Dáil debates
Wednesday, 26 November 2008
Other Questions
Army Barracks.
3:00 pm
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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Is Question No. 72 to be taken with other questions?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Minister will answer that now.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 72, 74, 75, 79, 94, 116, 121, 123, 125, 130 and 132 together.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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This means the time limit for the question has trebled.
Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Question 72: To ask the Minister for Defence the provision that has been made for funding the provision of the additional office, living and storage accommodation at Finner Camp, Custume Barracks and Aiken Barracks required by the transfer to those locations of the personnel from the barracks recently announced for closure; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42850/08]
Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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Question 74: To ask the Minister for Defence the anticipated cost of reassigning the 650 military personnel, arising from the budget 2009 announcement of the closure of a number of military barracks and posts; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42759/08]
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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Question 75: To ask the Minister for Defence the budgetary costs provided for in facilitating the barracks closures announced as a result of budget 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42922/08]
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 79: To ask the Minister for Defence if the personnel in those barracks that will be closed have been briefed by officials of his Department on their financial entitlements on changing stations; if such briefings are planned; when they will take place; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42864/08]
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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Question 94: To ask the Minister for Defence if his attention has been drawn to the concern expressed by members of the Defence Forces and the broader community in Donegal at the social and economic implications of the decision to close a number of Army posts in Donegal; if he will reconsider the decision; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42757/08]
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Question 116: To ask the Minister for Defence if recent decisions to dispose of a number of military installations throughout the country were driven by financial curtailments or if a fundamental appraisal of such installations was carried out with a view to improving the efficacy and integrity of the Defence Forces relative to such installations; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42801/08]
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 121: To ask the Minister for Defence if he is satisfied that adequate accommodation will be provided for all of those members of the Defence Forces who are to be relocated by 31 January 2009, arising from the announcement made on budget 2009 day of the closure of St. Bricin's Hospital and a number of military barracks; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42755/08]
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Question 123: To ask the Minister for Defence if it is his intention to visit Donegal and meet the personnel and families of both Lifford and Rockhill Army bases who are concerned at the decision to close both; the disruption that it will inflict on both communities and the fact that north Donegal, a Border area, will be left without an Army base, and the security, economic and social implications of closure; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42684/08]
Niall Collins (Limerick West, Fianna Fail)
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Question 125: To ask the Minister for Defence if work has started on the process of closing the four Border military posts; if the Defence Forces have a timetable in place for these closures; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42682/08]
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 130: To ask the Minister for Defence if he will outline, in regard to the budget 2009 announcement, the decisions to close a number of barracks and military posts; the estimated value of each such site, including buildings; the manner in which it is intended to dispose of each site; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42758/08]
Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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Question 132: To ask the Minister for Defence if his attention has been drawn to the concern expressed by members of the Defence Forces and the broader community in Longford at the social and economic implications of the decision to close Connolly Barracks, Longford; if he will reconsider the decision; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42756/08]
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 72, 74, 75, 79, 94, 116, 121, 123, 125, 130 and 132 together.
The military authorities have conducted a detailed review of the immediate requirements to enable the closure of the relevant barracks and the redeployment of personnel to their new locations. In addition, medium-term capital works required in Athlone, Dundalk and Finner, to accommodate the transferring personnel in the longer term, have also been identified. Planning is currently ongoing to acquire whatever facilities are necessary, which I am advised are fairly minimal, to ensure that everything necessary is in place to accommodate the transferring personnel before the closure date of the end of January.
There are significant facilities already available in these new locations. The immediate costs involved in providing the necessary additional facilities at all three locations is less than €500,000. Including allowances and transport, the cost over 15 months is approximately €3.2 million, against annual recurring savings of approximately €2.7 million. Over a three year period based on current estimates, the cost to the Department of closing the proposed barracks would amount to approximately €5.9 million while total receipts savings, including receipts from the disposal of the relevant properties, should amount to around €29.5 million, a net gain of €23.6 million. These figures do not take account of the qualitative benefits accruing to the Defence Forces from improvements in collective training, savings on administration and management of the barracks being closed or the costs of currently transporting troops from the barracks being closed for training, etc.
