Dáil debates

Tuesday, 11 November 2008

2:30 pm

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is proposed to take No. 2, Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2008 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. and business shall be interrupted not later than 10 p.m. Private Members' business shall be No. 40, motion re cervical cancer vaccination programme.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There is one proposition to put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed to?

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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No. The Labour Party is opposed to the Second Reading of the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2008 on two counts. First, the time allowed for the debate is completely inadequate, with a guillotine tomorrow evening. Second, and more importantly, in view of the severity of the cuts contained in the Bill and the extent to which these cuts target the unemployed, children, the poor and people with disabilities, the Labour Party is opposed to the Second Reading of the Bill.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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At the Whips' meeting, the Fine Gael Whip proposed that the Bill should not be guillotined.

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Labour Party made the same proposal.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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However, a guillotine is proposed for 10 p.m. tomorrow. We can either have a vote now or tomorrow. I am opposed to the taking of this Bill by way of guillotine. It contains many changes to the social welfare regime on which all Members will wish to contribute. I am opposed to the Second Reading on the basis of the proposed guillotine.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I join with colleagues in opposing the proposition to guillotine the Second Stage debate. While it is not referred to in today's Order Paper, it has been signalled that we will face a guillotine. Members will not have the opportunity fully to participate in the address of this legislation. Therefore, there is no option for the Opposition but to oppose the proposal.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with the late sitting be agreed to."

The Dail Divided:

For the motion: 70 (Dermot Ahern, Michael Ahern, Noel Ahern, Barry Andrews, Seán Ardagh, Bobby Aylward, Niall Blaney, Áine Brady, Cyprian Brady, Johnny Brady, John Browne, Thomas Byrne, Dara Calleary, Pat Carey, Niall Collins, Margaret Conlon, Seán Connick, Brian Cowen, John Cregan, Ciarán Cuffe, John Curran, Noel Dempsey, Jimmy Devins, Timmy Dooley, Frank Fahey, Michael Finneran, Michael Fitzpatrick, Seán Fleming, Pat Gallagher, Paul Gogarty, John Gormley, Noel Grealish, Mary Hanafin, Mary Harney, Seán Haughey, Jackie Healy-Rae, Máire Hoctor, Peter Kelly, Brendan Kenneally, Michael Kennedy, Tony Killeen, Séamus Kirk, Michael Kitt, Tom Kitt, Conor Lenihan, Michael Lowry, Jim McDaid, Michael McGrath, John McGuinness, Micheál Martin, John Moloney, Michael Mulcahy, Seán Ó Fearghaíl, Darragh O'Brien, Charlie O'Connor, Willie O'Dea, Noel O'Flynn, Rory O'Hanlon, Batt O'Keeffe, Ned O'Keeffe, Mary O'Rourke, Christy O'Sullivan, Seán Power, Eamon Ryan, Trevor Sargent, Eamon Scanlon, Noel Treacy, Mary Wallace, Mary White, Michael Woods)

Against the motion: 59 (James Bannon, Seán Barrett, Pat Breen, Tommy Broughan, Richard Bruton, Ulick Burke, Joan Burton, Catherine Byrne, Joe Carey, Deirdre Clune, Joe Costello, Simon Coveney, Seymour Crawford, Michael Creed, Michael D'Arcy, John Deasy, Jimmy Deenihan, Andrew Doyle, Olwyn Enright, Frank Feighan, Terence Flanagan, Eamon Gilmore, Brian Hayes, Tom Hayes, Michael D Higgins, Phil Hogan, Paul Kehoe, Enda Kenny, Pádraic McCormack, Finian McGrath, Joe McHugh, Liz McManus, Olivia Mitchell, Denis Naughten, Dan Neville, Michael Noonan, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Kieran O'Donnell, Fergus O'Dowd, Jim O'Keeffe, Brian O'Shea, Jan O'Sullivan, Willie Penrose, John Perry, Ruairi Quinn, Pat Rabbitte, James Reilly, Michael Ring, Alan Shatter, P J Sheehan, Seán Sherlock, Róisín Shortall, Emmet Stagg, David Stanton, Billy Timmins, Joanna Tuffy, Mary Upton, Leo Varadkar, Jack Wall)

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Question declared carried.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I refer to the Taoiseach's comment on legislation dealing with covert surveillance. The Taoiseach told the House the heads of the covert surveillance Bill will be discussed by the Cabinet next week. Will the Taoiseach indicate when the Bill will be published? I realise it must be circulated first to various Departments. Does the Taoiseach envisage it will return in the spring for publication?

In the Taoiseach's absence last week the House agreed to hold a 90-minute debate on the cervical cancer vaccination programme. As a result of the situation arising from the murder of Mr. Shane Geoghegan, will the Taoiseach set aside 90 minutes for a debate tomorrow to allow the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to update the House on the Government's position, especially on the provision of assistance to the Garda? Perhaps a series of questions would be in order given the seriousness of the tragic situation that obtains.

5:00 pm

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As I stated during Leaders' Questions, the Cabinet expects the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to bring the proposed covert surveillance Bill to the Cabinet next week. Thereafter, detailed drafting must take place and I cannot indicate to Deputy Kenny at this stage what the timeline will be. Given the previous discussion, we will accord priority to it and ask the Attorney General to work through the issues with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform as quickly as possible. To be fair to the Department, it has historically been very good at bringing forward legislative proposals in a timely fashion, despite the complexity of some of the issues with which it must deal. This is a complex issue and there are public policy matters involved.

