Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It is proposed to take No. 10, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Socialist Republic of Vietnam) Order 2008, back from committee; No. 11, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Exchange of Information relating to tax matters and Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Isle of Man) Order 2008, back from committee; No. 12, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Republic of Macedonia) Order 2008, back from committee; No. 13, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann for a Council Framework Decision on the recognition and supervision of suspended sentences, alternative sanctions and conditional sentences, back from committee; No. 14, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Agreements on Extradition and on Mutual Legal Assistance between the European Union and the United States of America, back from committee; No. 15, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann for a Council Decision establishing a European Police Office (EUROPOL), back from committee; and No. 22, Financial Motions by the Minister for Finance, 2008, motion 15 (resumed).

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 4.45 p.m. today and business shall be interrupted not later than 7.30 p.m; (2) Nos. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 shall be decided without debate; (3) the Dáil shall sit tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and shall adjourn not later than 3 p.m., there shall be no Order of Business, that is, within the meaning of Standing Order 26, and the business to be transacted shall be No. 15a — motion re approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the draft scheme entitled Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Scheme 2008, which shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 3 p.m. and the following arrangements shall apply: the speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; Members may share time; a Minister or Minister of State shall take questions from 1 p.m. until 3 p.m. Private Members' business shall be No. 49, motion re farm waste management scheme, to be taken after the Order of Business and to conclude after three hours, if not previously concluded.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are three proposals to be put to the House today. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 4.45 p.m. today agreed to?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is not agreed. I do not want to agree to anything in the Order of Business until we get clarification from the Tánaiste on behalf of the Government about what amounts to the most stupid, callous own goal ever——

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Vicious.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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——perpetrated by a Government on elderly folk in regard to the medical card issue announced in the budget on Tuesday. There has been nothing but confusion and laying blame from one Minister to another over this matter. Even this very morning from Brussels the Minister for Finance said the Minister for Health and Children would have ample time between now and January to sort out any difficulties that might arise.

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea, said the same thing on "Morning Ireland".

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The difficulty is that the decision made by the Government and announced in the budget has driven a stake through the integrity of older folk in Ireland.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Government has taken away their medical cards.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry, Deputy Kenny.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is more serious than the rules of the House.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please. The difficulty I have is that we are having a budget debate at the present time——

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Government proposed to take away nine tenths of the medical cards granted to people over 70——

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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——who lived in that comfort zone and who have now pointed out all of the anomalies that arise since.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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For instance, in the assessment for their medical cards people's savings, investments or properties that are not mortgaged will now be taken as part of their income and will expose them to the 2% income levy as well.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Shame on you.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Government only charged the banks €500 million when it could have charged a much higher amount and forget this nonsense of taking away people's medical cards.

Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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That is all lies.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny, I must intervene.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I might make another suggestion. What the Tánaiste could do——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny must please allow me to intervene. He will have to respect the Chair.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will make this point and then I will sit down.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny will have to allow the Chair to intervene and say something at this point.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am speaking for all those people over 70 who were granted medical cards that are now being taken away.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny will have to allow me to speak. The Chair is on his feet.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is my last point.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Chair is on his feet. I must ask Deputy Kenny to allow me to speak.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Let him finish.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I make this point. The Government could change the regulations whereby pharmacies would be able to prescribe generic drugs instead of branded drugs and save €150 million and forget this callous proposal.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Before I call Deputy Gilmore I want to make something clear.

Deputies:

Let them listen to their backbenchers.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The medical cards are gone.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Shame on you.

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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A club of 22 will give the Government the same walking papers as Mr. McCreevy was given.

Deputies:

They will give them a standing ovation.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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How about a standing ovation this morning?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Bannon, please. Let us please deal with this calmly. A proposal by the Taoiseach, or the Tánaiste in this case, on how the items of business are to be taken is a technical motion of very narrow scope and the merits and demerits of the item do not arise at this stage.

Deputies:

The Government has put the fear of God into our old people.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is a technical motion of a very narrow scope.

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Government is attacking the elderly.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The merits and demerits of the item do not arise at this stage.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The Government is attacking the old people of this country.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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If under Standing Order 26 the proposal is opposed——

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Members on the Government side of the Houses all clapped when the budget was introduced so they can all take the blame now.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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——the Chair is obliged to permit a brief statement from each party in opposition and from the Tánaiste before I put the question. The proposal is a narrow one.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The Government wishes to blame the one Progressive Democrats member that is left.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The Government abandoned the old people of the country.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny has made a statement on an issue and if Deputy Gilmore wishes to oppose the Order of Business on No. 1 he may do so with a brief statement.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Gilmore, without interruption, please.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for inviting me to oppose the Order of Business this morning.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I allow the Deputy the opportunity to do so. The alternatives are available as well.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I wish to oppose the Order of Business and I will explain my reasoning. I oppose the Order of Business until the Government can remove the anxiety, uncertainty and worry that exists among pensioners and older people across the country, from whom the Government intends to take away the medical card. The Government says it will save €100 million as a result of removing the medical card from pensioners. This means older people throughout the county will be collectively faced with a medical bill in the amount of €100 million next year. Older people are worried about this and about the means test the Government intents to apply——

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Backbenchers are worried.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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——what the Government is looking for, who will get the medical card, who will get the GP card, who will qualify for the subsidy and who will not have a card. This is causing significant concern to people.

