James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I thank both the Ceann Comhairle and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. It is unusual to have the opportunity to thank both of them simultaneously.

I have already mentioned to the Minister the antipathy to this plan from a very august group, the Central Mental Hospital Roundtable Meeting and the Mental Hospital Carers' Group. I shall mention later the participants who comprise a formidable range of bodies.

What is proposed is also against Government policy. It contradicts the principles and recommendations of A Vision for Change, the Government's agreed policy on future mental health services. It specifically contradicts the following principles:

Priority should be given to the care of individuals with severe and enduring mental illness in the least restrictive environment possible. Forensic mental health units need to be clearly identified as being intervention and rehabilitation facilities that operate in particular conditions of security rather than facilities offering mainly containment. Forensic mental health services should have a strong community focus.

The proposal as laid down, putting the hospital in an isolated rural place like Thornton Hall, flies in the face of these three principles and conditions. Furthermore, it is against best international practice. It is incompatible with best international therapeutic practice in forensic psychiatry and mental health. It is against international human rights obligations. It contravenes the principles and spirit of both the international convention on economic, social and cultural rights of the United Nations and that body's principles for the protection of persons with mental illness and for the improvement of mental health care.

In addition, there was no consultation with users and their families. The decision was made without consultation with the key stakeholders, the patients, their families and carers. I am sure that the Minister saw the programme on RTE, as I did, and heard the points made by the Schizophrenia Society of Ireland and by relatives of patients who are now in the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum.

There is an absence of a cost-benefit analysis, including an evaluation of the loss of social and intellectual capital associated with the move, should it be undertaken. We ask the Government to review its decision to relocate the Central Mental Hospital and to re-consider other options that may be available to it.

The document I have was put together by a group of people who list, in addition, others who have publicly commented on the proposed relocation of the Central Mental Hospital. These include Amnesty International's Irish section, Aware, Bodywhys, the eating disorder association of Ireland, Central Mental Hospital Carers' group, the Disability Federation of Ireland, Donncha Ó Connell, Dean of Law at NUI Galway, Fine Gael, Gheel Autism Services, the Green Party in its election manifesto 2007 — I would like to hear from that party its view on the proposal — Hale Housing Association, the Human Rights Commission, Inclusion Ireland, the Irish Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy, the Inspector of Mental Health Services, the interim National Service Users Executive, the Irish Advocacy Network, the Irish Association of Social Workers, the Irish Penal Reform Trust, Dr. Harry Kennedy, the clinical director of the Central Mental Hospital, the Labour Party, the Mental Health Commission, Mental Health Ireland, Senator David Norris, the Psychiatric Nurses Association, the former President of Ireland, Mary Robinson, Schizophrenia Ireland, Sinn Féin, Dr. Charles Smith, former director of the mental hospitals, and Teenline Ireland.

This long list of august groups have serious concerns about this issue. In addition, and not mentioned in that report, are other issues that Fine Gael and I have with this proposal. Are immigrants now to be put on the same site and also stigmatised? Will their first experience in the country be a placement on the same site as a criminal institution?

The Minister may not need planning permission from Fingal County Council for this prison but he will need it for the relocated hospital from Dundrum. I am happy to say that, to my knowledge, none of the 24 councillors on Fingal County Council will back this move and grant such planning permission. At least the councillors, which include members of Government parties, can see that this is a retrograde step in terms of care of the mentally ill in our society.

Much of the key skill set that has evolved over 100 years in Dundrum will be lost. Many of the people who work there will not wish to work in a rural setting on the far side of Dublin, with the associated travel and expense to them personally. We will lose key workers if the Minister persists in moving the Central Mental Hospital to this site. It appears to me that, yet again, the Government is more concerned about saving money and face rather than looking after patients.

I know the Minister has a reputation for being a hard man, one who is not afraid to take hard decisions. I ask him, however, in this instance to make sure that the decision he is about to take is modified so that it does not cause hardship, as it surely will, to those who have mental illness in this country. I ask him to reconsider the situation, particularly as it refers to the relocation of the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum. I further question the wisdom and financial sense of closing a women's prison, a modern facility built only 15 years ago, which has all the benefits of being the centre of the city, allowing for visiting. Women very often have children and they need to be accessible to them. Surely that need is better served by their being in town rather than in a rural setting.

