Dáil debates

Wednesday, 19 November 2008

Other Questions

Departmental Agencies.

3:00 pm

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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Question 76: To ask the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism the legislation that is required to achieve the rationalisation of agencies under the remit of his Department announced in budget 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [41242/08]

Photo of Paul Connaughton  SnrPaul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Question 77: To ask the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism the assessment that was carried out of potential savings resulting from the proposed merger of the National Archives, National Library and National Manuscript Commission; the projected savings to be achieved; the costs which it is envisaged might be associated with the amalgamation of these bodies; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [41248/08]

Photo of Noel CoonanNoel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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Question 84: To ask the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism the assessment of cost savings that was carried out in respect of the proposed amalgamation of the Irish Museum of Modern Art, Crawford Art Gallery and National Gallery of Ireland; the projected savings to be achieved; the costs which it is envisaged might be associated with the amalgamation of these bodies; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [41250/08]

Photo of Martin CullenMartin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 76, 77 and 84 together.

For the information of Deputies, it is worthwhile to set out the rationale behind the decision to combine the Irish Museum of Modern Art, Crawford Art Gallery and National Gallery of Ireland while retaining their separate brand identities, and the decision to merge the National Archives, Irish Manuscripts Commission and National Library. These decisions, which were announced in budget 2009, arose from the scrutiny by my Department of administrative costs which was undertaken earlier this year as part of the Government's efficiency review, with a particular focus on the number of State agencies and other bodies and in the context of the ongoing oversight exercised by my Department of these institutions against the backdrop of the 2009 Estimates process.

Deputies may be aware that the programme for Government contains a commitment to put the Irish Museum of Modern Art on a statutory footing. They may also be aware that the legislation underpinning the National Archives has been undergoing critical analysis by the National Archives Advisory Council and officials of my Department, with a view to updating both the functions of the National Archives and the management structures surrounding the archives.

Throughout this process, I was aware that some institutions had reasonably good numbers of support staff. However, the Crawford Art Gallery in Cork which recently came under my Department as a national cultural institution did not have in-house administrative support. Institutions such as this cannot be expected to function efficiently without the normal level of human resources, finance and other back-up.

As well as these particular and individual imperatives, I am obliged to ensure our national cultural institutions function through and are supported by administrative and other structures which are efficient and effective and reflect the principles of modernisation and flexibility set out in Towards 2016.

When one takes all these factors into consideration against the background that the expected continuing pressure on the public purse will not be matched by any decline in expectation or demand for quality customer services, the rationalisation of the support or back office functions within complementary national cultural institutions is not an optional consideration at this time and must be undertaken. Since the budget announcement on this matter, I have initiated a consultative process with the directors of the national cultural institutions involved. They have been requested to consider the future arrangements necessary to give effect to these decisions and bring forward any issues they perceive will need to be specifically addressed under various headings such as legislation, governance, unified management structures, unified support services and resources. I am also establishing consultative committees in respect of each project which will be led by the Department and will have in their membership representatives of the national cultural institutions. These committees will manage the many issues which will arise.

In parallel with this process work will commence on producing heads of a Bill to give effect to the required legislative changes. These changes will include amendment of the National Cultural Institutions Act 1997, National Archives Act 1986 and National Gallery of Ireland Acts 1854 to 1963 and the creation of new legislation. My objective in this development is to seek the best structures for our national cultural institutions in order that, in facing into times of stringency, they can continue to deliver core services to their respective customers to their normal and superlative standards.

I also want to ensure these institutions, which contribute collectively to the 3 million visitors our national cultural institutions receive annually, continue to be a core part of our tourism product. In more discerning tourism markets internationally, the national cultural institutions differentiate us as a destination of distinction and value. This summer, a visitor to Dublin could have viewed works by Bacon, Monet, Gauguin, Freud, Scully and Rembrandt and read original Yeats and Joyce manuscripts before enjoying the Berlin Philharmonic and catching a glimpse of an Oscar winning songwriter. This is the kind of cultural immersion and variety that few cities in Europe can offer. It is entirely appropriate that we continue to invest financially and legislatively in these internationally important institutions in order that they continue to flourish in the new economic environment. It is not possible at this stage to identify what savings, if any, will be realised through this process.