In addition to the concern about the loss of the medical card, there is the information Deputy Jan O'Sullivan brought to the attention of the House last night, namely, that the Government is proposing to change the previous, traditional method by which older people were assessed for a medical card before the medical card scheme was introduced. Meanwhile, Fianna Fáil Ministers are running like frightened foxes from a forest fire and leaving this in the hands of the Minister for Health and Children. The Minister for Finance was at it yesterday. The Minister for Defence on the radio this morning——

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Soon they will be blaming Deputy Noel Grealish.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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——said this was all to do with the Minister for Health and Children. I wish to know——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The brief statement from Deputy Gilmore has been made.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I am perfectly in order.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is not in order.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The scheme of medical cards for the over 70s was introduced by legislation.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It was contained in the Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2001 and it can only be removed by legislation. Will the Tánaiste say if the Government has approved the legislation to remove the medical card for the over 70s? When will this legislation be brought to the House? Will the Government do the decent thing, which is to withdraw this measure from the budget and provide some relief and some peace of mind for older people?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Before I call Deputy Ó Caoláin, technically the proposal for a late sitting is to allow the budget debate beyond the time set out, no more and no less. However, I will allow brief statements from the parties commenting on and opposing item No. 1. I must then move on.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I oppose the Order of Business as presented by the Tánaiste because it does not provide an opportunity for the House to hear directly from the Minister for Health and Children and to question her on the detail of her proposal. There is a most callous proposition to take from our elderly citizens in their 70s, 80s and older the medical card that they have enjoyed in recent years. It is absolutely inconsistent and inequitable and shows the absolute confusion at the heart of the delivery of the health system in this State. I call on the Government to withdraw this proposition immediately. Will the Minister for Health and Children come to the House today? Will the Government provide an opportunity for a proper and detailed exchange on the outworking of this proposition? Preferably, will the Government announce the decision not to proceed?

If it is the case that the Minister for Health and Children will not facilitate an opportunity for the House to address this very disturbing matter today, I appeal to the Ceann Comhairle, as a facilitator of debate in this House, to allow for a Private Notice Question to be accepted and for all-party participation in order that we may as quickly as possible get to the kernel of what the Government intends, to clear up the confusion between the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Health and Children on the outworking of the proposal in the coming months and, hopefully, that we can impress some sense on them and have this matter withdrawn. Has the Government, in any way, taken into account the administrative nightmare that this measure will land on the desks of the HSE, which is expected to go through the process of review of each individual's entitlement at a time when there is already a curtailment of frontline staff in the provision of personal social services and health care entitlement?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We must move on.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is absolutely inconsistent and inequitable. I join other voices here in urging the Government to withdraw this measure immediately.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I point out to Deputy Ó Caoláin that there is no provision for parliamentary questions today. The debate is part of the ongoing budget debate.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I hope I will be afforded the same latitude as others in the House, given that this matter is out of order.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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As much rope as the Tánaiste wishes.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to clarify the matter. This is a Government decision.

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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One would not think it, given the body language on that side of the House.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I ask for the indulgence of the House, given that we need clarity on this issue. Of the savings of €100 million, €86 million is for GPs and €30 million is for pharmacists.

Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Those figures do not add up.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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There are 355,000 people over 70 years of age in the country, of which 215,000 have a medical card, having gone through the process of a means test. Those people will continue to have a medical card.

P J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Not at all.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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There are 140,000 people who have a medical card. If Deputy Bannon knows more than I do, he should tell the people of his constituency that when he goes home on Saturday. Let me address the House, please. There are 140,000 who have a medical card without a means test and these are the people to which we refer.

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Every one over 70 years of age has a medical card.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The starting point at which there is a means test per person over 66 years of age is €201.50. That is the starting point.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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That is less than the State old age pension.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is based on net income. As public representatives, all Deputies are acutely aware that ongoing expenses for rent, mortgage, medical costs and so on are taken into consideration prior to making a decision on a means test. All social welfare pension recipients——

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It is important, as legislators, that we give the facts because Deputies are adding to the confusion in this House and I will not stand for that.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste is making up the facts as she goes along.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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All social welfare recipients——

Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Pensioners.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Pensioners will have an entitlement to their medical card——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I remind Members that this is a democratic forum where Members are entitled to make their points, and the Tánaiste is entitled to make her point.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Johnny Brady is very quiet this morning.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is as simple as that. Allow the Tánaiste to make her contribution. In a democratic forum, we must have that.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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She is provoking us.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Tánaiste to proceed.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I will clarify the matter once again. All those who have a means-tested medical card will continue to have that entitlement.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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We know that.

Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Some 52% of people in County Donegal and 32% of people in County Monaghan——

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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A person whose sole income derives from a social welfare pension——

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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What about the Bórd na Móna pension?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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——will continue to be entitled to a medical card.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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If one is getting €5 from Bórd na Móna, one will lose it.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The 140,000 people who are not in that category will be subject to a simplified means test. The HSE will provide a simplified form.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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It is trying to grab people's cards.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The starting point for that means test will be €201.50. All other expenses will be taken into consideration.

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It is all spin.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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As Members of the Oireachtas, we are acutely aware of these issues, as we all fill in forms for our constituents.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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There are nine——

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The first €20,000 of cash savings are exempt.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Nine.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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To be fair to Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, she raised this issue to get some clarity. She mentioned that provision has been made on the basis of automatic entitlement when a person who is over the age of 70, but whose spouse is not yet 70, has applied for a medical card.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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We know about that.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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In such cases, the assessment has been made under a higher net threshold, solely on the basis of the automatic entitlement. As there is no longer an automatic entitlement——

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Shame.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It was cut.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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——this facility, which existed on the basis of that entitlement, is no longer relevant.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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The Tánaiste should stop digging.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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However, it is important to say that those who went through the means testing process will continue to get a medical card.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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If they are getting less than €201.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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No.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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It is as clear as mud.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It is important to clarify that those who have an entitlement under a means test will continue to have that entitlement.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Spin.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I will conclude by answering the half-relevant question that was asked about legislation.

Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste should bring her response back to the typist.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Bring back Deputy Michael Woods, all is forgiven.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The legislative framework in which this will be dealt with will be facilitated through the social welfare Bill.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am putting the question.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Some 125,000 people over the age of 70 will not have a medical card. That is the reality.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste has misled the Dáil.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 10 to 15, inclusive, namely, motions re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of double taxation relief orders, exchange of information relating to tax matters, a Council framework decision, agreements on extradition and a Council decision establishing a European police office, Europol, agreed?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will not agree to this until I get clarification from the Tánaiste on the Government's decision on medical cards for over 70s. The Tánaiste said that she wished to clarify Deputy O'Sullivan's comments on means testing and the categories of people who were to have their cards withdrawn. Seventy-four Members of the Government parties have just voted to take away these medical cards by refusing to reverse——

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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We voted to sit until 7.30 p.m. tonight.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will remind them of that continuously.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Kenny to be brief.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I accept the Tánaiste is here to give clarification on this matter. I want her to withdraw her statement that the automatic entitlement has ended. It has not. She said it was a Government decision to introduce it and that the automatic entitlement is gone, but it is not gone. I want her to clarify that and withdraw her comment to that effect.

I want to ask a question about EC Regulation 1408/71, which was mentioned in a response to a question tabled by Deputy Jim O'Keeffe on 24 June 2008. The Deputy asked whether EU nationals over 70 living in this country are entitled to health benefits and medical cards. He was told that such persons receive a medical card as evidence of their entitlement. Is it now the position that EU citizens over 70 living in Ireland are automatically entitled to an Irish medical card? Will we be in a situation where the only people under the Government's proposal not to undertake a means test are EU citizens over 70 living in this country? The Government parties have reduced elderly Irish citizens to economic statistics rather than people. They have offended them, hurt their integrity and driven a stake through what they did for this country.

The Government must reverse that decision and I have provided the answer. The health (miscellaneous) Bill can change the regulations that will allow for pharmacists to prescribe generic drugs instead of branded drugs. That will bring in €150 million and save the blushes of Fianna Fáil, the Green Party, the Progressive Democrats and the Independents. The Government can restore some sense of credibility and peace of mind to elderly people who are frightened about the letters they will receive from the Minister for Health and Children in the next fortnight.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gilmore, briefly.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Where are the Greens now?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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On behalf of the Labour Party I too oppose No. 2 and I support Deputy Kenny in the reasons he has given. The Government is now desperately trying to spin and explain its way out of the decision it made to take away the medical card from old age pensioners. Nine out of every ten people over 70 who currently have an automatic medical card once will lose it. This is a fact. All of the things they are talking about putting into place is being done to recover €100 million.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Whether Members of this House think they voted for it or against it a couple of minutes ago, it is manifestly clear that every Member of this House will have to vote on whether they want to take the medical card from pensioners.

Máire Hoctor (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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That is not true.

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is true.

Máire Hoctor (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should read the facts.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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There is a legal entitlement under the Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2001 for people over 70 to hold a medical card automatically. The Government will have to introduce legislation to change that. I was interested to hear the Tánaiste say that this task will now be landed in the hands of the Minister for Social and Family Affairs.

