Dáil debates

Tuesday, 24 June 2008

Prison Development (Confirmation of Resolutions) Bill 2008: Committee and Remaining Stages

 

SECTION 1.

Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."

6:00 pm

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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By force of numbers, it appears that this matter will proceed. It is a pity that, over the course of the weeks in which this was debated, the Minister has not addressed the issues. I refer to the timescale, assuming that this is the last opportunity to do so. What is the timescale for building the super prison? Dates of 2011 and 2010 have been mentioned.

The Minister has indicated that the public private partnership is a done deal. It is expected that documents will be signed but the principle has been agreed. Is this a fait accompli? Can the Minister refer to the target dates and the likely cost of the development?

7:00 pm

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I refer to the timescale and the fact that the preferred bidder is Mr. Bernard McNamara. Regarding the recent controversy in respect of Dublin City Council and five housing projects, we sought an assurance from the Minister that he had examined the reasons Mr. McNamara's company withdrew from the housing projects in the city and that the Minister is satisfied that Mr. McNamara has the capacity to deliver on this project. The reason advanced for pushing through this motion and Bill before the summer recess was that the Minister wanted to get on with construction. When will construction work start?

I take the opportunity of addressing the section to refer to the Minister's remarks made about the fact that I quoted an assistant secretary in his Department delivering a paper at a criminology conference yesterday. I have endeavoured to give the Minister advice, which he is free to reject, not to be so prickly in his dealings with the Opposition. The proposition that a paper delivered to an open conference by an assistant secretary of the Minister's Department cannot be adduced in this House to support a point is absurd.

Photo of Michael D HigginsMichael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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There will be a meeting at midnight of senior mandarins in his Department because of the remarks I made, which were not attacking the official, whom I did not name. The official said that the Department is dysfunctional. I can read it out again if the Minister wishes. That was the import of what he said. The proposition that the paper can be quoted in learned journals on criminology but that a Member cannot say what was in it and ask the Minister to respond is untenable. Instead, the Minister gave me a lecture on the inappropriateness of my mentioning that in the House. I meant no attack on the official concerned or the officials in the Department. It is clear that they are so preoccupied firefighting that they have no time to devote to policy formulation. That was the point we were making.

I refer to the juggernaut purchased by Mr. McDowell, driven a bit along the road by the Minister's predecessor, and driven into the loading bay by the Minister. That the Minister was not prepared to engage with advocates of penal reform or this House and has pushed it through to finality seems to bear out what the assistant secretary concerned said. I was saying that and no more.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Would the Minister consider amending the section at this late stage to prevent the incarceration of young offenders in Thornton Hall, which the Minister has suggested will be the consequence of the suggested timeframe to which the Minister envisages Mr. Bernard McNamara and his company sticking? This is due to the fact that the Department has not succeeded in lodging the planning application for the Lusk centre for young offenders.

The Minister stated that he could not stand over the over-incarceration of up to 130% in the Dóchas centre. However, material produced on this prison suggests over-incarceration of up to 160% because it is being built for 1,400 inmates but the Minister has stated several times that it will hold up to 2,200.

The Minister said this prison was driven by the best possible design and best practice. Since we do not have sight of the design we do not know if it lives up to his claims until it is completed, people are housed in it and the staff move in. I do not know how the Minister can stand over those claims since we do not have sight of the design or the particulars.

Photo of Dermot AhernDermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the building of this prison and the procedure in the Houses, there has been no more consultation about any prison in the history of the State than about this prison. It is a lot better than the procedure heretofore, in respect of the exemption under Part 9 of the Planning and Development Regulations 2001.

Photo of Michael CreedMichael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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The Department bought the land without consulting anybody.

Photo of Dermot AhernDermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the figures of 1,400 and 2,200, as I said on Committee Stage, we were expected to give a worst case scenario on the ultimate capacity of the prison for the environmental impact statement. It is not the intention for the foreseeable to go beyond the capacity of 1,400 prisoners, with single cell occupancy. This may occur in exceptional circumstances. Mountjoy Prison was designed for a certain number but 150 years later it holds many more people.