I ask the Minister, once again, to try to see this matter from a perspective other than a fiscal-property one and to think about the implications for the mentally ill, adolescents and, in particular, women.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak on the motion. The committee discussion earlier was grossly inadequate. The debate is to be guillotined tonight but it is totally unacceptable that the committee debate on this matter was also guillotined. Some Members of the House, myself included, have specific issues on which we required some clarity. Sadly, an opportunity to get the information we required was not afforded us at the committee.

I have had the chance since then to look at some of the drawings in respect of proposals that are being put forward at the moment. I wish to get some clarification on some of these matters — perhaps when the Minister makes his response.

I wish to focus specifically on the immigration element of this facility. The Minister told us at the committee that there is no provision for asylum seekers. If that is the case I ask the Minister where those asylum seekers, who are currently accommodated within the prison system, are to be housed? A number of asylum seekers are detained in prison at present.

The Minister has said that up to 100 places are to be provided for deportees in this new facility. If they double up, if there is sufficient facility for them to do so, 7,300 bednights a year are available for deportees. I question the logic of this move. There is a significant and continuing reduction in the numbers of those coming into this country seeking asylum who might potentially be deported from the country. The number of asylum applications does not equate with the predicted dramatic increase in the number of detainees awaiting deportation.

According to the Irish Prison Service's report of 2006, 1,113 individuals were detained in prisons prior to deportation from the State. The Minister said the facility to be provided in Thornton Hall will cater for men and women. I understand from my map that the men's complex will be separate to that of the women. Will there be places in the women's prison designated for female detainees pending deportation? Alternatively, will they be placed in a cordoned-off section of the designated facility in the men's prison? Will the Minister clarify this?

I do not see the logic behind catering for 100 places. The Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2008, which is currently in committee, provides for summary deportation. If someone poses a potential flight risk, the Garda need only pick him or her up when the plane is waiting at Dublin Airport to transport him or her out of the country. The number entering the system is far lower than it was and I therefore do not believe there is a strong case for increasing capacity for detainees awaiting deportation. At present, a number of individuals awaiting deportation are detained in prisons around the country, including those in Limerick and Castlerea. Does the Government intend to detain all such individuals in Thornton Hall?

It would be remiss of me not to mention two of my newest constituents, who are detained in Castlerea Prison. They have not been prepared to give the authorities any idea of their identification or origin. They are reported as having said they are quite happy to remain in the prison rather than be deported. If this trend were to continue in Thornton Hall, a substantial number of places in the prison would be taken up by individuals who are not prepared to identify themselves or their origins.

If 100 places are maintained for detainees awaiting deportation per year, there will be an annual bill of €6 million. This is a conservative estimate. There are better ways to spend it than on holding facilities for deportees. What is the Minister's plan for asylum seekers if they are not to be accommodated in this facility? I hope he will provide some clarity on this. In his contribution on Committee Stage, the Minister stated there was no provision for asylum seekers but that there is provision in respect of deportees. It is fundamental that there be clarity on this specific issue because a significant sum is required to hold people in the facility, even if it is to be on a short-term basis.

When I raised this issue during Committee Stage of the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2008 with the former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, he said it is fair to say the basic cost of securing, maintaining and accommodating a deportee, discounting the cost of rehabilitative training, for example, is similar to that of detaining any other type of prisoner. Naturally, if one were in prison for a short period, one would not require rehabilitative training. Will the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, state the number of detainees awaiting deportation who will be housed in the proposed facility annually? There will definitely be a dramatic increase in the number to be detained therein. The number involved at present is significantly lower than that for which provision is being made at the proposed facility.

During the debate of the joint committee today, I referred to the cost of planting mature trees on part of the boundary of the site at Thornton Hall. I had the opportunity to look at the relevant drawings in the Oireachtas Library and noted the location of existing houses in the vicinity of the prison. The Minister intends to plant mature trees to give instant height and foliage to a depth of ten to 20 metres in the vicinity of the houses. This will affect a significant amount of the perimeter of the prison. I estimate it will be affect 50%, or approximately a mile. If this is correct, the scale of planting will be pretty significant. Will the Minster indicate the cost of doing this? I presume he knows the cost and I hope he can furnish it to the House this evening.