I have no problem with holding a debate this week arising from the murder of Mr. Geoghegan and on crime generally. However, I am conscious that a funeral will take place tomorrow. Perhaps the Whips could meet on Thursday to discuss the possibilities. There was an indication that a discussion on the reports of the European Union (Scrutiny) Bill 2001 would be held and perhaps this could be deferred.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It would be helpful if 90 minutes were set aside for this purpose. Deputy John Perry brought to my attention the importance of several of these reports and a debate lasting 90 minutes is not long enough to discuss the Lisbon treaty and related matters. I thank the Taoiseach for his reply and I would be pleased if statements, including questions and answers, could take place during that 90-minute allocation on Thursday.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Some weeks ago I asked the Taoiseach about the promise made by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to introduce legislation to limit spending for candidates in local elections. I suggested there was an opportunity to use the Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2008, which is before the House, to introduce that provision. The Taoiseach subsequently wrote to me indicating that the Government's preferred route for introducing a cap on spending limits in local elections was the Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2008. The Bill is on Committee Stage and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has circulated ministerial amendments, but there is no amendment dealing with spending limits. What are the Government's intentions to place a cap on spending limits for local elections and when will the necessary legislative proposals be brought forward?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Government is deliberating on the detail and the best way to proceed. While it may have been the original intention to incorporate the provision as an amendment to the Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2008, it will not now be incorporated. The matter is subject to continued deliberation. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government will introduce further proposals based on these discussions. The Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2008 is not the means through which it will be done.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That is difficult to understand. This is not a complicated legislative matter and there are precedents related to general and European elections. I do not know the nature of the ongoing discussion, unless the Taoiseach wishes to share it with the House.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We cannot go into that matter on the Order of Business.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The local elections will take place next June and people need to know in advance of the elections if there will be spending limits and what they will be.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is in order to ask about legislation.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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This is about the timing and the presentation of the legislation. The elections are coming, when will we see it?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not mean to be facetious, but we will introduce the legislation before the local elections if we are to have it.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I thank the Taoiseach, but will we have it before people place their post box orders?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am trying to be helpful. We did not introduce such legislation previously for local elections because they are a different type of election. Under the current arrangement for European and general elections, there are spending limits and repayment arrangements. It is not as simple as some people suggest. We do not want a situation to develop where there is an unfair burden on local election candidates. There is a need to work out the detail and examine how it could be done in a way that does not cause as big a problem as the one it seeks to solve.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I join the leaders of the Fine Gael and Labour parties in expressing my outrage and condemnation at the outrageous and tragic murder of Mr. Shane Geoghegan in Limerick in the early hours of Sunday morning. I join in the extension of sympathy to his family and friends. We are in need of sound legislation compliant with the European Convention on Human Rights to enable the Garda and the Director of Public Prosecutions to build solid cases against gangland criminals. Is there any legislation under consideration other than the already flagged covert surveillance Bill to address the scourge that these gangland criminals have visited on many of our major cities and larger population areas?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is there particular legislation about which the Deputy wishes to ask?

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I refer to an unrelated but equally important matter. On the programme for Government, the alleged basis on which the Government operates, given that the three component parts thereof are no longer in situ, with the signal demise of the Progressive Democrats who helped to negotiate it, that none of the three leaders who negotiated the programme — Deputies Bertie Ahern, Mary Harney and Trevor Sargent — is any longer a party leader and that we have a very new and very different situation economically, socially and politically throughout the jurisdiction in these straitened economic circumstances, does the Taoiseach accept that the programme for Government is no longer applicable? What is required is a realistic addressing of the need for a new programme for Government. Will the Taoiseach recognise the need to negotiate a new programme? Will he accept the advice of all parties in the development of such a programme, which would be appropriate to the present situation?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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When drafting legislation we must take cognisance of the constitutional and international obligations and imperatives that apply. The need to give sufficient consideration to such matters is imperative, so that subsequent legislation is not struck down in the courts, where it is not effective because of court challenge or by way of legal argument. The accommodation of these public policy considerations mean that such legislation can take some time to draft.

The programme for Government outlines our priorities quite clearly, and how we must work within responsible public finance provisions in order to achieve those. All commitments in any programme for——

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was other legislation being considered? I understand that time is required in its preparation, but I have asked a simple question. Is legislation other than the covert surveillance Bill, already addressed here today, being considered by the Government in the context of these serious matters?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy can only ask about specific legislation. If he wants to ask a general question, he should table a parliamentary question. I call Deputy Bannon.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Approximately 40 jobs have been lost in Longford-Westmeath——

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Will the Deputy come to a relevant question on the Order of Business?

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Yes, it will be very relevant. These jobs have been lost since Fianna Fáil and Deputy Peter Kelly closed Connolly Barracks.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Has the Government any legislation planned that can counteract the adverse effects of high business costs, as well as the cost of petrol and diesel? These costs are driving people out of business right across the country, especially in the midlands.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is any legislation promised in that area?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That was dealt with in the financial resolutions to the budget.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is a matter for the budget debate.