The consolidation of the Defence Forces formations into a smaller number of locations is a key objective of the White Paper on Defence. The dispersal of personnel over an extended number of locations is a major impediment to essential collective training. It also imposes increased and unnecessary overheads on the Defence Forces in terms of barrack management, administration, maintenance and security. The consolidation process is designed to facilitate higher training standards, while also freeing up under-utilised resources and personnel for operational duties.
The funding previously realised from the disposal of surplus barracks and properties has, together with pay savings, provided some of the resources required for infrastructure, training-area development and equipment procurement. It is my intention that the funding and savings from this initiative will, in accordance with current Government policy, again be reinvested in the Defence Forces.
In terms of the socio-economic impact on local communities from the closure plans, I would anticipate that this should be negligible. Most of the personnel serving in these installations live in the areas and will continue to do so in future. Indeed, the closures could benefit the areas as the barracks are redeveloped, which was the experience of the last consolidation process.
At the request of the representative associations my Department did arrange for the briefing of personnel at Longford and Monaghan Barracks and Rockhill and Lifford military posts on the change of station allowance entitlements. The purpose of these briefings is to give an outline of the change of station allowance scheme to the relevant personnel and to address as far as possible any issues of concern that may arise.
The Chief of Staff has visited each of the barracks to meet personnel. Staff concerns can also be put forward through partnership and representative arrangements. If there are issues arising these will be brought to my attention and will be addressed in the appropriate manner. I have also met with a number of delegations comprising local representatives and Members of Dáil Éireann from the areas and have explained the situation to them as best I could.
Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I know the Minister does not have available the cost benefit analysis as of yet and I appreciate the fact it will be made available. If a cost benefit analysis is done on any public service infrastructure in a county such as Donegal or Kerry, the more one moves away from the core obviously it will cost the State more and if one examines everything from education to public servants and other Government services of course it will show that it will cost the State. This is why we subsidise flights to Carrickfinn and have a public service obligation arrangement for Derry city airport. We must have these arrangements. The argument that there is no socio-economic impact is not good enough. The president of Letterkenny chamber of commerce strongly articulated that these measures will impact on the amount of money spent locally, for example. In the past eight years, €1.3 million has been invested in the barracks at Lifford and Rockhill. Will the Minister examine the possibility of a compromise solution? I realise this has been debated within the Minister's own party. Is there not a compromise solution? Two stations have been cherry-picked in north Donegal, which is a unique area. Is there not a compromise solution that might involve either one or the other station, because it is affecting the area on a socio-economic basis? There are also security issues which I will raise at a later date.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Several Deputies have indicated a desire to contribute.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure Deputy McHugh is not suggesting we could make savings by leaving alone the number of barracks, even though there are clearly too many for an army the size of the Irish Army. We are closing four of the seven barracks in the Border region. This is because the threat justifying the establishment of those barracks has disappeared. As far as I am aware, the British army has closed or is in the process of closing all military installations along the Border.
I refer to the point about the socio-economic benefits of the barracks put by the local chamber of commerce. There is a chamber of commerce in my constituency and occasionally it puts a case to me on some matter in good faith. We have all heard these arguments in cases where barracks have closed previously and they did not hold up. On one such occasion the same arguments about the possibility of people moving and spending money elsewhere were made, but most people did not move at all. If someone lives in a certain place that person will shop in the locality. Such people simply must travel a greater distance to work. I do not claim this is a strong argument, but we have found in the case of some barracks closures that the development which subsequently took place on the sites of the former barracks were of economic benefit to the region. I recognise that was in better economic times.