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I am surprised by the Minister's reply because he appears to suggest these measures were taken in the interests of the institutions in question and to improve the quality of the product provided to members of the public. The idea for these measures emanated from the Department of Finance and is purely a money saving exercise. Why has a cost analysis not been done to identify how much money will be saved? While I am fully in favour of eliminating quangos, none of the institutions under discussion is a quango. They are the anchor institutions of Irish culture with traditions dating back to the 18th century.

To decide on the back of an envelope whether to get rid of some or merge others and then suggest that this will somehow improve matters while at the same time saying it is a good idea to invest in cultural institutions does not make sense. How is that consistent with the Minister's capital budget for the cultural institutions being decreased by 48%?

Notwithstanding what might have to happen in the Crawford Gallery in Cork, how does the Minister intend, for instance, in the case of organisations such as the National Archives and the National Library to bring them together and somehow assume they are going to be more efficient as a result? Is there to be a new building and are they to come together on a single site? Is that the way the efficiencies and improvements are to be achieved? Does the Minister agree that these are not bloated organisations, which are overspending or overstaffed? Nothing could be further from the truth. How are the savings to be made?

Photo of Martin CullenMartin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I was disappointed with the first remarks made by the Deputy, and then quite happy with the second half, because she began to touch on the reality of the position. This is not for me, I can assure the Deputy, a simple issue of looking at figures on a page, drawing lines through them and achieving an outcome. That would not work and it would be foolish to approach it simply on cost-saving lines. A vast range of issues must be considered and everyone is concerned with getting the maximum return from these institutions, to give them the greatest possible remit in terms of their public functions and to substantially increase the number of visitors they enjoy. Cultural tourism is now a big business in Ireland. I opened a conference yesterday in Dublin and I was very encouraged by the scale and numbers of people involved, as well as by the international participants. More than 3 million tourists last year — and probably more this year — visited or will visit the cultural institutions. That is not to say they should be just left as they are. To me the Deputy is suggesting that we do nothing. Do we need 40 directors, for example, in three galleries to make them function?

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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How much is that saving?

Photo of Martin CullenMartin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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This is not about savings at all — and that is why I am putting the question to the Deputy. I have said I do not know whether there will be any savings at the end of it. The Deputy has raised a whole range of issues that I will be scrutinising in terms of whether they should be based in one location, amalgamated, what the board structure will be, the role of the chief executive, the HR functions and so on. There clearly is a good deal of duplication, even triplication, in so many of the institutes, where they all have utterly independent administrative functions. As to whether there can be greater efficiencies, the answer is probably "Yes", but to do much of this it must be decided what else needs to happen and whether the approaches to be taken will be cost-effective. The outcome I want is to maximise to the absolute end all of the institutes, including the National Archives — which I have a good deal of time for — in terms of their ability to be part and parcel of this country's cultural performance.

Photo of Mary UptonMary Upton (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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The Minister is presenting this amalgamation to the House as though it were a long-term strategy and something he had planned long before——

Photo of Martin CullenMartin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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This was actually going on long before I arrived in this Department.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Minister will please allow the Deputy to put the question before answering.

Photo of Mary UptonMary Upton (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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It coincided with budgetary requirements, and I suggest that this is not really case. To me this reads like cutting costs and finding means for making savings. I was very impressed with what the Minister had to say about cultural tourism, which is really important for the country, but bundling together all of these agencies that have quite different functions does not make sense as regards enhancing the attractions of cultural tourism. I wonder what is the logic.

