Jack Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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Question 113: To ask the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the amount of revenue collected from television licences; the amount of revenue lost in respect of unlicensed televisions; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [37126/08]

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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The amount of revenue collected from television licences to date in 2008 is just under €186 million. This revenue is made up of €141 million in respect of direct sales by An Post and €45 million paid by the Department of Social and Family Affairs for the issuing of free lifetime licences. In negotiating the annual target sales to be reached by An Post, my Department factors in a target of a 1% increase in the overall licensee base as a means of reducing the level of evasion. I am not in a position to accurately estimate the number of unlicensed televisions.

The television licence fee forum, which comprises representatives of my Department, An Post, RTE and the Department of Social and Family Affairs, was established in November 2007. It is examining the efficiency of the present television licence fee collection system. Part of its remit is to discuss ways of tackling evasion and to agree a methodology which all parties can agree on in respect of the calculation of evasion. The Broadcasting Bill 2008, when enacted, will allow for the introduction of different classes of licences, which may alleviate some of the reasons for evasion. Some people will not buy a licence if they think they will not get a full year's value out of it. Owners of holiday homes and people who know they will become eligible for a free licence during the year are among those who may decide not to purchase a licence. The loss of revenue that results from people's failure to buy a licence could be resolved with the introduction of partial licences.

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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Does the Minister not consider that it is inadequate to respond by mentioning that a forum was established in 2007? Does he agree it is strange that the extent of evasion has not yet been determined in that context? I would have thought that the forum would have come up with some kind of figure, in relation to the extent of evasion, by now. Of the 260,000 new homes which were built over the last five years, one in five does not have a television licence. That seems to be an indication of the level of evasion that is taking place.

Seán Power (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure the level of evasion is much smaller in County Wicklow.

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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Radio advertisements appear to have dropped the claim that 18,000 inspections are carried out each month. That decision is to be welcomed because nobody believed that was the case. Does the Minister accept it is important to draw on this source of revenue, particularly since it has become evident that broadcasters like RTE and TV3 are experiencing a decrease in advertising levels? Does the Minister intend to introduce licences in respect of computers and mobile devices which are used to access radio and television services, but are not currently liable for licence fees?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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I accept the Deputy's assertion that it is important to ensure we collect all television licence fees which are due. All broadcasters are about to experience a difficult time. I will assist the House by mentioning some figures I have to hand which make it clear that the number of licences being sold has increased recently. In 2007, An Post's number of direct sales increased by 45,300. The number of direct licence sales by An Post this year, to the end of September, stands at 757,795. That figure is 17,200 higher than the figure at the same time in 2007. Deputy McManus mentioned the impact of house construction over recent years. If I remember correctly, it was planned that there would be almost 80,000 house completions in 2007.

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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I referred to the number of houses which were built over the last five years.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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I am speaking specifically about 2007.

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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Okay.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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I have given the figure available to me in respect of additional An Post direct sales in that year. Perhaps the increase can be partly accounted for by the increase in the number of social welfare recipients. Some properties which were purchased are not being lived in. We have to investigate and pursue the extent to which evasion is taking place in that context. That is why the co-ordinating body has been established.

Deputy McManus also raised the secondary issue of the possible extension of the licensing system to computers and mobile handsets. Such devices will have increasing broadcast capability as streaming access becomes more widespread. A difficulty arises when one has to decide at what point one changes one's licensing system in recognition of the evolution that is taking place. One needs to ensure one does not lose much of the revenue one currently receives. I will refer to two interesting studies which have been undertaken in this regard. The UK Government has examined this matter in great detail. It has decided that the point at which such a switchover is justified has not yet been reached. We came to the same conclusion when we were developing the Broadcasting Bill 2008. I was interested to note the projections for the broadcasting area that were outlined in a report on international media developments that was produced by PricewaterhouseCoopers. The report found that the steady evolution of the many-to-many broadcasting environment will turn into increasingly rapid growth over a five-year time horizon. It predicted that new Internet and other broadcasting systems will be used to deliver computer broadcast services. The international analysis to which I refer suggested that the traditional broadcasting format, whereby a small number of broadcasters provide services to a large population, will continue to be the dominant broadcasting mode over the next five years.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Minister's initial response was unclear. Does he accept that if it costs more than €12 million to collect €200 million, the system is fundamentally flawed? Does he intend to continue to link the funding of public service broadcasting with the ownership of televisions?

Does the Minister agree that the system whereby people have to go around the country knocking on people's doors, checking whether there are televisions in bedrooms, is an outdated mode of funding public service broadcasting? RTE has suggested that the level of licence fee evasion is between 15% and 20%. We are all paying for those who evade. Would it not be more effective to introduce a new system, requiring all households to pay a contribution towards the funding of public service broadcasting in Ireland? Such a system would deal with the evasion issue and remove the outdated model that connects the funding of public service broadcasting with television ownership.

Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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It is generally accepted that the level of evasion is approximately 15%. Perhaps the Minister will say whether he thinks that figure is correct. Would he consider abandoning the forum? After existing for well over a year it has not come up with the figure for evasion or the proposal on how to update the licence fee collection. Would the Minister accept that Germany has bitten the bullet and created a licence fee for mobile devices?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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We must be careful as to how such an alternative process on mobile devices or a charge on data communications could have potential adverse effects regarding the development and encouragement of some new mobile technologies. I want us to be an early adopter of many of the new internet technologies. I would be nervous about immediately adopting a charge on them as an alternative to the current licence fee system. While nobody can be happy with the evasion, of which we are aware and which we are trying to reduce, it is still a working model which delivers. This year we are estimating a sum of €232 million.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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How much does it cost to collect that?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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There is a cost attached to that but it is a guaranteed model. When RTE was asked, in the joint Oireachtas committee on this issue in recent years, about its preferred development, it said that despite its statements on the level of evasion it wanted to hold on to the current system because it at least gave certainty on the revenue available to broadcasters.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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That is no reason.