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Pass it to the women.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I sympathise with any Minister who will go down in history as the Minister who took the medical card from the pensioners.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)
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——playing on the fears of the elderly.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Empty vessels make the most noise.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must call Deputy Ó Caoláin now. I remind Deputy Gilmore that a brief statement is all that is allowed.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Where is Deputy Gogarty now?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow Deputy Gilmore to finish without interruption.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I say to Members on the benches on my right, that it is very difficult to be impartial between the dancer and the dance but I am trying and Members must allow Deputy Gilmore to finish. I must move on to Deputy Ó Caoláin. I remind Deputy Gilmore a brief statement is all that is allowed.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They put the old people on bicycles and took the medical card off them.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Gilmore to proceed and bring this to finality because he is only allowed a brief statement and I must call Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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We can bring all of this to finality very easily if the Government——

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The three Marys are in trouble.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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——does what it will be eventually forced to do which is to back off this proposal. I invite the Tánaiste to clarify the matter. The Minister for Finance said this morning that the proposal is intended to proceed regardless. The Government will take the medical card off pensioners and not only take the medical card off them but halve the income limits for the means test that will be applied to them if they have to apply for it.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Ó Caoláin for a brief statement. I presume his is opposing item No. 2.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State with responsibility for older people is texting on her mobile phone. She has no interest in older people. She should resign.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, Deputy Kehoe.

Máire Hoctor (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I know rubbish when I hear it.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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She should resign.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In joining colleagues in opposition to the second proposed grouping of propositions on the Order of Business, having been asked over yesterday and last night by several people who have telephoned me, I wish to raise an issue that has not been addressed or highlighted here this morning or heretofore. I refer to a large number of those people who currently hold the over-70s entitlement to medical cards whose medical cards expire at the end of this month or at the end of November. What is the situation with regard to the signalled end of this scheme if the Government parties and their Independent supporters continueto vote as they have already done this morning? What is the position with regard to the automatic renewal of those medical cards that will expire between now and the change the Government appears to be hell bent on bringing in? Shame on the Government for it? Will these medical cards be renewed? The entitlement is there, at least until such time as the Government applies its guillotine on that entitlement. It needs to be noted by hospitals, by general practitioners, by those providing the prescription needs of these people, that on the expiry of those cards and until such time as the decision is finally taken — if that is to happen and God forbid it does — these people's entitlement continues irrespective of whether the card has expired and no new card has issued. Will the Tánaiste clarify that point and will she at least give some temporary respite to those who fear that they will not get a renewed card over the intervening period?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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On the issue of the Leader of the Opposition——

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is the worst of letting the civil servants write the budget.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Tánaiste without interruption, please.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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As of 1 January next year, there will be a new methodology. The question I referred to was raised by Deputy Jan O'Sullivan in the context of a methodology in which an entitlement was made available. That methodology will no longer be relevant in due course on the basis that there will be no automatic entitlement to a medical card for those over 70. That is the way in which I referred to the issue raised by Deputy O' Sullivan yesterday evening——

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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On a point of order. The Tánaiste is incorrect.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is the methodology which is no longer relevant——

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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On a point of order.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Is the Ceann Comhairle deaf?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I can appreciate that people——

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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A point of order.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Who is calling for a point of order? I will allow Deputy Shortall on a point of order.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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The Tánaiste is wrong——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a point of order.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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The increases to the means test for over-70s were introduced in 1999——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a point of order.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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——as an initiative under the year of the elderly.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a point of order.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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What the Tánaiste is saying is incorrect. The increases to the means test for over 70s were introduced in 1999 as an initiative under the year of the elderly so what the Tánaiste is saying in incorrect.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a point of order. The Tánaiste may proceed.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I can appreciate——

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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It is nothing to do with the automatic entitlement.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order.

Under the Standing Orders of the House the Tánaiste is expected to give the House valid information. She said five minutes ago——

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The methodology.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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——that the automatic entitlement is no longer there. It is there.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It will be no longer available.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a point of order, Deputy Kenny.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste has not clarified it and she has misled the Dáil.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I did clarify it.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a point of order either, Deputy Kenny.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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She has added further fears to the older people.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a point of order. I ask Deputy Kenny to allow the Tánaiste to finish.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I can appreciate——

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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On a point of order.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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No, it is not a point of order. This is a democratic forum and the Deputy should please allow the Tánaiste to finish.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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——that as politicians people can have political banter and they can say whatever they have to say——

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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It is not banter; this is beyond banter.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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However, those of us on this side of the House should at least be afforded the opportunity to give clarification and equally that we rise——

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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——above the muddying of the waters that is currently taking place in this House and which is unfair to many people who are probably watching us on TG4 this morning.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It is important to deal with the facts. The leader of the Labour Party indicated he had an issue——

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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On a point of order.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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——on fairness and equity. I put it to him that on the basis of fairness and equity, on what basis does he see fairness and equity in the case where someone is getting a medical card and whose GP is getting €161 for the service and others——