I realise the intent of Deputy McHugh's remarks and I appreciate he proposes a compromise and that he does not completely oppose the policy. We have examined the matter very closely. There are people in my party who have made strong representations to me on the matter. We have examined the matter very closely and decided that the original decision as outlined in the budget will stand. I am confident that when considered in retrospect the decision will be of benefit from the point of view of cost savings and the consolidation of training operations.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There are several supplementary questions.
Brian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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I listened carefully to the remarks of the Minister on several related questions and I refer to the socio-economic argument against the closures. Will the Minister agree there was a very different economic climate in the aftermath of the closures ten years ago? There will not be a great deal of demand for the sites in question, namely, the 30 acres in Letterkenny, the 2.6 acres in Lifford, the 20 acres in Monaghan and perhaps even the eight acres in Dublin. In the short term to medium term there will be no major developments that will create employment in construction. It has never been more important to have money circulating in our towns throughout the country to the maximum extent possible. The retail trade is taking a significant hit throughout the country. I do not accept the argument that there will be an economic spin-off or improvement from the proposed land disposals in the short term, medium term or the longer term. Is the Minister seriously saying these properties will be sold for development in the short term or medium term and that the barracks will be replaced by projects which will benefit the local economy?
The Minister provided a figure of €500,000 associated with the cost of facilities and accommodation at the three other barracks to accommodate the people being transferred. It is very difficult to accept that this figure is accurate. I accept it is the estimate he has been given and I do not question that, but it seems, with 650 troops and 40 civilian personnel being transferred, a great deal more will be needed to finance the move. Does the Minister agree that the estimate of €30 million to be generated by the disposal of the properties is, to say the least, unrealistic?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I intended to address that point earlier when it was mentioned by Deputy O'Shea. Although I am certain no one in the House believes it, we cannot work on the assumption that the economy will never recover. Of course the economy will recover. We are under no obligation to rush out and sell those sites immediately. However, I understand from some of my officials that we have received some preliminary inquires about the lands even though they have not yet gone to tender and I have no intention of providing for that in the foreseeable future. Deputy O'Shea referred to the short and medium term, but it depends on what is meant. No one can say with certainty when the economy will recover sufficiently to allow us to yield the desired value from those sites, but it will happen. They will be an asset of the Defence Forces which we can sell and then reinvest the proceeds, as agreed with the Department of Finance, in building up the infrastructure, equipment and training to the benefit of the Defence Forces, especially for foreign missions.
I refer to the €500,000 mentioned by Deputy O'Shea. This is the estimate I have received for the immediate costs of transfer. It refers to the minimum necessary to enable the troops to move. That is all that can be spent in the short term and I understand that amount will be sufficient. Let us not forget that built into the cost of the move is the fact that we will spend €2.5 million in the next three years to improve further the facilities to which the troops will move.
Niall Collins (Limerick West, Fianna Fail)
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I compliment the Air Corps on its recent display at the official opening of Thomond Park. I am sure Deputy Deenihan would agree that it was a magnificent display and it added to the occasion.
I am mindful that we are discussing personnel and their families and we must keep this in the back of our minds. We are closing four out of seven barracks, which is better than closing seven out of seven. Can the Minister indicate if there is a mechanism whereby personnel can apply to be located at a location other than the designated location of that person's unit? Has a security assessment been carried out given the closures include Border posts? What will the mechanism be for the payment of change of station allowances for Army personnel and civilian employees?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I am very pleased that my fellow Limerick colleague, Deputy Collins, mentioned the opening of Thomond Park. It was a stupendous occasion, which words cannot begin to describe. I believe Deputy Deenihan was present.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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One should not ask who else was present.
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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I was unable to attend as I was very busy in the Dáil. However, I was there for the game in 1978, some 30 years ago, unlike 500,000 people who claimed to be there but could not possibly have been.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The stadium could only accommodate 14,000 people, yet 500,000 attended the game in 1978.