Why was the Office of Public Works not involved directly in the design of the new prison? It was involved directly in the design of the last greenfield prison development, that is, Castlerea Prison in County Roscommon. Surely the office has developed expertise in this regard that could facilitate the design of the proposed prison and the surrounding complex. Senator O'Toole referred today to the impact on the existing water table and aquifers of constructing a concrete wall whose foundations will be significantly deep in the ground.

I commend the amendment to the House and hope the Minister will accept it.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am sure the Minister knows that, some 20 years ago, the Committee of Inquiry into the Penal System, headed by Dr. T. K. Whitaker, produced the landmark report on the Irish prison system. When I referred to it earlier today, the Minister uttered a rather belittling reply. I remind him that Dr. Whitaker, who is alive and well — I am not sure if the Minister knows this — wrote this year the foreword to "The Whitaker Committee Report 20 Years On: Lessons Learned or Lessons Forgotten?" Dr. Whitaker is the doyen of Irish public servants and is in many ways the father of our economic prosperity and growth. He is also a man with unbelievable humanity capable of reaching out not only to people who are poor but to those on the wrong side of the law, often as a consequence of their poverty. He does not regard their poverty as an excuse for their being on the wrong side of the law.

In his foreword, Dr. Whitaker states: "We recommended a limit on prison places as a spur to the introduction of more relevant and less costly forms of legal redress and punishment." As the Minister stated recently, there is not a red cent for the hospital in Navan. He will blow the house on this super-prison proposal for 2,200 inmates.

Dr. T. K. Whitaker stated:

. . . what I have gained from all this is a greater appreciation of the difficulties of dealing humanely and effectively with those [people who end up in prison]. It is disappointing, in this context, that the Dóchas centre for women prisoners faces closure and removal to a less convenient location.

That is a senior civil servant who used soft words to make an appeal to his successors in the public service to have some sense.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is the Deputy sharing her time?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I wish to share my time with Deputy Ó Snodaigh. I ask the Leas-Cheann Comhairle to notify me when five minutes have concluded.

Dr. T. K. Whitaker goes on to state: "it seems that it is not just the penal system, but the whole social system that needs attention, directed towards minimising the alienation from moral and constructive living of so many who, missing out on good parenting and schooling, fall victim to drug abuse and gravitate to crime as a route to peer acclaim and easy money". I grew up in a tough working class community in which those who did not make it through the education system often ended up in prison and in jail. I know many parents, particularly mothers, of people who ended up on the wrong side of the law. The Minister can say "There but for the grace of God" and in recent years, some of his party got to hang their hats in Mountjoy, albeit for a brief period, because they were on the wrong side of the law in their performance as politicians.

The Minister's arrogance about the destruction of Dóchas and the decision to relocate the Central Mental Hospital from Dundrum to Thornton Hall ill-becomes him. Speaking down the years, Dr. Whitaker has had a point on which, with some humility, all Members could ponder. Dóchas is the Irish for hope and the Dóchas women's prison attempts to rehabilitate women. Obviously the Minister has lost the run of himself in respect of this project and rehabilitation has dropped out of the scheme. I will repeat to the Minister what I stated previously, that the proposal to use a prison van to carry visitors out to the prison is an exercise in despair. The families who travel on whatever prison transport the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform provides, be it a van or a bus, are subject to the most incredible pressure by the peers of serious criminals who are incarcerated. They are under pressure to smuggle drugs and to do deals.

In a country of Ireland's size, it makes no sense to have a super prison unless, in the context of the public private partnership arranged by the Minister, who will not provide details on the finances, the Government ultimately has an agenda to privatise the prison. The Green Party Members, who are absent from the debate tonight, stated in their election manifesto and at numerous public meetings that the prison at Thornton Hall would not go ahead. The silence and absence of its Members is an eloquence of what their word and bond means.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an dTeachta Burton as a cuid ama a roinnt. This process is flawed from start to finish. Although I will not go over the ground again, the site's procurement was questionable. Moreover, the proposal before Members is questionable. The alternatives have not been investigated fully and super prisons do not deliver the result wished for by society. Anyone who has examined super prisons in other countries will be aware they contribute to gang warfare and the growth of gangs, and that is what this project is. In addition, it is questionable whether anyone considered an alternative to the public private partnership method of delivery.

