Dáil debates

Tuesday, 11 November 2008

2:30 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I begin by offering my sympathy and the sympathy of the Fine Gael Party to the family and friends of the late Mr. Shane Geoghegan, who was gunned down at the weekend. I also offer sympathy to his sporting colleagues in Garryowen FC, and to the people of Limerick. I propose to nominate Fine Gael's spokesman on justice, Deputy Charles Flanagan, to represent the party at Mr. Geoghegan's funeral tomorrow.

The murder of Mr. Shane Geoghegan is another example of an attack on this State. It is an attack on democracy and a challenge to our democratic system. The reaction to this killing reminds me of the waves of revulsion and anger that swept the country following other incidents in the past. I refer to the deaths of John Morley, Henry Byrne, Jerry McCabe, Donna Cleary and a number of others who were gunned down in the line of duty or as innocent bystanders. I was a member of the Government when a challenge arose as a result of the murder of Veronica Guerin. I know what that Government decided and did, and I know what the consequences were for the perpetrators of that crime.

I welcome the Taoiseach's meeting with the Garda Commissioner, who brought him up to date on the activities of his members and the situation regarding resources. However, the Government response to this latest atrocity has been too bland and too easy. This is a war which the Taoiseach does not appear to be winning. I have offered assistance from this side of the House on previous occasions and do so again. How does the State propose to respond to the murder of Shane Geoghegan, an outstanding citizen and sportsman of his native city, who was gunned down in a case of mistaken identity following an execution order delivered by an individual or individuals?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I offer my sincere sympathy and that of the Government to the family of Shane Geoghegan and to all his relatives and friends. This was an appalling murder which showed a contempt for the value of human life on a scale that reminds us, as in previous murders, of the wanton killing certain people are prepared to perpetrate in our community. It will be met with the full force of the law, within the law. Quite rightly, significant legislative proposals have been enacted with the support of the House in every effort to provide, at the request of the Garda during the period referred to by the Deputy, whatever powers it deemed fit. That will continue.

In the discussion between the Garda Commissioner, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and myself this morning, the Commissioner confirmed he will continue to lead the Garda in the fight against those who perpetrated such an act, the full rigours of the law and resources available to him will continue to be applied and no stone will be left unturned to bring to justice those who perpetrated this callous crime.

I assure the House that, in every way possible, the Government will provide whatever assistance it can to the Garda and we will rely on the advice and judgment of the Commissioner and his police officers in that effort. The Commissioner is with the investigating team this evening and he will be available to the press to give the operational details of how the Garda will continue to deal with this threat and, specifically, with those who perpetrated this heinous crime. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and I indicated our preparedness to do whatever we can to assist in any way it asks us to in addition to the powers available to it currently. The Garda Commissioner pointed out the powers made available to it enables it to continue the fight against organised crime through the setting up of the organised crime unit, the continuation of Operation Anvil and the provision of all resources necessary to deal with this as a priority in terms of what the Garda does. He has our full support in that effort.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That does not deal with the matter. The Taoiseach said no stone will be left unturned, no lack of resources will apply, there will be no legal restrictions and we will operate within the measure of the law. Everybody supports the Garda Commissioner. The House previously heard comments such as "the sting of a dying wasp" and "a watershed in Irish legal and criminal history" and we had five years of "zero tolerance". This is not a threat, as the Taoiseach said, because it has happened and nothing can bring back Shane Geoghegan. He was murdered, reputedly by somebody from outside on an execution order delivered by an individual or individuals involved in gangland war. This is a war and there is no point talking about threats. These people have no regard for human life, Irish society, the Government or our democracy. Treating them with an easy hand and a bland response is not good enough.

I would like to ask a number of questions about the legislative and operational frameworks the Garda is required to use in following through on the business of bringing criminals to justice and seeing that they go before the courts and, following the decision of the courts, to prison. First, is the Taoiseach happy with Part 7 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006 in so far as it deals with gangs and gangland activities? The legislation contains a serious section dealing with the issue of gangs, membership of gangs, the consequences of membership and so on. Second, is the Taoiseach in a position to send out a clear message to those who commit murder and who are subsequently convicted that the minimum sentence should be at least 20 years?

Third, will he bring before the House, as a matter of urgency, the unfinished work of the previous Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Michael McDowell, dealing with the business of covert surveillance and the use of information obtained by such surveillance as evidence in bringing prosecutions? Prevention is much better than looking for convictions after a serious incident such as this. Fourth, why has the State not provided for a DNA database, when clearly we are at least a decade behind in the use of such technology, which is helpful in bringing criminals to justice?