Deputy Collins asked if someone who was re-deployed from a barracks in Monaghan to Dundalk, or someone re-deployed from Lifford to Finner Camp could apply to move to a different location. The answer is "Yes"; it is possible to apply to a different location. I have instructed the military authorities to do everything possible to accommodate those people if they wish to go to a different location.
A security assessment has been done and the result is that there are no down-side security implications. I wish to make it clear that all civilian staff will continue to be employed. At the moment I am negotiating with the Department of Finance for a voluntary redundancy scheme — I emphasise the word "voluntary" — for the civilian staff, of which they will be entitled to avail if they wish. We do not have all the details yet and the Department of Finance has not finally agreed to the scheme but I am hoping to come to an agreement shortly. If civilian staff wish to be redeployed to any place other than the place to which they are being deployed, they can ask for that as well and I will do my best to accommodate them.
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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According to the recent IMC report, there has been an increase in dissident activity along the Border. As I understand it, the Border is now monitored from Finner Camp. However, the range of the helicopters currently at Finner is not large enough to carry out proper surveillance on the Border. I ask the Minister to clarify this.
As this is probably the last Question Time with the Minister before the closure at the end of January, my next question is with regard to the time frame. People are being asked to move, as we said before, in 14 weeks. If one asked a civil servant or a public servant to move to a decentralised post in that period it would not be acceptable to any of their representative unions. That is the concern here. The Minister has repeatedly stated in the House that if arrangements are not in place in the barracks — if there is any reason for not moving — he will be flexible with that date.
I ask the Minister to clarify the issue of Border security in the context of the IMC report, and also to confirm that the timeframe will be extended if arrangements are not made in time. Finally, can the Minister give us any specific date for the important meeting with PDFORRA?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The Army did a security analysis and reported to me that there were no down-side security implications. I have to take that as is. With regard to the timeframe, Deputy Deenihan will understand, as will others, that if one is doing something like this one must have a target time; otherwise, nothing will ever get started. The target time in this case is the end of January. If we do not manage to achieve the move by the end of January I will not lose any sleep over it. If we do not meet our target we do not meet it. It is as simple as that. What was the other question the Deputy asked?
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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It was about the meeting with PDFORRA.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I have written back to PDFORRA saying I was prepared to sit down and talk, not about the substance of the decision but about how it is being implemented, and about any issues such as station allowances and transport.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I have not yet heard back from the organisation.
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has met with everybody else.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I have not yet heard back. I have given it the opportunity to respond to me. However, if Deputy Deenihan is suggesting it, in the spirit of Christmas I will accept his suggestion that I contact PDFORRA and invite its representatives to a meeting.
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. That is fair enough.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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I do not know whether the Minister has replied to my specific question, No. 123.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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All the Munster fellows are sticking together.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Allow Deputy McGinley to continue.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Minister to consider that two of the stations being closed are in Donegal and to take account of the social, economic and security implications of this. The two stations that are being closed, Lifford and Rockhill, have been an excellent back-up to the civil authorities there for 30 or 40 years. In addition, there are still cross-Border incursions. I was at a funeral in the area some months ago and in the same graveyard that evening a man was taken across the Border and shot dead in Doneyloop. There are many incursions from Northern Ireland into Donegal. All of north Donegal will now be left without any military presence except Finner Camp. I have nothing against Finner; they are doing excellent work there with the Air Corps.
The Minister's colleague gave an undertaking that the Minister would respond positively to what I am going to ask him. In view of the fact that two stations are being closed and the consequent disruption to families, who have to leave their homes and travel through Barnesmore to Finner and so on, will the Minister do these families and his personnel in Lifford and Rockhill the courtesy of meeting them to explain his position, if only to thank them for services rendered so far?
