy withdraws the word lie, in accordance with precedent, as has every Member of this House, to the best of my knowledge, since the foundation of the State.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Untruth is acceptable.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will the Deputy withdraw it?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I withdraw the word lie but let me state categorically——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Now, this cannot be dealt with across the floor of the House.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It can be dealt with. Deputy Hoctor did not tell the full truth.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I must ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

She did not tell the full truth.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy must resume his seat. The Chair is standing. I am asking the Deputy to resume his seat. If the Deputy does not resume his seat I will have to——

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On a point of order.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

What is the Deputy's point of order?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Can the Minister of State outline whether she misled the House on Tuesday?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is not a point of order.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

She withheld information——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is not a point of order. As I have explained to the Deputy, there is a methodology for dealing with this.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

What resources are open to me?

Seán Power (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The sin bin.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

What I would like the Deputy to do, without getting into an argument across the floor of the House with him, is to call to my office after the Order of Business to see if the matter can be resolved. Will the Deputy do that?

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

If it is not resolved, the Government will not be getting any more pairs from now on.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I cannot be anymore reasonable than that.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Mouse O'Dea did the same thing to Deputy McGinley yesterday.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I must move on. I call Deputy Crawford.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy McGinley is a long-standing member of this House. Mouse O'Dea said he would tell his colleagues——

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I wish to make a point.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy Sheahan——

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——and he would not give him the information.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Hold on one minute, now, Deputy Ring. Deputy Sheahan is always welcome to make a point.

Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That was a joint adjournment debate matter between Deputy Kehoe and myself and I also wish to voice my dissatisfaction.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I call Deputy Crawford. We will see how the matter may be advanced but I cannot discuss it now. I am trying to be as fair as I can.

Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will try to be as in line as possible. On a number of occasions in this House we discussed the issue of the attachment of fines and were promised that a Bill would be introduced to deal with that issue. I notice that debt collectors have been appointed instead. Can the Minister assure us that some effort will be made to bring in an attachment of fines Bill to sort out the problem?

In light of all of the problems with cross-Border businesses, as well as those relating to FÁS and job creation, when can the Industrial Development Bill that was promised for this session be expected? The situation is extremely serious from the perspective of job losses, especially in the Border region.

The Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, will want to advise us on how to save money in light of what has happened recently but how can she justify patients being treated under private structures when she has actually closed wards in the public system?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We were going well there until the very end. That last one is out.

Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

When will the health information Bill be introduced so that we can discuss these issues?

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Fines Bill is before the House on Second Stage. It is intended to publish the industrial development Bill in this session. The health information Bill is on public consultation at present, prior to the approving of the text.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Yesterday we passed the Finance Bill.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

No we did not.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Under a freedom of information request, it has become public knowledge that advice was given to the Minister for Finance with regard to the decision on the over 70s——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There is another way of raising that.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I simply want to ask a question. Given that this advice turned out to be better than what the Government persisted with, will the Minister give an undertaking that in future he might take advice from staff in his Department, who clearly have a better feel for the reality on the ground?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We will move on. I ask the Deputy to stop.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

He could have saved the pensioners of this country a lot of anxiety——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

He could have, of course. I call Deputy Quinn.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

