Dáil debates
Thursday, 13 November 2008
Order of Business
10:30 am
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It is proposed to take No. 3, Nursing Homes Support Scheme Bill 2008 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to adjourn at 2 p.m., if not previously concluded; and No. a15, statements on the killing of Shane Geoghegan. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the proceedings on No. a15 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 3.30 p.m. and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the statements shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 60 minutes, and shall be confined to a Minister or Minister of State and to the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and Sinn Féin, who shall be called upon in that order, and who may share their time, which shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; and (ii) immediately following the statements, a Minister or Minister of State shall take questions for a period not exceeding 30 minutes.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There is one proposal to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. a15 agreed to?
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I am not objecting to the Order of Business but when is it proposed that the Nursing Homes Support Scheme Bill 2008 will come back to the House? I understand it is not scheduled for next week's business.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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We can discuss it with the Whips but it will probably come back to the House the week after next.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the proposal agreed? Agreed. I call Deputy Richard Bruton on the Order of Business.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Many people will be disturbed to hear prominent economic commentators expressing pessimism about the economic leadership we are receiving in this country and questioning once again whether the budget, which has only been passed a few weeks, will actually require a supplementary budget in the near future.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot raise the budget on the Order of Business.
Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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What cuts is the Deputy talking about now?
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Can the Tánaiste continue to express confidence that there will be no requirement for a supplementary budget?
The country's economic future is very much at stake. Today, we heard one of the largest banks will be curtailing its lending. Almost half of the members of one prominent organisation——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I understand it is the Deputy's area of interest and it is all a matter of interest but——
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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A Cheann Comhairle, if you give me a moment I will come to the question on legislation; you have to allow me to outline the context.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Let him go on, a Cheann Comhairle.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Almost half of small and medium-sized enterprises are claiming they cannot get borrowing for overdrafts, for term loans or for stocking purposes. The Government has adopted a wait and see strategy as regards the banks where it will not advance capital to the banks except as a last resort. Is this proving damaging to the economy? Will the Government be coming back to the Oireachtas with legislative proposals should it be necessary to put State capital into the banks? It was indicated during the budget that such a possibility was under consideration?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is legislation promised in this area?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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A Cheann Comhairle, on the same matter, when will the PricewaterhouseCoopers report on the examination of the banks' capital position be received? The Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, promised he would be advising the House on this matter shortly.
Is it proposed to introduce amending legislation for the Central Bank Acts with a view to restoring control formally in the Governor of the Central Bank as opposed to the Financial Regulator who has not been very successful?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I am loth to say that no new legislation will ever be introduced by the Department of Finance. I take Deputy Bruton's point on the issue of access to capital and credit for small and medium sized enterprises. I urge the banks to facilitate this with the available funding from the European Investment Bank. Both I and the Minister for Finance have several engagements with the banks. The Minister will be meeting them once more on this issue. At this time, it is not the Government's intention to move towards capitalisation. The Deputy will be aware of the interaction between the Central Bank, the Financial Regulator and the financial institutions. At this time we do not feel it is an appropriate mechanism. However, it is equally important to say that this matter is constantly under review and is discussed by all members of Cabinet.
I do not have an exact date for the PricewaterhouseCoopers report but I will ask the Minister to liaise directly with the Deputy.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I asked the Taoiseach yesterday about the Bill providing for the removal of the medical card from pensioners, and I was puzzled by the reply he gave me. He said: "That matter has not yet come before the Government, but it will before Christmas". I ask the Tánaiste if the Government——
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Will be there at Christmas.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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What does it mean? Does it mean the Government has not in fact approved——
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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——or made a decision to bring in a Bill which would remove the medical card from pensioners? Have the heads of a Bill been approved? When is it intended to introduce the Bill to the House? Will the Tánaiste give an assurance to the House that no attempt will be made by the Government to bring in the Bill in the late hours——
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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——of the final days before Christmas and have it rushed through and guillotined in the hope that people will not take sufficient notice?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Will she confirm to the House that until such legislation is passed and enacted, all over 70s have a legal entitlement to hold a medical card and the HSE does not have any legal power to take the medical card from them or commence any process of means testing which would anticipate the passage of the legislation?
My other question concerns legislation that was promised by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in July of this year. At that time the European Court of Justice made a decision on the way in which Ireland is operating environmental impact assessments. It made the decision in the context of a case that was taken about a wind farm in Derrybrien, County Galway. Following the decision, the Minister stated there was what he called a lacuna in Irish planning legislation, which he had identified before entering Government, and that he intended to bring in legislation to deal with it. I have been looking through the Government legislation programme and I cannot find any reference to a lacuna.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is le cúnamh Dé.
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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There are empty spaces in people's heads as well.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Ask Deputy Higgins — he might know.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The problem originated with a development which caused a bog to move and a large amount of water to move into the space left. Thus, we are dealing with both a physical lacuna and a legislative lacuna.