The Government has given approval to proceed on Oberstown. If that is not finished in time, rather than continuing to incarcerate the 16 year old and 17 year old offenders in St. Patrick's Institution, it would be better to have them housed separately within one of the units in Thornton Hall when it is up and running.

If this Bill is passed, the negotiations with the preferred bidder can proceed. The preferred bidder is McNamara, Barclays Private Equity and GSL, which is part of Group 4 Securicor. If Oireachtas approval is given this week, negotiations will be finalised and construction will start in the latter part of the year. It is expected that construction would start immediately and the prison would be ready for occupancy in 2011.

It is unfair that Deputy Rabbitte referred to a civil servant who is not here to defend himself. I understand this has been the convention. As I stated, Deputy Rabbitte may state he did not attack him but I had messages from the particular civil servant and I understand the Deputy has been putting a spin on what he stated.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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That is not something the Minister would do.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That would be totally unusual for the other side of the House.

Photo of Dermot AhernDermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is showing his colours.

Photo of John O'DonoghueJohn O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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As it is now 7 p.m. I am required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the Dáil of this day: "That each of the sections undisposed of is hereby agreed to and the Title is hereby agreed to, that Report Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed."

Question put.

The Dail Divided:

For the motion: 73 (Dermot Ahern, Michael Ahern, Noel Ahern, Barry Andrews, Chris Andrews, Bobby Aylward, Joe Behan, Niall Blaney, Áine Brady, Cyprian Brady, Johnny Brady, John Browne, Thomas Byrne, Dara Calleary, Pat Carey, Niall Collins, Margaret Conlon, Seán Connick, Mary Coughlan, Brian Cowen, John Cregan, Ciarán Cuffe, John Curran, Noel Dempsey, Jimmy Devins, Timmy Dooley, Michael Finneran, Michael Fitzpatrick, Beverley Flynn, Pat Gallagher, Paul Gogarty, John Gormley, Noel Grealish, Mary Hanafin, Seán Haughey, Jackie Healy-Rae, Máire Hoctor, Billy Kelleher, Brendan Kenneally, Michael Kennedy, Séamus Kirk, Michael Kitt, Tom Kitt, Brian Lenihan Jnr, Conor Lenihan, Michael Lowry, Martin Mansergh, Micheál Martin, Tom McEllistrim, Finian McGrath, Mattie McGrath, Michael McGrath, John McGuinness, John Moloney, Michael Moynihan, Michael Mulcahy, M J Nolan, Éamon Ó Cuív, Seán Ó Fearghaíl, Darragh O'Brien, Charlie O'Connor, Willie O'Dea, Noel O'Flynn, Ned O'Keeffe, Mary O'Rourke, Christy O'Sullivan, Dick Roche, Eamon Ryan, Trevor Sargent, Eamon Scanlon, Noel Treacy, Mary Wallace, Mary White)

Against the motion: 60 (James Bannon, Pat Breen, Tommy Broughan, Richard Bruton, Ulick Burke, Joan Burton, Catherine Byrne, Joe Carey, Deirdre Clune, Paul Connaughton, Simon Coveney, Seymour Crawford, Michael Creed, Michael D'Arcy, John Deasy, Jimmy Deenihan, Andrew Doyle, Bernard Durkan, Damien English, Olwyn Enright, Frank Feighan, Martin Ferris, Charles Flanagan, Eamon Gilmore, Brian Hayes, Tom Hayes, Michael D Higgins, Phil Hogan, Paul Kehoe, Enda Kenny, Ciarán Lynch, Kathleen Lynch, Pádraic McCormack, Shane McEntee, Dinny McGinley, Joe McHugh, Liz McManus, Olivia Mitchell, Arthur Morgan, Denis Naughten, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Jim O'Keeffe, John O'Mahony, Brian O'Shea, Jan O'Sullivan, Willie Penrose, John Perry, Pat Rabbitte, James Reilly, Michael Ring, Alan Shatter, P J Sheehan, Seán Sherlock, Róisín Shortall, Emmet Stagg, David Stanton, Billy Timmins, Joanna Tuffy, Mary Upton)

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Question declared carried.