Fifth, the Taoiseach will be aware of the gross extent of community intimidation where it applies. It is absolutely unfair to expect people to give witness identification at parades where they must face those who may be centrally involved. Why have we not come to a point in Ireland where one-way mirror systems are used, as apply in most other jurisdictions where witnesses do not have to fear intimidation when face to face identification is given? The previous five questions lead to the sixth. If the Taoiseach is not happy, does he see a situation where the Government will have to return to Special Criminal Courts to deal with this activity?

The Fine Gael Party will support the Government in so far as provision of resources, legislative changes and operational moves are concerned, which will see to it that persons who carry out crimes such as this, or who order that such crimes be carried out, are brought before the courts and justice delivered to them through the courts system and that they be implemented fully. A clear message should be sent out to those people. They have no respect for the Taoiseach, his Government, the people of Ireland or for human life. I offer our sympathies to the Geoghegan family. Let this be the end of it. Let us not have any more words about stings of dying wasps or watersheds or zero tolerance. This is a war; win it.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Geoghegan family is dealing with the tragic loss of a partner and son. The House is united in its determination to deal with this matter and it joins in sympathy with the family. The House recognises the nature of the challenge put to the criminal justice system by certain elements in our society and we will continue to fight those people with the full rigours of the law to the greatest extent we possibly can in this democratic society. We are agreed on that and none of us is suggesting that one of us is more determined than the other on that point.

I refer to the questions raised by the Deputy. Section 72 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006 provides, as he said, that a person who participates in, or contributes to, any activity of a criminal organisation is guilty of an offence attracting a maximum penalty of five years. We are satisfied, as is the Garda Commissioner, that he can operate those provisions, as enacted. A question has been raised by the Deputy and Deputies from the area regarding the possible parallel of using the same situation as applied under the Offences Against the State Act in respect of subversive offences in the Special Criminal Court. The courts have already held in case law in cases involving the Offences Against the State Act that the opinion of a chief superintendent is not conclusive and it is up to the court to decide how much weight should be given. In practice the Special Criminal Court has tended to disregard such evidence if the accused denies membership on oath. In other words, the basic point to be made is that, constitutionally, one can not escape the requirement, according to the courts, of corroborative evidence in addition to any belief that a Garda officer, however well respected and professional, may have in respect of his or her opinion of an accused's activities.

Legal advice is that in the case of a trial by jury, allowing evidence of opinion by a chief superintendent that a person is a member of a criminal organisation would amount to a statement without evidence that the accused is guilty would lead to evidence as to the bad character of the accused. This would be so prejudicial that it could not be countered by any direction by the judge to the jury and such a provision would in fact probably be unconstitutional as it would not allow a fair trial. These are the parameters in which we must operate.

We will do all we can to improve the efficacy of this legislation. We will do so working with the Garda Commissioner, at his request, on his advice and in respect of anything that we can do to assist beyond that point. It is important to make the point that we will do whatever is possible in that regard consistent with the Constitution.

On the question of covert surveillance, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform indicated that the heads of the Bill will be brought to Government next week. We will seek, arising out of the approval of the heads of the Bill and as a matter of priority, detailed provisions under the criminal justice legislation.

With regard to the DNA database, €80 million is being provided in next year's Estimates to provide for the forensic laboratory and improved DNA database that would ensue as a result. Legislation in that regard is being prepared as well.

The question of witnesses coming forward in terms of the witness protection programme is ongoing. There have been many advances made in this matter regarding inferences to be drawn on the right to silence. All of these provisions have been enacted in this House. We have also an Act, which has withstood court challenge, on the question of where people have given written statements and subsequently, for whatever reason one can surmise, were not prepared to proceed with giving verbal evidence in court. The ability of the judge to rely on the written statements to secure the conviction has been upheld.

These are important new provisions in criminal justice legislation, enacted in both the 2006 Act and 2007 Act, which have brought results which otherwise would not have perhaps secured convictions without that new legal basis for so doing.