Mary HanafinEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Where is the legislation? Can the Tánaiste identify where it is in the legislative programme or what has happened to it? Can we have any information on it? The serious point is that there are a number of developments which could be legally challenged on the same basis as the Derrybrien wind farm. I would like to know what is happening with the legislation.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Tánaiste to fill the lacuna.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Tánaiste should not forget the first question.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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She should try not to get bogged down in it.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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There are no legislative proposals on lacunae. I do not know whether lacunae would deal with lagoons, because that is what one would actually have if a space was filled with water.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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They just sound the same.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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There is also a Disney song about lacunae.
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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That is where the politics come from.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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In deference to Deputies' ears, I will not start it.
Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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The Tánaiste is all right. Finian will play behind her.
Michael RingWillie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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He is playing it on the guitar.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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You would not know what you would be playing now though.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure Deputy Ring would hum anyway.
The Minister is evaluating that judgment. He is introducing planning legislation but I cannot say for definite——
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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——whether provisions to deal with this issue will be included in the new legislation.
The heads of the new Bill from the Department of Health and Children have been approved and the Bill will be published by the end of the month. If we can move on with our business I am sure we will be able to provide adequate time for discussion of the legislation. For the purpose of clarity, the Deputy is right in saying the legal entitlement for over 70s remains until such time as the law is changed.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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In light of the ongoing problems faced by small rural Protestant secondary schools as a result of the budget, when will the education Ireland Bill be introduced to the House so that we can have a full discussion on it?
Second, when will the sale of alcohol Bill be introduced? Last but by no means least, the industrial development Bill requires urgent discussion in the House in light of all the jobs that are being lost and the trauma that people are going through.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The expected publication date of the education Ireland Bill is 2009. The expected dates for the other Bills mentioned by the Deputy are also next year.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Yesterday the Taoiseach gave me information on the management companies Bill. After a gestation period of about three years, we finally got a decision yesterday from the Taoiseach that rather than three Bills we would have one Bill to deal with this issue. Can the Tánaiste indicate which of the three Ministers involved will be responsible for producing the Bill? Given the urgency of the situation on the ground, of which I am sure the Tánaiste is aware — perhaps not in Donegal but certainly between Donegal and Dublin, and nearly everywhere else — with management companies preying on householders, could she give some indication of when the Bill will be taken and which Minister will be sponsoring?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Each Department, including my own, is preparing or has prepared heads of legislation.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Well, I have a fair idea——
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Taoiseach said yesterday that a decision was made.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should let the Tánaiste answer.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Taoiseach told us yesterday a decision was made that there would be one Bill.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We had better hear what the Tánaiste has to say first.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It is a process.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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This has been going on for three years.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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There are three Departments involved and each is using its expertise to prepare the heads of a Bill. The Attorney General will then take those on board and create a Bill which we hope to have with Government as quickly as possible.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Is there any indication of when that might happen? We have been pursuing this, and the Government has been supportive of the idea, for the last three years——
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Who is the responsible Minister?
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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——but we have not made any progress except that heads of Bills are still being prepared.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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There has been considerable progress and we expect, now that the decision has been made, that the Attorney General will deal with this and turn it around as quickly as possible.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is what one would call a case of le cúnamh Dé.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The decision not to proceed with the HPV vaccination programme is undoubtedly very serious. However, we learned yesterday that the HSE has confirmed that the diabetic retinopathy screening programme that was scheduled to commence this year will not now proceed because of so-called resource constraints.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin will have to ask a question that is in order or find another way of raising the matter.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This is relevant, a Cheann Comhairle. Please——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should raise it when it is in order.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The consequence of this is that a significant number of the some 200,000 diabetics in this country will run the risk of blindness.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does Deputy Ó Caoláin wish to raise a matter that is in order?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Tánaiste accept, as has already been accepted with regard to the HPV vaccine, that this is a matter of sufficient import to allow for statements in the House by the Minister for Health and Children and by each of the spokespersons on health and children?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not in order.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking whether the Tánaiste, who has the Minister at her side, will indicate a willingness to allow for statements——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is a matter for the Whips.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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——on this very serious matter in the House, either today or in the coming week.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I assume that is a matter for the Whips.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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There is no legislation promised and all these matters are for the Whips.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Whip to take note——
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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——that this is of such importance that it merits address in this House.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot go on with that now. The Deputy has made his point.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, I question the idea that the Whips are responsible for everything. Under Standing Order 26(2), only one person is responsible for ordering the business of the House, and that is the Taoiseach. If he gives the Whip the authority he has under that standing order to move on an issue, we can move on it. There is no use saying the Whips are responsible unless the responsibility is given to the Chief Whip to do so.
Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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In light of the criminality and lawlessness that is gripping parts of this country and the Minister's lack of leadership on it, would the Minister implement the much vaunted zero tolerance to put a stop to this? Will he also end the revolving door regime in our prisons where 350 prisoners are to be released before Christmas? In doing so perhaps the Tánaiste would consider re-opening Spike Island.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy will have to ask that question when it is in order. That is not in order, as the Deputy well knows.
Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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There is no order; that is the problem. The Minister is providing no leadership.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Yesterday the Government decided not to reverse the decision on cervical cancer vaccination to save the lives of women in the future. This morning Professor Harald zur Hausen, who won the Nobel prize for this work, made it very clear——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I cannot discuss that matter unless it is in order.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle has been very understanding and I do not want to abuse his position. Many arguments were made here based on misinformation and Professor zur Hausen has added his weight and made it very clear that vaccination is superior to screening in the prevention of cancer and will save lives.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not in order.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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The Government is wiser than a Nobel laureate, the Health Information and Quality Authority and the National Drugs Advisory Board. Is there any point having health information Bills if the Government ignores the people it appoints to advise it for the sake of a miserable €10 million?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That was on Private Members' business last night.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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On Monday Mr. Justice Iarfhlaith O'Neill in the High Court struck down part of the legislation concerning the redress board. When does the Government intend to bring in amending legislation to the redress board legislation which has been passed so that 18-21 year olds who were abused in institutional care can come before the redress board?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The matter is still being addressed by the Attorney General and the Government will be advised and make a decision in due course.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Tánaiste for that information. Can I take it from her reply that the Government intends to appeal this matter to the Supreme Court?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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No, he cannot.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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There are two choices. Either amending legislation is introduced to provide some justice to those 18-21 year olds abused in our system or the judgment is appealed to the Supreme Court.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is straying beyond the rules.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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When does the Government and the Minister for Education and Science intend to come to the House and clearly state their response to Mr. Justice O'Neill's judgement?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I suggest Deputy Brian Hayes put down a parliamentary question on that as soon as possible. If he puts down a question today it will be answered next Tuesday.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Does the Government intend to amend the Education Act 1998 which, inter alia, requires the Minister for Education and Science to agree a budget with the schools authorities before the commencement of the academic year? The budget passed on 14 October unilaterally cuts an additional grant for this academic year for minority schools in this country and €2.8 million was unilaterally removed from the budget without prior consultation and in breach of the law. When will the 1998 Act be amended?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I am not aware of legislation being promised in this area but will ask the Minister to reply directly to the Deputy.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Given the number of pipe bombs being discovered in the towns and cities of this country, is there any intention to bring the explosives Bill to the House with some kind of urgency to deal with them in a factored distribution?
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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One was detonated last night.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It was a partial detonation but there could be more. On the concerns expressed by people about access to health and personal services, there is a Bill to clarify and update eligibility to health and social services. Could the Tánaiste indicate if she intends to bring in that Bill? The legislation to give effect to certain provisions of the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime is promised. At a recent discussion in the European Parliament——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should not mention it now.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I know I should not but I think the Ceann Comhairle would like to hear it.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will talk to you later about it.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The head of Europol gave appalling information to the effect that Europol relies on information gleaned from journalists because of insufficient procedures being put in place by the member state governments.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will allow the Tánaiste to answer Deputy Durkan's three questions on the legislative measures.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Does the Tánaiste have answers to all those questions? We read a long list of legislation here at the opening of every session and I do not know whether the Government ever intends to bring some of this legislation into the House. If it is not the intention to bring it in, why put it on the legislative programme?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Durkan cannot be faulted for not trying to find out.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I will not rise to the other answer. A draft memo on the legislation for the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime has been circulated to Departments. The other two pieces of legislation will be introduced in 2009.
Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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Does the Government intend to ratify the convention on the rights of all migrant workers and their families? I ask because in its absence children of people who have been granted residency are being forced by the Department of Education and Science to apply on a case by case basis for their rights to third level education and grants. Although the Department has established that as a category they are entitled, each case is individually pursued through the equality section of the Department.
This is a fundamental rights matter. Does the Government ever intend to ratify the convention on the rights of all migrant workers and their families? If so, when does it propose to do so? Has this issue been requested of the Government in its meeting with the social partners?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I will have to return to the Deputy.
David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Following on Deputy Durkan's points on legislation, the adoption Bill was promised four years ago, the animal health Bill five years ago and the Curragh of Kildare Bill four years ago. What is delaying them? When will we see these three Bills?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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We are anxious to bring the adoption Bill in quickly and it will be available shortly. Consultation has taken place on the animal health Bill and there must be further consultation with the partners.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Smith, will bring it to the House as soon as possible.
David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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To what partners does the Tánaiste refer on the animal welfare Bill?
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I put all this out to consultation with the IFA, ICMSA, ICOS and everybody who had an involvement and there was a discussion. All that has come back, it has been evaluated and heads of a Bill will have to be put together. It is considerable legislation and will take some time to be brought to finality.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste is correct. It takes a long time.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Curragh of Kildare Bill will be introduced late next year.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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It has been the same answer for ten years.
Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy need no longer ask the questions if he knows the answers.