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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It was the Tánaiste's Government who introduced in the scheme.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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——who are outside the scheme are getting €640. Where is the fairness and equity in that?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Leader of the Opposition would equally be of the view that he needs to see fairness and equity in the way in which scarce resources are allocated. Can he justify a change by his members' on the basis that a Government decision to offer medical cards to well-off pensioners, to senior civil servants, High Court judges, property tycoons, Ministers of State and hospital consultants has been condemned? Let the Opposition tell me where there is fairness and equity in that.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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On a point of order.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does Deputy Gilmore have a genuine point of order? I call Deputy Gilmore.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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The Government took it away. I cannot help if the Government members are so incompetent they cannot count and do not know how to do deals. I will stand for the elderly and make sure they get a proper deal.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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If Deputy Gilmore has a point of order.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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May I say——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Reilly may not. Deputy Gilmore on a point or order.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Kenny has asked me to sort this out. As a new Deputy, I do not understand how the Government can do this. I have been asked to sort it out and I will sort it out.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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If this continues the House cannot continue.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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That money kept Deputy Reilly in business.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Kelleher has given Deputy Reilly a standing ovation.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gilmore may proceed.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Government is robbing the elderly.

Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Government is bouncing the cheque it wrote to the elderly.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Perhaps some do not understand, although I am sure they do, that this is a democratic forum where people are entitled to make their points of view known. We must operate within Standing Orders. I am doing my best. If this continues, I will have to suspend the House, unfortunately.

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Let the Government suspend the scheme and we will all be happy.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gilmore has long-standing experience and I hope his is a point or order and not a point of provocation.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I have also been standing here a long time trying to make this point. It is a point of order. The issue the Labour Party has raised has to do with the income limits for the medical card means test. In addition to taking the medical card from pensioners——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a point of order.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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It is.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I want to talk. Will the Ceann Comhairle please hear me out? We raised the issue of the income limits for the means test. In reply, the Tánaiste has told the House the income limits are directly related to the medical card scheme for the free medical card for the over 70s. That is not the case.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a point of order. I have already made that quite clear.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I have here the extract——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have ruled it out of order.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Ceann Comhairle is not hearing me.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am hearing the Deputy.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I have here the extract from the budget speech by former Minister for Finance, Mr. Charlie McCreevy, in 1999, two years before the free medical cards came in, in which he said the income guidelines used to establish medical card eligibility for persons aged 70 and over would be doubled over the next three years, beginning with an increase of one third in the coming year. That is being reduced. In addition to taking the automatic medical card, the Government is reversing what Mr. McCreevy did in 1999 and cutting the income guideline in half.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a point of order.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Not only is the Government removing the medical card, it will also make it more difficult for them to get a medical card.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a point of order.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On a point of order——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am putting the question.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Ceann Comhairle is out of order——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must now ask if the proposal for the sitting tomorrow is agreed. Agreed.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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No, it is not.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle moved very fast there, like a good Kerry forward.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I was not fast enough.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste, speaking on behalf of the Government this morning, only added to the confusion about medical cards.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I did not add to the confusion.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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She did not answer the question about European citizens. We know that the British Government pays €450 million, as outlined to Deputy Ring, for their citizens living here who have Irish medical cards but the Tánaiste did not refer to the Europeans.

The former Minister for Finance, Mr. Charlie McCreevy, introduced this scheme and said that he was doing so to repay the people who built this country and maintained it in hard times. The Government is now taking away that automatic entitlement. The Government offends elderly people with what it has done here. It will put the decision of the late Mr. Ernest Blythe into the shade when it is implemented.

The confusion that has arisen from the Tánaiste's statement in the House and from the Minister for Finance's statement in Brussels this morning means that Deputies will be going around the country unable to answer questions about this decision. The Minister for Health and Children should be given some time in the Dáil today to clear up the confusion relating to the Government's intention to implement the decision. We can then decide the battleground upon which Deputies will have to vote on this measure — they will have to vote on this, as Deputy Gilmore pointed out.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny has made his point.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is important to note that Deputies Finian McGrath and Jackie Healy-Rae were among the 73 Deputies who voted "Yes" in the last vote, as a precursor to taking away medical cards from elderly people. That should not be forgotten in their constituencies.

I suggest, in view of this appalling decision by the Government, that we adjust our business today so that the Minister for Health and Children can take charge of this issue. It is clear that the Tánaiste does not have the answers to all the questions that were raised, nor does the Minister for Finance.