I do not know whether the Minister has been in Donegal yet and visited any of these barracks, but before the final closure will he not visit them, as a gesture, and meet these people man to man? The Chief of Staff was there, but it was sop in áit na scuaibe. Deputy O'Shea will understand that. I mean no disrespect to the Chief of Staff, but as far as we are concerned the Minister is the kernel of the whole thing. Will the Minister go to Donegal and meet the personnel of these two camps?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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As I have told the House, a security assessment has been done by the military, which found that there would be no down-side implications. I know the military has acted as an aid to the civil power in Donegal and elsewhere. I have met delegations for hours and heard many stories about crime — people being shot and robbed and so on. That is primarily a matter for the Garda Síochána, not only in Donegal but in Limerick and elsewhere. There were seven military installations along the Border because of the situation in Northern Ireland, which has now come to an end. The British have closed their facilities and there is no justification for our keeping seven facilities open along the Border.
With regard to travelling to Donegal, Deputy McGinley has——
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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We will get the Minister a helicopter. We will get one of the helicopters to bring him up.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy McGinley's colleague, Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher, has already made strong representations——
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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——to me about going to Donegal and I am considering those.
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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He is very much against these closures.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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When I make a decision I will come back to Deputy Gallagher.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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What about Deputy McGinley? I put pressure on the Minister here and not behind closed doors.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I wish to advise the House that 13 Deputies have submitted——
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Not behind closed doors. We have had enough of that this week with FÁS and so on. The Minister should tell us now whether he is going to Donegal or not.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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He is going up, he said.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Is he going up or not? Is the Minister a man or a mouse?
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Tell us now. Is he going or is he not going? There were 500 people up there marching the other day. We went to meet them and promised to raise it here.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy will resume his seat, please.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Will he go or will he not?
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Come on. Is the Minister a man or a mouse?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy McGinley, please resume your seat.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should tell us before he goes. We all heard about what a great man he is down in Limerick.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is quite clear the Deputy wants to go to Donegal himself in a hurry.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Minister to be a man and tell us in the House that he will go up to Donegal and meet with these people——
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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If the Deputy does not resume his seat he knows he will have to leave the House.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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——who have looked after the security of this country for 30 or 40 years.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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All right. I ask the Deputy to leave the House.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is bringing party politics into it.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should tell us whether he is going or not. He should be a man or be a mouse.
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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He will tell the Deputy.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I ask the Minister to resume his seat.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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If the Minister goes out that door without giving me an answer he is a mouse. The Minister should stand up and tell us whether he will go.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy McGinley, please have some respect for the Chair. The Deputy is normally very orderly.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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I mean no disrespect to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I have occupied that chair for many hours.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy is a very orderly Deputy and he is obviously anxious to go to Donegal himself in a hurry——
Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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He is going to say it now. He is going to confirm it.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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——but I would rather the Deputy just took his seat.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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I take great umbrage that the Minister would tell another Deputy behind closed doors——
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I ask the Deputy to resume his seat. He is normally such an orderly Deputy.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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——but because I happen to be over here I am not representing Donegal at all.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy, resume your seat or——
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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I tell the Minister I have been representing Donegal for 30 years in the House and I will not take that from the Minister or from anywhere else over there.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will facilitate the Deputy. If he does not——
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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We have put up with it for too long and I will not put up with it any longer.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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If he does not take his seat, Deputy McGinley will leave the House.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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That is what it is. Is he going to Donegal or not?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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All right. I will name the Deputy.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Let there be no doubt about this. Is the Minister going to Donegal or is he not? That is what I want to hear. Is the Minister a man or a mouse? He is a mouse in my eyes. I ask the Minister to stand up and prove he is a man and that he is a Minister.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy will resume his seat, or I will adjourn the House.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Adjourn the House. There is no respect from the Minister.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will ask the Deputy one last time.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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I have as much right to be in this House as any other man or woman.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Will the Deputy please resume his seat?
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister going or is he not? That is what I want to find out.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will have to suspend the sitting.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The man behind the Minister — the Minister of State, who is also from Limerick — would tell me if he was in the Minister's boots.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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As the Deputy will not leave the House, I am suspending the sitting for ten minutes.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is trying to make it political. The Army is not political in this country.
Michael Ring