However, I will concentrate on the motion before us, which essentially asks Members to be a planning authority. Although any planning authority will examine the detail of what is put in front of it, Members do not have specific details in respect of what has been put before them. At the committee meeting, I asked for certain details but was met with a snigger. That is not good enough. I do not seek to establish the type of bolt that is on prison doors or to ascertain the size of the walls, but Members should be entitled to know the cell size, the type of accommodation, how much space is available for rehabilitation or to visiting facilities and the like. That is not contained in the details provided. Members do not know how big the women's prison or the remand section will be. Similarly, they do not know how large the immigration detention centre will be, as the Minister has been trying to slide it in on the sly.

Members do not know how large the supposed new Garda station will be because the Government has not applied for planning permission. However, people are being told it will be there. It is not known how frequent the bus service — this magical bus — will be or whether planning permission has been sought for a court. Members have not been provided with a massive raft of detail that would enable them to make a decision on this project as a planning application. Any official in An Bord Pleanála would throw out this proposal lock, stock and barrel because of lack of detail. It is not good enough for the Minister to ask Members to be a planning authority on something as vague as a 7.2 m wall while everything contained therein is none of their business. The Minister at committee inaccurately told Members that the highest building in this complex would be two storeys.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Apart from the tower.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, apart from the tower, which, in the nice little diagrams provided for Members, does not appear. Members do not know the tower's height and it is not included in the illustrations provided by the Minister.

The information possessed by Members is inaccurate in itself. The list of questions and details that have been provided by residents in that area show its inaccuracy and the environmental impact assessment that was carried out did not include the entire site and the surrounding areas. It did not cover two of the prison's four sides or the local drainage scheme. While the Minister's officials stated there is no flooding in the area, photographs exist to prove otherwise. The assessment did not cover a local well that provides the water supply for a local equestrian centre because it does not exist, according to the Minister's adviser.

This entire matter is farcical from start to finish. It is a living disgrace that the House is being asked to act as a planning authority with insufficient detail for Members to make an opinion as to whether the House can sign up to something and whether value for money can be achieved. Moreover, alternatives to incarceration or prison policy in itself have not been considered. Although these constitute broad areas of discussions that have not taken place in the House, a monstrous prison is being planned.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for the opportunity to address this issue as Thornton Hall is located in my Dublin West constituency. I wish to express my opposition to this project in its entirety, first on the basis of its cost. The site cost is €40 million, which is an extraordinary cost for a piece of agricultural land that probably is only worth approximately €6 million, and that is before one includes the cost of providing the road network linking it to the N2 and the considerable cost of servicing the site, which will add to the total cost.

I oppose this project on the basis of its location, which is rural and isolated and is entirely inappropriate for a prison of this scale. I am concerned about the dubious process by which the site was acquired, the lack of democratic input into the decision effectively to railroad Fingal County Council into accepting this and preventing proper planning process from occurring and the somewhat incomplete environmental impact assessment that was performed.

I join my party colleagues in expressing concern about the possibility that the site may be used in future to house women prisoners, given that an excellent women's prison already exists. It would be inappropriate and wrong to move it for property benefits rather than anything else. I am also concerned the Department will seek planning permission to locate the Central Mental Hospital in Thornton Hall. This would be a retrograde step and would be the opposite of every other country's policy, which is to separate prisons from forensic mental hospitals. Let us be honest. The only reason this is being done is because of the property interests of the various Departments concerned, which want to cash in on some valuable land.

This proposal should not go ahead on the grounds of human rights. I will be using my influence with members of Fingal County Council to ensure permission is not granted for the relocation of the Central Mental Hospital to this site, to ensure that a specific objective is not added in and that there is no variation. However, I have no doubt the Government will try to introduce legislation to get around the council and circumvent democracy once again, in order to impose its money making property plan by selling land in Dundrum and putting the Central Mental Hospital in Thornton Hall.

The current Minister for Finance is a local TD in Dublin West. I attended several meetings in the run-up to the general election, in which Deputy Brian Lenihan, then the Minister of State with responsibility for children, promised there would be a full review of the decision to locate the prison if the Government was re-elected. There can be no doubt that the Minister has betrayed and deceived the electorate of Dublin West in this area, as no such review has been carried out.