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister, Deputy Willie O'Dea, does not have the answers either.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the Minister for Health and Children, who has been blamed by the Minister for Finance and most other Fianna Fáil Deputies in the corridors of this House——

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is right. The Minister, Deputy O'Dea, was at it this morning.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They have decided to blame the Minister, Deputy Mary Harney, for this when clearly it is another part of the Lenihan levy and a consequence of a Government that does not know what it is at.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We must move on. The Deputy has made his statement.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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People are talking about Deputy Kenny in the corridors too. They were talking about him over breakfast this morning.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I suggest, with the Tánaiste's agreement, that we adjust the Order of Business for today and give the Minister for Health and Children half an hour or more to clear up any confusion that exists on the Government's intention to go ahead with this decision.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am glad to see that the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Finneran, is here and is wide awake for this very important debate.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let us leave that now. The Deputy has made his point.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I know the Deputy was awake yesterday. It was only a long blink he was having. I put that suggestion to the Tánaiste.

Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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It would take longer than half an hour to explain things to those on Deputy Kenny's side of the House.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Regarding No. 3, the arrangements for a limited debate tomorrow are not to the satisfaction of the Labour Party. I met officials of the Department of Finance last night who told me the basis of the calculation of the levy is the cost of the increase in the national debt over ten years of the State guarantee to the banks. That is €1 billion divided by ten, which is €100 million per year, to be paid over two years, in two instalments of €50 million. Interestingly, that is the same cost as that which old age pensioners are paying in this budget. The banks will claim €100 million back from their customers but the old age pensioners will not be able to claim their money back from anybody.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We are not accepting this arrangement.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy has made her point.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We have, once again, a cosy back-door deal for the bankers and the richest people in Irish society.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy has made her point.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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A cut-price guarantee scheme will be brought into this House tomorrow and that is a disgrace. There is no equity for the Irish taxpayer. It is €100 million per year for ten years——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We can talk about that tomorrow.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is a disgrace, a steal and a give-away.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will have a debate on that tomorrow. We must move on.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The proposal for tomorrow's business states: "A Minister or Minister of State may reply to questions." Fortunately, I share the same constituency as the distinguished Minister for Finance and I have had to cancel attendance at constituency functions tomorrow but the Minister will go to those functions. I want an assurance from the Government, in the context of the most expensive deal that the Irish taxpayer has ever undertaken, that the Minister for Finance will be in this House to answer our questions.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I do not want some cack-handed Minister for State who has not even read the——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy cannot have a second bite of the cherry. She has had her run.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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With regard to the proposed arrangements for tomorrow, I find the last point made by Deputy Burton very disturbing. That there is any prospect of the Minister for Finance not being here for the entirety of the scheduled debate on the measures relating to the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Bill, just recently past, is absolutely unacceptable. The idea that the Minister for Finance might be absent, carrying out the function and responsibility of another Minister in Government is absolutely insulting to this House and raises a question as to his sincerity and the Government's real intent regarding the measures involved in the proposals to be put before us as Members of this Dáil.

As the Tánaiste did not reply to the points I made earlier regarding the entitlement of over 70s to medical cards that will expire between now and 1 January, the thought occurred to me to describe this budget as a programme for emigration with the Minister for Finance at the departure gates taking further moneys out of the pockets of those given the privilege to leave.

Máire Hoctor (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin was on Wall Street last week.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Earlier Deputy Kenny made the point that EU nationals of other countries living here who are over 70 and in all age groups will continue to enjoy automatic access to a full medical card.

Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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They do not.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What are we recommending here, that all Irish over 70s should move to other member states where they will equally then be entitled to a full medical card?

Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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It is untrue. The Deputy is being racist.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin has had his say.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The idea that this is a programme for emigration is particular and specific to those over 70 years of age.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin has had his run. The Tánaiste to respond on No. 3.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Maybe we will start by offering Jackie his one-way flight.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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No EU citizen may have an entitlement which is not afforded to an Irish citizen.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is not the case.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The British Government pays €450 million a year to them.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let the Tánaiste finish.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I was the one who negotiated the new regulation 1408 during our Presidency.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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How many Commissioners were there at the time?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte will never be one so get on with it.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste could be gone sooner than she thinks.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste is getting nasty.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Tánaiste to speak. The Tánaiste listened.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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I sincerely hope——

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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We sincerely hope the Government will reverse the decision taken.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Tánaiste was asked some questions and Deputy Kehoe should allow her to answer them.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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——that the people of this country and those outside of this nation do not see the antics which have taken place this morning——

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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All caused by the Tánaiste.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste should look in her own back yard.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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——as a reflection of the way in which we will deal with the economic difficulties we now have to face and address.

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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What did the Government do last Tuesday?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Zero tolerance.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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This House did a good job in the context of the banking issues raised in the crisis——

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Time will tell.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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We will see.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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——which has been accepted by the European Union——

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Is this a lecture?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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——and has been followed by many other member states on the basis of the decisions made here.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Now the Government is doing a job on the elderly. Not a good job, just a job.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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If the Opposition wishes to drive political wedges among those in the Government——

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Splinters more like.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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——I am sorry——

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Sorry for doing it I would say.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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——but it will not happen.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The backbenchers will revolt.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Tánaiste to finish.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the request made by a number of Members of the Opposition, the Minister for Health and Children will not be coming to the House because we will deal with the issues as ordered today.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It is because she is afraid to come in.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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However, I am sure I could impress upon her to make available some of her officials to carry out tutorials for those who are inept and unable to read what is on the HSE website.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should stand up and be accountable.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I want to give the Tánaiste and the Government notice that the Opposition parties — I am sure I can say this on behalf of the Labour Party — will continue to pursue the Government's crazy decision on medical cards for the over 70s.