On another point, I believe the Minister said he had asked the various directors to give their views to him on this. That sounds somewhat like asking turkeys about Christmas. The directors will surely not come up with a system whereby they will chop off their own heads and say, in effect, "I do not want to be a director any more — it makes a lot of sense to me". Behind this initiative, therefore, there must be some strategy or some plan.

Photo of Martin CullenMartin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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There is a serious plan of engagement, but the Deputy is presenting this as black and white. One of the greatest institutions in the world with which we are all familiar is the Smithsonian Institute. It has everything embraced within one structure; are the Deputies telling me it does not work? Scotland is——

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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They are funded.

Photo of Martin CullenMartin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Just hang on a minute. Scotland is an example where all the galleries and museums are under one structure, the National Galleries of Scotland. There is one national organisation there although we seem to believe there must be a board of directors to run everything in this country. A body must be independent, stand-alone, with its own managing director and ten other directors, HR and administrative people, or otherwise it cannot function. That, in my view, is a load of nonsense.

Photo of Mary UptonMary Upton (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Is the Minister telling us that what is required is one enormous capital investment?

Photo of Martin CullenMartin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy had listened to the answer I gave Deputy Mitchell — and she expanded on what I said — the answer to all these issues is that we need to look at whether there will be any savings. I am being quite open. There may not be any savings. Even if there are not, the question is whether those cultural institutions are getting the most out of the money being invested in them. For example, the National Archives is a wonderful body and has an extraordinary treasure of history, but only 18,000 people a year visit it. Some of the national archives in other countries——

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is located in a biscuit factory.

Photo of Martin CullenMartin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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——-have hundreds of thousands of people visiting them. They run major public programmes in a variety of areas. I should like to see our National Archives institute being put in a position to do that. If it is a fault of the structure or the funding that it cannot do that at the moment, let that fact emerge. That body contains an extraordinary store of this nation's archives and has the capacity to play a much greater role, both in terms of Irish people who want access to the archives; to attract people who want to use its resources for educative purposes, if they are following a master's, PhD programme or whatever; or simply tourists who have an interest in cultural tourism. We should not be afraid to tackle the issue, but we should not be prescriptive as regards outcomes.

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is absolutely right——-

Photo of Martin CullenMartin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy.

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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——-in saying he should not be afraid to tackle the issue. However, the issue should be tackled after he has done the analysis on whether there will be savings and increased efficiencies, and what must be spent in order to achieve those outcomes. The reality is that all those organisations are completely under-funded, particularly in terms of the structures they occupy. They are at the receiving end of more and more artefacts and materials every year and the National Archives next month will get another year's material but has nowhere to put it. The Minister wonders why nobody visits it. It is because it is locaed in a biscuit factory and they can find nothing. That is the reality. Investment is required. Will he say, at least, what the future of the National Archives is, in terms of the building it will occupy in the future? When exactly will the National Archives — which the Minister regards as so precious — get the building it merits? The reality is that we shall lose the archives in a fire or something else unless he does something about it.

Photo of Martin CullenMartin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I am glad the Deputy agrees fully with what I have said, as it is quite clear that she does. I appreciate that and feel like saying, "I rest my case". I and my Department are engaged with the National Archives. I fully accept the Deputy's point that the space for the type of storage necessary is utterly inadequate and I believe the OPW has sourced a facility that will meet the requirements in that regard. However, that is only part of the solution and not the full answer.

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Can the Minister give the House details of that?

Photo of Martin CullenMartin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have the details in front of me because they are under negotiation at the moment.

Photo of Olivia MitchellOlivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I would be very interested to hear the details. Is it a location that will be acceptable to the National Archives? Is it a new purpose-built facility that will provide the necessary temperature controls, fire and water requirements and so on?

Photo of Martin CullenMartin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I believe it will meet all the requirements. Part of the brief was that the property would have to meet all the standards required for the storage of national archive material. However, I do not have the details at this stage and cannot say whether anything is finalised.