We should not forget the Green Party. This party was the loudest in its opposition to Thornton Hall. Speaking in this House, Deputy Cuffe stated:

Ministers and political leaders have a certain attraction to grands projets. From Charles Haughey to Mitterand in France, the large projects seem to concentrate minds. Ceaucescu, the late President of Romania, spent his latter years erecting a large palace for himself in the centre of Bucharest. Closer to home, the Tánaiste, Deputy McDowell, accused the Taoiseach of pursuing of Ceaucescu like project in the vicinity of the M50. However, I suspect that the Tánaiste's political legacy may well be a rather large white elephant on a site ten miles from Dublin at Thornton Hall in Fingal. The people of Romania eventually revolted and threw out Ceaucescu. I suspect within the next few months, the Irish people may well be revolted enough to remove the Tánaiste, Deputy McDowell, from office.

They were revolted enough and Deputy McDowell was removed from office, but the Green Party replaced him and it is pursuing exactly the same policy of the man they compared to Ceaucescu. Haughey and Mitterand. Never has a party sold itself as cheaply as the Green Party. Never has a party whored itself so cheaply for so little.

In a press statement, Deputy Trevor Sargent commented:

Having visited Mountjoy and seen the women's prison, I feel it is an absolute vandalism to suggest the demolition of a prison of that standard, which has many of the facilities about which the Minister spoke. Much can be done to extend Portlaoise Prison and renovate Mountjoy, as well as looking more carefully at new sites, instead of playing poker with taxpayers' money, as the Minister has done.

This was the view last year of the party that is now in Government this year. I want to give the House one more quote from Deputy Cuffe:

How dare the Tánaiste completely circumvent the planning process in order to build these places of detention? Whether it is dealing with the protected structures at the Mountjoy site or the archaeology at Thornton Hall, I am deeply alarmed that the Tánaiste is simply avoiding the normal planning process in order to deliver projects. That is not good enough and is a negation of the public right to have an input.

The Green Party and its members can argue legitimately that they could not stop the development at Tara. They can perhaps argue they could not stop the incinerator at Poolbeg. They can argue they cannot do anything about Shannon and that it is too late to do something about Rossport. However, they cannot argue that they cannot stop the development at Thornton Hall. They can stop it and can prove they are the party they claim to be by voting against this resolution. However, they will not do that. While I accept their explanations to some extent on incineration, on Rossport, on Shannon and on Tara, this issue is a pure litmus test. If the Green Party is still a party of ethics and high standards, its Members in this House must vote against this proposal tonight, or they will be exposed as cynical and desperate for power and prepared to succumb to Fianna Fáil, regardless of the cost.

It is also important to mention Deputy Finian McGrath, the former Independent representative for Dublin North-Central. He also spoke previously on this issue and told us he was totally opposed to Thornton Hall, and that it was a waste of public money.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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That is a sure sign it will get the go ahead.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Will he turn up for the vote tonight, or will he run out of the Chamber faster than Roadrunner, as he did at a recent meeting of the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights? The Green Party and the former Independent Deputies have become more Fianna Fáil than Fianna Fáil itself. They have cheapened the political process by their cynical stance on this matter. This is a litmus test for the sincerity and standards of the Green Party, and I certainly hope its Deputies will vote against this motion, or they will forever be condemned for the coalition they formed and will suffer dearly for it in due course.

Michael D Higgins (Galway West, Labour)
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I was a member of the McBride commission on prisons in the second half of the 1970s, which was a considerable time before the Whitaker report, and whose members included Gemma Hussey and others. I remember clearly that when we began hearings and published the first interim report, the then Minister for Justice, Gerard Collins, referred to us as a self-appointed commission. Be that as it may, we published a book about this towards the end of the 1970s.

It was easier at that time to speak about the welfare of prisoners and about conditions than it is now. It is incredible that the atmosphere has changed so much among the public, where people feel intimidated from speaking about prisoners' rights. However, we spoke about those rights and our report was followed by the Whitaker report, to which reference has been made, as well as a number of other comments on the prison system, including that of the Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention. I also began teaching a course in 1969 on the sociology of deviant behaviour and the sociology of law, in which we discussed issues of imprisonment and alternatives to prison.