I repeat that the Garda Commissioner has our full support in whatever matters, in terms of operational and legislative requirements, that he considers he may need. He made the point today that he has the armoury of that working and effective legislation behind him, even though that in no way detracts from the immediate requirement of identifying those who perpetrated this murder and bringing them to justice, and he will do so with the full rigours of the law.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I join the Taoiseach and the leader of Fine Gael in offering my sympathy and that of the Labour Party to the family, friends and sporting colleagues of Shane Geoghegan. His death was shocking and tragic and the manner in which it was carried out was disgusting.

It would be tragic if it was a once-off but, unfortunately, it is not. Shane Geoghegan's murder is one of a series of murders that have been carried out in similar circumstances — people who were mistaken, who were not in the right place or whatever. Ms Donna Cleary, Mr. Anthony Campbell and others were killed by these murder gangs.

It seems that we have two problems here. The first is that we have many gun murders. Since 1998 there have been 161 gun murders in this State and only 22 convictions. In other words, there is a one-in-eight chance of being convicted of a gun murder.

When I raised this point previously it has been suggested that it is because it takes a while for these cases to come to court. According to the figures before me, in 2003 there were 20 gun murders and only two convictions and in 2005 there were 23 gun murders and only three convictions.

The reality is the people committing these gun murders are getting away with it for a variety of reasons, including the fear that they instill in communities, in witnesses, in other members of the gang etc. We have a situation today where one can pick up the newspapers and read who was the intended victim of this killing on Saturday night last. One can read the identity of the gang that carried it out, the names of some of the members of the gang, and the whereabouts or a suspected whereabouts of some of them. The public wants to get a sense that these gangs will be smashed, put out of business and got off the stage as far as society is concerned. They are a menace and a threat to people in this country going about their ordinary business.

I will not make a political or a partisan issue out of this. I agree with the Taoiseach that there is unanimity across this House about getting this dealt with, but I found his response to Deputy Kenny somewhat defeatist. We do not want to hear the reasons certain things cannot be done. We need to see, led by Government, which my party will support in this, definitive measures taken that will solve and address this problem.

Previously, the Labour Party put forward suggestions such as the introduction of legislation on electronic surveillance and the putting of the witness protection scheme on a statutory basis. We had suggested making membership of gangs a criminal offence and the Taoiseach mentioned the section of the existing legislation which deals with this, but to my knowledge nobody has been convicted of gang membership. Perhaps the Taoiseach will state when he is responding how many people have been charged with membership of a gang under that legislation and if it is not sufficiently robust to deal with the matter, then perhaps we need to look at it again. There are provisions, for example, in the Offences against the State Act, which require people to account for their movements. To what extent is that being used?

I would like to hear a little more about the outcome of the Taoiseach's discussion today with the Garda Commissioner and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. We need to hear from Government what additional legislative measures are required which will be reasonable and effective in dealing with this problem and what operational measures will be required in terms of the Garda, the Criminal Assets Bureau or the agencies of the State dealing with it. We need to have a sense that at the end of this exercise these gangs will be smashed and an end will be put them, and that we will not see any more of Saturday night's type of murder.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There is nothing defeatist about the approach of the Government to this matter. I am simply pointing out, as we must point out in terms of information to the House, what is achievable within the Constitution and what is not. We must point that out. That is not being defeatist.

Photo of Jim O'KeeffeJim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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He could change the Constitution.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There is nothing being excluded from the consideration of the Government as to what it can do in this situation to deal with this matter. Let me be clear about that.

Photo of John DeasyJohn Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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We deal with this every year.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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This is Leaders' Questions.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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In fairness to Deputies who support the Garda, it is wrong to suggest that the Garda is not having many successes in this area. It is. As we all will be aware, there are many situations which never come into the public domain by reason of the work being done in preventing serious crimes. Hundreds, not tens, of people from that area who have been involved in crime are behind bars since Operation Anvil began. Hundreds of firearms were taken out of the equation as a result of the work of the Garda Síochána. Murder detection rates in the mid-west region compare very favourably to anywhere else. This is despite the fact that we know there is a culture among a small group of people in the area who have a propensity to violence, hatred and gangland activity. In fairness to the people of Limerick who are at the front line, there is a recognition of the increased visibility of gardaí and the effectiveness of the work of the officers there who conduct their efforts against these people. This in no way suggests that anyone is complacent and acknowledges that any incident where a fatality occurs is unacceptable.

