Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 74: To ask the Minister for Defence the progress made in the civilianisation of the Defence Forces arising from the pay agreement and modernisation agenda agreed with the Defence Forces representative associations in the context of the Towards 2016 partnership agreement; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [26010/08]

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The White Paper on Defence 2000 covers the potential benefits of civilianisation and contracting out of certain military posts. It recognises that civilianisation could "release personnel for operational duties for which they are specifically trained". It could release them "from essentially administrative and other tasks which can more appropriately be undertaken by civilians". It further states: "The argument for civilianisation and contracting out is that it is generally more cost effective". The White Paper also recognises that there may be additional benefits such as enhancing continuity in certain appointments, which can be lacking due to the frequent transfer of military personnel.

Opportunities to civilianise certain posts are continuously being explored. This has resulted in agreement that certain posts that would in the normal course of events have been filled by military personnel will be filled by civilian personnel. Four such posts are being filled in the management information framework area and three in the military archives.

The review of implementation of the White Paper on Defence, which was published in April 2007, emphasised that the primary objective of civilianisation is to release soldiers for operational duties, thus increasing the operational capacity of the Defence Forces. The review recommended further civil and military exploration of options for civilianisation. Subsequent to the publication of the review, civilianisation was incorporated into the pay agreement and modernisation agenda agreed with the Defence Forces representative associations in the context of the Towards 2016 partnership agreement.

My Department is currently engaged in discussions with the military authorities to identify military posts that may be suitable for contracting out and civilianisation. This work in progress requires careful consideration of the costs and benefits arising from the civilianisation of any identified posts and assessing the feasibility of any such proposals, with particular reference to resource constraints. When potential posts have been identified, discussions with the representative associations, as envisaged in the pay agreement and modernisation agenda, and any other relevant stakeholders will commence.

Jack Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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I am disappointed that only seven positions have been filled through the civilianisation of the Defence Forces. Everyone will agree that the professionalism of the Irish Army today renders it unrecognisable from days gone by. Everyone in the Army wants to play his or her part and seeks promotion, within the confines of his or her qualifications. What is evident is a drawback and I would like to see greater progress. There has been much progress in the civilianisation of Garda positions which has made a huge difference. There should be greater drive with regard to the Defence Forces and its representative bodies. Agreement was reached on providing for this in the pay agreement and modernisation agenda. Surely it is fair to assume the delays are being caused by the Department and senior Army personnel. The process is not moving forward at as fast a pace as one might have expected.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the Deputy's comments on the speed at which the process is being driven, we do not want to impose it on anyone and are taking a partnership approach based on agreement. My answer may have been misleading in that I mentioned four posts in the IT area and three in the archives area, but the catering business has also been contracted out, which has released 100 soldiers for operational duties. I understand ten other posts are under consideration for civilianisation. Some 830 civilians are employed in the Defence Forces.

The White Paper of 2000 was based on the PricewaterhouseCoopers report of 1994. The world and the Army have changed greatly since. The Army has been downsized by around 25% and its focus has shifted very much towards overseas missions, in respect of which there less scope for civilianisation. We are proceeding more slowly than originally anticipated because circumstances have changed dramatically.

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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There seems to be no great urgency about civilianisation but perhaps the Minister is proceeding with caution. I have referred previously to the medical corps in this regard and I am sure the Minister agrees that there should be a role for the employment of medical doctors, given that there is such difficulty in attracting personnel to the Army medical corps. The position does not seem to be improving, despite the incentives provided. Does the Minister see an opportunity for attracting civilians into the Army on a permanent basis through the medical corps? There should also be scope for civilianisation of the dental service.

Jack Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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Is there a heading in the Department's budget relating to the civilianisation of military posts? Is there a cost factor that is slowing down this initiative?

Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Deputy Deenihan. As he will be aware, because the incentives did not succeed in increasing the complement of doctors and dentists to the level needed by the Army, rather than avail of the services of the private sector we will completely organise the Army medical corps. We have brought in consultants to advise us in this regard.

Regarding Deputy Wall's question, to the best of my recollection there is not a specific subhead for civilianisation, to which there is a cost attached. For example, an Army colonel may do work that could be done as well, if not better, by a civilian. If a civilian is employed to do this work and the colonel remains in situ, there is a question of extra staff, which is not a popular concept in the Department of Finance.

Jack Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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Perhaps that is the reason.