I remember the atmosphere towards the end of the 1970s. As sociologists, we were interested at one stage in setting up an institute of criminology. We were told by many of the fine people who worked in the Department of Justice that they could not openly attend our meetings, as they were forbidden to do so. That was an obstruction to the establishment of a professional body of people who would discuss issues of criminology.

Above all else, prison is about the absence of discretion from the prisoner's point of view. There is no discretion over time, over space or over body. That one principle explains the entire history of prison, right across the European and American systems. At different times, people have taken strategies in the running of prisons that concentrate on either the body or on the mind, or on different aspects of the removal of discretion. The running of prisons is something for which I have the greatest respect, as it is a very difficult thing to do. To do it well is nearly impossible. Again, research into the North American system over the past three decades is conclusive to the effect that private involvement in the running of prisons is almost disastrous. There are many reasons for this. From advanced models in the Scandinavian system, through different European countries and the entire American Continent, accountability in terms of basic rights and standards to the public and the legal system has been best delivered in an entirely public system. The private system works in a way that is seriously defective. For example, the bus that is described as moving people to a new prison is regarded as a degrading shuttle in the American system.

Other issues arise regarding principles of law, namely, the right of people to visit prisoners without being stigmatised. The entire system in private operation in the United States is about stigma that is not confined to the person who has been convicted. Looking back to the time of the McBride report and on to the Whitaker report, I want to say something about the incredible cult and culture of secrecy that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform imposed on the prison system. It was difficult to visit prisons — people were blocked from visiting them. We made an appeal to judges who had sentenced people to exercise their rights to visit any prison to which they had sent someone. We made that appeal to try to open up the system. At that time, the end of the 1970s, the issue was as elementary as getting the prison rules displayed on the wall where a prisoner might see them. They frequently went up before the visiting committees arrived — these were jokes. I am in favour of people being assisted who want to run prisons and that the best conditions are made available to those who have to look after prisoners. However, the visiting committees were, and remain, a disastrous failure. They were more an invention to secure expenses for political hacks than to make any contribution to the prison system.

After the prison rules appeared on the wall, so-called informal rules came into play. I recall a women's prison in which there were rules that were not written down about the number of times a prisoner could wash her hair, about not wearing any jewellery or make-up and the number of times she could change her underwear, etc. They were all put in as informal degradations that were additional to anything that was formal.

Another issue arose in our examination of prison conditions at that time and continued through the Whitaker report. It looked at something the Jesuit Centre for Faith and Justice also examined, namely, the reason people were in prison at all. We looked at women prisoners in particular and the reasons they were in prison. One could see that if ever there was a case for non-custodial sentences and alternatives to prison, they were staring us in the face in terms of the reasons so many women had been convicted.

We moved on to something which I welcomed, the Dóchas centre which was an advanced system that was successful. I congratulate the people involved in terms of the reports published by those who have been caring for prisoners as well as those who have experience of being in prison and used the opportunity to turn around their lives.

I have been a Member of this House for more than 20 years. Shortly after I arrived in 1981, I gave a speech about what a condemnation of Ireland it was that the slopping out practice, which is still going on at Mountjoy, was being retained. Slopping out is a very interesting phenomenon in the context of the sociology of prison. It is the last change in every reformed system in Europe. It is kept because it is a significant degrading ritual and for that reason only. As I have pointed out, in a professional capacity, I have looked at reform systems in many countries in Europe and I noticed that this is always the last one to be changed because people hold on to it as a significant invasion of the prisoner's life.

It might be said that this new prison will eliminate these degrading practices for which Ireland has been rightly condemned by one Human Rights Commission report after another. It would be ridiculous not to welcome better provision as regards space or making it unnecessary for people to double up and have multiple occupancy of cells, which places prisoners at risk. However, we are discussing this as a planning matter without having discussed the alternatives to prison and the future structure of penal policy. We have not looked at the management system that would prevail or any of the guarantees which are necessary regarding the integrated use of the units to be formed on the site.