He could have saved——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy Reilly, I am calling Deputy Quinn.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On the same matter——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is out of order, Deputy O'Sullivan.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We have been promised legislation——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy may tell me what it is.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——about taking the medical cards from the over-70s. I want to ask about that specific legislation. The Minister was advised that there were significant risks in taking this action. Does he intend to proceed with this legislation or will he leave the medical cards with the over-70s in a spirit of generosity?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister to reply to Deputy Reilly and Deputy O'Sullivan.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The legislation will be finalised in the next few weeks. The document in question was prepared subsequent to the Government decision and was circulated to the Department of Health and Children. The focus of the document was concern about whether the necessary savings would be effected on foot of the Government decision.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is the Government going ahead?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I seek the guidance of the Ceann Comhairle in a matter. As I understand it, the Ceann Comhairle has the responsibility to uphold the rights of all Deputies on all sides. Deputies have the right to hold Ministers to account and one of the ways we do so is by asking parliamentary questions. The Ceann Comhairle's office has no responsibility for the content of those questions and I understand this. However, what role, if any, does the Ceann Comhairle or the Committee on Procedure and Privileges have where a Department, in this specific instance the Department of Education and Science, consistently refuses to answer questions on the basis that it would take an inordinate amount of time or that the question is not relevant or more or less that the Deputy can just shove off? I have chapter and verse and an expansive file of such replies in my office going back for just over a year. What are the rights of Deputies on this side of the House to seek the Ceann Comhairle's protection to get a definitive answer, not the content of the answer but to get a definitive answer to a legitimate question?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Unfortunately, the Chair has no function with regard to replies from Departments. The adequacy of replies is clearly a question which can be dealt with by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I recommend that Deputy Quinn asks for the matter to be discussed there.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On a point of clarification, if I and perhaps other colleagues bring to the Ceann Comhairle's attention, to the attention of the committee over which he presides, a sample number of questions, they could be examined and he could consider whether the Executive was thwarting the constitutional rights of elected Deputies of this House and take whatever action he deems appropriate.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Certainly the Committee on Procedure and Privileges can discuss the issue Deputy Quinn has raised and then if it is seen to be appropriate to do so, we can take the matter up with the relevant Minister.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Thank you, Sir.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will not delay the House. There is great anger on this side of the House about the subject raised by Deputy Quinn. Even yesterday, the behaviour of a senior Minister when he said to a colleague of mine that he would not give the answer to this House but that he would give it to his party colleague from Donegal——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We had this discussion yesterday.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I remind the Ceann Comhairle that we fought to have a democracy not a dictatorship and we have a dictatorship over there at the moment——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is why the House has Standing Orders which are agreed by all Members of the House.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I would like to see this Government unemployed and all on a FÁS scheme. That is what should happen.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We must move on with the Order of Business.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In the matter of management companies and the promised legislation attached to them, I know it is very complex and difficult for the Government to deal with, but it has taken three years to get to the stage where the Attorney General has been asked to handle the preparation of the legislation. Three Ministers are still involved in this area, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I raised this matter at the Whips' meeting because as a Whip I am very aware of the huge volume of legislation that of necessity has to come out of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It was indicated in the House that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, or the Minister might sponsor the Bill. If that were to be so, my fear is we would never see the Bill in the House because of the volume of work in that Department. I understand it was being referred to Government to see if one of the less legislatively busy Departments or Ministers might take the Bill rather than the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. A new urgency has arisen with regard to this legislation as well as the difficulties that were there all along.

If the Fine Gael Whip could stay quiet, the House would be able to hear me. Management companies are now going broke and people have nobody to whom to pay the charge. They cannot sell their houses when they need to — if anybody would buy them — because there is a lien on their title which they cannot clear because there is nobody to clear it. This is a new situation arising as well as all the other difficulties.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The three Departments are now preparing the relevant heads of the Bill and they will have agreed the heads shortly. The Attorney General has taken a personal interest in the matter, as Deputy Stagg outlined. The Bill will then have to be drafted as a matter of urgency. With regard to the lead Department, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is the current lead Department. I will draw Deputy Stagg's views to the attention of the Government.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Woolly thinking appears to be the order of the day on the Government front benches, with the possible exception of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Will the Minister for Finance intervene with his colleague, Deputy Brendan Smith, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, to address the plight of the sheep sector? There are farmers picketing outside the Department at the moment and we have had much promised intervention on foot of the Aylward report with the Minister lecturing Europe on the sheep sector.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There is another way of raising that matter.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We now have some latitude arising out of the CAP health check to make progress on this matter and he is refusing to so do. Will the Minister intervene with him?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There is another way of raising that matter.

P J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

How long more will the sheep be in the pen to draw attention to the issue?

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On promised legislation, in light of the recent media reports that ambulances have been held up at Beaumont Hospital due to a shortage of beds, I refer to the health (miscellaneous provisions) Bill. I bring to his attention the case of a man in his 40s lying in a hospital bed in Beaumont Hospital since last April who cannot be discharged because the home support is not there at the moment. Can this situation be addressed so that sick people can be in acute hospital beds rather than people who should go home?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister on the legislation.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This Bill will be ready next year.

Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Chop the home help.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I seek clarification from the Minister with regard to the difficulties the Finance Bill poses for traders in the Border counties. Is the Minister aware that on the submission of a VAT number for the importation of goods from Northern Ireland there is derogation on VAT? This is a very important anomaly.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It might be but it cannot be raised now.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is to do with the Finance Bill.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy cannot ask about the content of the Finance Bill. He is taking French leave now and it cannot be done.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