A great deal of work is being done as a result of effective professional policing in the emergency response unit and the special resource units available for the region, the excellence of the people who deal with this on an ongoing basis and the number of convictions, perhaps not specifically with regard to section 72 but with regard to criminal offences, successfully prosecuted in the courts and people put behind bars. This continues to happen and I assure the House the Commissioner is determined with regard to this matter and he made the point that this type of activity was one of his priority issues on becoming Garda Commissioner. He has an excellent record in this area.

We have co-ordination between the emergency response unit, regional units, the national centre for criminal investigation and the CAB, in which the Commissioner had experience in the past and has expertise, and the machinery of the law is being brought to bear in every possible way to try to deal with this situation. The House should be assured that in standing here none of us is defeatist about this issue. All of us recognise the threat to our way of life that this activity represents. All of us recognise that this is a priority area for the provision of resources and it will continue to be regardless of the economic situation because we must deal with it. Behind it all is the pernicious drugs industry and trade and every citizen must recognise that anyone involved either as a user, supplier or trafficker contributes to this culture with which we must contend and defeat.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I accept entirely that the Garda Síochána is doing its best and it has the full support of the Labour Party. I acknowledge that it has had some successes and the Taoiseach identified some of them. This is not a uniquely Limerick problem.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Of course not.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Many of these murders have been in other parts of the country. What can be done to increase the level of convictions being achieved? One out of eight convictions for the gun murders we have seen over the past decade is not satisfactory or acceptable. If the perpetrators of this crime can be effectively identified in newspapers this morning why can they not be lifted and put away?

With regard to existing legislation dealing with membership of a criminal gang have any convictions been achieved? To my knowledge there have not. Has anybody been charged under the legislation? If not, why have charges not been brought under the legislation? Does the Government have plans to introduce additional legislative measures before the House to deal with the problem of gang warfare, criminality and murder? Will the Taoiseach provide the House with specific information on what will be done to deal with the problem following his meeting with the Garda Commissioner today?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is important to point out that the number of murders involving firearms in 2007 was 18 and it was 27 the previous year. To date this year there have been 19 deaths by shooting. Homicide offences have reduced by more than half during the third quarter and almost by half year on year. This is not to suggest that the problem is solved but it does suggest that the law enforcement agencies of the State are being successful in many respects.

Apart from investigating crime, to have interdiction before a crime is committed intelligence gathering and the availability of information is required. As with every other crime, people have information about this which could and would be helpful if they were prepared to make it available in a confidential or other basis to the gardaí who are investigating this murder. This is a fact.

In addition to the specialised units and the specific operations geared and targeted towards organised crime figures we also have a continuing emphasis on community policing and the increased visibility of gardaí on the streets to assist in building up a rapport with the community so people will provide whatever information they have however marginal they think——

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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They are afraid to do that.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There are instances where fear has played a part and legislative measures have been taken by this House which have successfully withstood court and legal scrutiny to overcome situations where people were not prepared to give oral evidence on the basis of previous witness statements they had made. This House has responded in ways which were effective.

As to what will happen on the lifting of suspects, I assure the House that every possible effort will be made in the investigation of this heinous crime to follow up any lead, speak to those whom it is felt have knowledge of the issue or who raise suspicion. This morning, the Commissioner assured me and the Minister in so far as he can that the investigative effort will be insistent, widespread and as far as he is concerned will have a successful outcome. This is the determination of everybody involved in the issue.

With regard to further legislative measures, we have the covert surveillance Bill and forthcoming legislation on DNA. On intelligence gathering we rely on the judgment of professionals in this area. This work is ongoing and must be allowed to continue in a way which does not open up to those who are being targeted the opportunity to discover in what way they are being covered and how the surveillance is taking place. We need to find a balance between allowing the Garda Síochána to collect evidence in a way which will withstand legal scrutiny in the courts and, at the same time, get on with policing on a day to day basis so we have community support — as we have in this country thanks be to God — for the gardaí in the work they do on our behalf.

We have armed units, unarmed units, specialised units, increased resources and ring-fenced resources. We have 24 hour surveillance seven days a week of many of these organised figures. Everything possible is being done to see in what way people can be brought to justice for the crimes they commit. What happened is a tragedy as is the fact that we cannot guarantee something similar happening in the future. Unfortunately, this is the society in which we live because of the contempt for life that some in this country have. The law enforcement agencies will be given every assistance. I have confidence in the leadership provided by the Garda Commissioner, senior officers and those on the ground not only in Limerick but in other areas where this phenomenon is prevalent in an effort to deal with the situation.