In respect of tomorrow's debate on the bank guarantee scheme, as published by the Government and given approval by the European Commission, Deputy Joan Burton pointed out that this is an expensive guarantee to the banking institutions. Will the Tánaiste confirm that the Minister for Finance will be in the Chamber for the entire debate tomorrow? We do not want a farcical situation where, in the middle of a critically important matter such as this, the Minister for Finance absconds from the House to attend some constituency function or other. Nothing in his constituency is more important than tomorrow's debate. He must take it in its entirety. Will the Tánaiste confirm he will be here for the entire debate?

Fears have been expressed by Fianna Fáil Members and others that if this guarantee were to be called in, the banks would pass on the charge to their customers. The Taoiseach made it clear that the banking sector would have to pay for this deal if it were to be called in. Will the Tánaiste confirm that the customer, the taxpayer and those who use the banking system will not be liable for the charges that may arise if the guarantee were to be called in inside its two year period?

I understand the deal, as published, cannot be amended because it has been agreed to by the European Commission. That means Deputies on this side of the House will have to ask questions of concern to them. One question that must be raised is the extent of parliamentary scrutiny of the regulations that will apply.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I see no reason that the principle adopted by Fine Gael some time ago where those persons, as was mentioned by the Financial Regulator last week, who will attend on behalf of State on the banks' boards and risk management committees should not be able to attend the Committee of Public Accounts to give their views on what service they can give the State from attending such boards. Will the Tánaiste explain how parliamentary scrutiny, which is not written into the scheme, will apply when the Minister for Finance claims we are deep into the banking sector? If we are in that deep, we need to know what is going on, the extent of bad debt, rolled up interest and the actual liabilities. Will all these be given by the Minister for Finance tomorrow when he attends for the entire debate?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny will accept and understand that the Tánaiste cannot be expected to be able to go into the detail of the scheme itself. That is a matter for tomorrow which we must accept.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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She knows everything.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The attendance of the Minister for Finance is another matter. I will ask the Tánaiste to address the other matters.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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We have agreed there will be statements by the Minister for Finance and the relevant spokespersons. Everyone will then be afforded the opportunity for two hours to ask questions on the matter.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Will we be able to ask the Minister for Finance these questions?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister will answer the questions to the best of his ability for the benefit of all Members.

The Leader of the Opposition is correct that the terms of the guarantee cannot be amended. I listened to the Fine Gael spokesperson on this and he appreciated that point.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What about a bank calling in the guarantee and then passing the charge on to its customers?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is a matter for tomorrow because it relates to the content of the scheme. It is a matter Deputy Enda Kenny will no doubt bring up tomorrow as Leader of the Opposition.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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On promised legislation, the Tánaiste informed the House earlier that the legislative measure to remove medical cards from old age pensioners will be contained in the social welfare Bill. When will the Bill be published? I encourage all pensioners to ask their Deputy how he or she will vote on the measure when it comes before the Dáil. It is clear that the removal——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Eamon Gilmore is well aware that he cannot call for that on the Order of Business.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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——of the medical card from pensioners will be done by legislation passed in this House.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should stay on the Order of Business.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That legislation will have to be voted on by every Member. Pensioners and their families should get an assurance from their Deputy that he or she will not vote——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Tánaiste on the social welfare Bill. Deputy Eamon Gilmore I have given much latitude already this morning.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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——for the removal of the medical card from pensioners.

When will the Government move the writ for the Dublin South by-election?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The social welfare Bill will be available in two weeks. It will not just include the measures to which the Deputy referred. It will also ensure the €400 payment scheme will be introduced and the measure to exclude those over 70 from the health levy. I am sure he will agree with these measures.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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It is the first step on the road to back down on this measure.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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All Members will have their constituency clinics on Saturday and I am sure we will facilitate everyone who comes with a question.

There has been no decision on the Dublin South by-election.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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The Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2001 is an Act of Parliament. The Minister for Health and Children said this Act will be amended by way of the social welfare Bill. Has this been put to and agreed by the Cabinet?

Will the Tánaiste tell the Minister for Health and Children to instruct the Health Service Executive to take down the illegal information on medical cards from its website?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot talk about websites today.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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This is still a democracy and the legislation has not been amended.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have been talking about democracy all morning.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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We have been listening attentively too.