VAT is not payable. Traders on the Border are being devastated. On the submission of a VAT number there is VAT derogation.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There are several ways of raising that matter as the Deputy well knows. I call Deputy Higgins. As I have said to several other Members this morning, there are other ways of raising a matter. If I make an exception for Deputy Perry I must make an exception for everybody. Much as I would like to, I cannot.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Traders in the Border counties are devastated.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is not in order. There is another way of raising that, as you well know.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is the Minister aware there is VAT derogation on submission of a VAT number?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Bill is going through the House and the Deputy can raise the matter on Committee or Report Stages. He cannot raise it now.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is the Minister aware the reduction of VAT is having a dire impact? There is nothing being done for traders in the Border counties.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy must resume his seat because we cannot keep this up. I call Deputy Higgins.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Nobody is speaking on this here.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Next Wednesday in Oslo, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, on behalf of Ireland, will sign the convention against cluster munitions. This convention is welcomed by different parties in the House. Consistent with that and our discussion in this House on the matter, will the Minister for Finance submit those companies who are part of any consortium for the Irish banking sector such as the Carlyle Corporation, which may have been involved in funding the production of cluster munitions, to the same ethical test we have often asked for in this House for the National Pensions Reserve Fund, which had the support of all sides of the House and equally, when the House was discussing the NTMA? It is at the heart of the Department of Foreign Affairs mission statement that we will promote human rights. Given that the company is one of the tenth biggest defence contractors and has an eminent board which has assisted in procuring defence contracts and so forth, is it not appropriate for the Minister to publish ethical guidelines? The most important issue is that we have liquidity in the Irish banking system but it needs to be qualified by a social responsibility and an ethical foreign policy test. Is it the Minister's intention to address these issues in any consideration he might be making of the involvement of outside bankers in the Irish banking system?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I do not think that is in order.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I do not know if it is in order.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am afraid not, Deputy D. Higgins, although it is very interesting.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It could be a case of taking assistance from the devil himself. The Minister will be readily able to find in the text of the international convention, which I am happy was signed in Oslo, references to using moral suasion and every influence in asking people to desist from the production of cluster munitions. One cannot be against them on Wednesday and then be looking for the people who fund their production on a Thursday.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We cannot go into it today.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Recently, there was some serious flooding around the country. This was compounded by inadequate drainage in rivers and streams, particularly in my area of north Roscommon and south Leitrim where the River Feorish flooded. Clearly, the local authorities and the Office of Public Works——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

No, we cannot discuss that now.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is on proposed legislation, a Cheann Comhairle.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is extraordinary if it is. What legislation is it?

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will legislation be introduced to define the areas of responsibility for flood relief between local authorities and the Office of Public Works?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is legislation promised in this area?

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am not aware of any promised legislation.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In my discussions with the Office of Public Works I was informed legislation in this area was promised.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There is no legislation promised in this area.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is there any sign of that Bill being published? Is the Minister aware of such legislation?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister said there is none. No, he is not aware of it.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will go back to the Office of Public Works and tell it there is no such legislation.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Do that.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

May I add that the Office of Public Works was telling me mistruths that there is a Bill coming in to deal with this area.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I call on Deputy Bannon. I was suspicious from the outset.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I was well in order.

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There has been a massive cut in the budgets and funding for our national heritage under the watch of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am not the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

He said "heritage".

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

When will the national monuments Bill be published to address the dilapidated state of our national monuments across the country? When will the noise Bill to address noise pollution be published?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister to reply on the national monuments Bill.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is not possible at this stage to indicate when the national monuments Bill will be published.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is no more than a call to patriotic action.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I reflected on Deputy Michael D. Higgins's earlier comments. The cluster munitions legislation is before the Seanad. It is not clear to me that the matter raised by the Deputy arises under that legislation. Under the bank guarantee scheme, I have powers to remind the financial institutions of their social obligations. I will draw the Deputy's comments to their attention.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I appreciate that.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On the matter that my colleague Deputy Paul Kehoe raised earlier, I would like to bring to the House's attention a simple fact. On the said Tuesday when Deputies Paul Kehoe and Tom Sheahan raised the matter on the Adjournment, I received a written reply from the Minister for Education and Science at 5.30 p.m. The information in my reply was not the same as that given in the Adjournment debate at 10.30 p.m.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I have agreed to meet with the Deputies concerned.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We now have evidence that the same Department gave me information at 5.30 p.m. which it did not put on the record of the House at 10.30 p.m.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will be discussing this with the Deputies concerned. If Deputy Brian Hayes wants to discuss it as well, he can join the meeting.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will the Ceann Comhairle take the evidence I have just given him and adjudicate on it accordingly?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I cannot discuss it across the floor of the House.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is a serious matter when a Department says one thing to a Deputy by way of written parliamentary question at 5.30 p.m. and another thing to another Member at 10.30 p.m. that evening.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I said I would discuss it with the Deputies to see what is the position. I call on Deputy Kathleen Lynch.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

At least I will be in order.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is withholding information.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is a serious matter.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We cannot go on about this all morning. It is 11.15 a.m., Deputy Brian Hayes.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

All Ministers will be aware of the urgency of the mental capacity Bill. When will the heads of the Bill be published? There is a concern of another court case arising which will not be able to be dealt with because of the lack of legislation.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is expected that the Bill will be published in the middle of next year. Heads of the Bill have been approved by the Government.