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We do not disagree with you, a Cheann Comhairle.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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The website claims the medical card scheme will be changed on 1 January but that has not been passed by legislation. We live in a democracy. Will the Health Service Executive take the illegal information off its website?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It is proposed to introduce these measures under the social welfare Bill.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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Has it been agreed by Cabinet to amend the Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2001?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The social welfare Bill has not been brought to Cabinet yet; therefore, we could not discuss it.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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That means there is no agreement that the medical card system will be amended.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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There is agreement on the matter. Its implementation and the methodologies by which it will be dealt with will be done through the social welfare Bill.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That is very unfair.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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It has been agreed to amend the Act.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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It will be done through the social welfare Bill and the Parliamentary Counsel will deal with that.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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Public representatives better deal with it as well.

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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In light of the appalling——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I do not think this is the Deputy's first contribution this morning.

Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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He is wearing a nice tie though.

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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——and savage attack on elderly people and the dreadful cutbacks in health services announced in the budget, much information is being put out in the media by various Ministers, each one contradicting the other.

Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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There surely is.

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Who will give the correct definition of what is happening in the Government?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are not into definitions here.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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They are tutorials.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy can take that up with the Tánaiste later. I call Deputy Shortall.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I seek your assistance on a matter, a Cheann Comhairle. Earlier, the Tánaiste misled the House concerning the circumstances surrounding the setting of income limits for medical cards.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot go back on that now.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I am asking for your assistance on this matter.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Right.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Will you request the Tánaiste, now or later today, to correct the record of the House in that regard?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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If the Deputy wishes to make a substantive allegation concerning a Minister, Minister of State or any other Member misleading the House, it may be done by a substantive motion, but it cannot be done across the floor of the House or by innuendo. That is my ruling on it and we cannot go any further. It is a ruling on which I have been entirely consistent.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I look for your direction on this.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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If the Deputy is of the view that somebody misled the House, that would be an allegation of a serious nature against an office holder. It can be brought before the House by way of a substantive motion. That is the assistance I offer the Deputy. That is as far as I can put it.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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What opportunity will I have to bring this motion before the House?

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I strongly suggest that the Deputy visit the office of the clerk and she will be assisted in the procedure that must be followed in laying a substantive motion before the House.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I want to ask the Tánaiste about two points. First, the Finance Bill has to be enacted within 100 days of the budget.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Because the budget was brought forward this year and because of the Christmas recess, we are in a very tight deadline. When will the Bill be published? It would need to be published by 1 November to give us an opportunity to consider it properly. I heard Deputy Fleming speaking on "Tonight with Vincent Browne" last night——

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Never mind Vincent Browne now.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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——saying the reason for the fiasco over medical cards was that the Estimates had not been published. When will we get the Finance Bill? Second, will the Tánaiste clarify one matter before that Bill is published? From what the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, said the other day, people on an occupational pension over 70 will be subject to the new 1% income tax levy. Other members of the Government have been appalled at that and did not appreciate that was so.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Burton knows that I cannot go into the content of the Finance Bill here this morning. It would not be possible for the Tánaiste to answer that question.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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She said that people with a social welfare pension will be exempt from the 1% income tax levy.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Burton has had several bites of the cherry, Please allow the Tánaiste to answer the question on the Finance Bill. When will the Finance Bill be published?

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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On the issue of the Finance Bill, I will get absolute clarity on the date, but it will be approximately 22 October. However, we are cognisant of the fact that it has to be available in time. The other issues are matters for the Bill.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I wish to raise two things. There is terrible confusion about the 2% health levy.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot resolve it here this morning.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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It is important to clarify this in the context of the Bill.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Loads of things are important.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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We must clarify whether this will happen under the social welfare legislation. The Minister for Finance told me yesterday that it will not apply, but on the radio today he did not answer that question.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The 2% health levy will not apply.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Tánaiste should not deal with that.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I have a second point, if I may. I hope the 10% cut Ministers and public servants are taking will be ring-fenced and put into something real, such as isolation rooms for cystic fibrosis sufferers, instead of being used to pay bonuses for HSE bosses.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is definitely not in order.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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We look forward to the Deputy surrendering 10% of all his income, as well.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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On 9 October, I received a letter from the HSE concerning the health repayment scheme. The letter said the HSE could not give me any information due to the data protection laws governing the scheme. I got the same reply last May and this time last year.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should take it up with the HSE.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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This concerns legislation. I got the same correspondence in 2005, 2006 and 2007.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not in order at all.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I got a reply from the Minister.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does the Deputy have a question on legislation?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I want to qualify the point because I am coming to the legislation. The administration of this scheme is a disgrace.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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What legislation is the Deputy talking about?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The only legislation that I can find dealing with this is the Health (Information) Bill. Perhaps, in her own inimitable fashion, the Tánaiste might be able to elucidate how this Bill can be brought forward as a matter of urgency, so that we can highlight this atrocity.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We have to move on.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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The consultation process has been completed and the matters are being considered.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is not good enough.