The idea that Thornton Hall will be used as a place of detention for refugees who enjoy guarantees under international law is absolutely outrageous. In addition, at a time when we are trying to reform the health sector, the idea that mental illness is to be linked in such a strong way with the notion of a prison setting is an outrageous and regressive act regarding not just penal policy, but also health. I appeal for a return of interest of all Members of the Oireachtas in prison welfare because the welfare of prisoners is one of the fundamental tests of rights. Those who care for prisoners deserve resources, but they also need to have the benefit of modern thinking, which is towards smaller prisons, where there is immediate care for illness and addictions and a real opportunity for prisoners to re-enter society. None of this is happening, except putting it out in the wilderness, shuttling people out and making it difficult to visit. This is to say nothing about the high level of illiteracy in prisons which is an indictment of everybody.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputies for the constructive remarks some of them have made. I do not accept that proper time has not been given to considering this matter. Of all the discussions about prison building in the State, this has been the longest running process of consultation. It started in late February, and the resolution has been before the House for over a month. I have spoken on it both in the House and at the Joint Committee for Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights on a number of occasions.

Regarding prison capacity, I accept that Deputies who represent areas near the proposed site are concerned. The reality, however, is there will be some concern no matter where a prison is built. Unfortunately, that is the nature of the world in which we live. However, the Government must provide proper facilities to which people such as Whitaker and Deputy Higgins, when he was on that alleged self-appointed committee, aspire. Since 1997, when the Government came into office, some 1,300 extra prison places have been provided. We must be given some credit for the fact that when we came to office there were 2,316 prison places and today there are just under 3,600. As we speak, work is at an extremely advanced stage on refurbishing or replacing existing cells in Portlaoise, Castlerea, Loughan House and Shelton Abbey. Work will soon start on a new block in Wheatfield to provide 144 extra places and an invitation to tender will have issued as regards the complex at Thornton Hall.

Deputy O'Rourke raised the issue of the community service scheme run by the probation and welfare service which is under review. A final draft of the report on the review will be available by the end of July which I will make available to the House.

Several Deputies, particularly Deputy Naughten, raised the issue of asylum seekers and deportees being kept at the proposed site. As I said at the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, there will be capacity to allow for the detention of deportees in this facility. However, it will be segregated detention and will facilitate their deportation. Currently, deportees are held at prisons such as Cloverhill where they are not segregated from the prison population. Strict time limits are in place as to how long a deportee can be held. Provision will not be made in the prison for asylum seekers per se. However, I cannot say some asylum seekers may not be imprisoned there for other offences, as they are obliged to comply with the State's criminal law.

The issue of public private partnerships was raised by several Deputies. As I said at the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, it has never been my modus operandi in any ministry I have held to participate or involve myself in contracting and I do not intend to change it in this ministry. However, I wish the public private partnership issue to be dealt with as expeditiously as possible to ensure the taxpayer gets a proper return with no overspend. The Opposition would be the first to object if there was an overspend on this project.

The invitation to tender specified that it was to be a design-build-maintain project. Any Member who suggests this is a move to privatise the running of the prison is living in cloud-cuckoo-land. I agree with Deputy Higgins who went into some detail on the American prison system. I would never envisage that happening in Ireland. The Irish Prison Service is excellent and I see no change in its position.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is what the prison is designed for.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Irish Prison Service and my Department have set out the detailed specifications of what is required for the prison. Some Members asked why the Office of Public Works was not involved as it was in other prison developments. This is not the same as any other prison development as it is a public private partnership.

Maintenance simply means the maintenance of the buildings and plant, nothing else. The Irish Prison Service will continue to have full operational responsibility for the running of the prison and interaction with prisoners.

The preferred bidder is a consortium of McNamara, Barclays Private Equity and GSL. It will build the prison and receive no payment until it is built and handed over in working order. Payments will be made on an annual basis for 25 years, at which stage the prison will become the sole responsibility of the Irish Prison Service.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Our children's futures are being mortgaged.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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As I said, I cannot go into the financial arrangements of the public private partnership. In compliance with strict Department of Finance guidelines, no financial information may be disclosed that would give an indication as to what the State may be willing to pay——

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is just like the Health Service Executive with no financial information available.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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——and what is the public sector benchmark.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy Burton, please allow the Minister to continue without interruption.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The disclosure of commercially sensitive information——

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is totally unaccountable.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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——could prejudice our position in the negotiation of future contracts. Obviously, there are significant moneys involved.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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This is typical of Fianna Fáil. The Minister was up every tree in north Dublin at one time but found nothing. He knows little about trees.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy Burton, please allow the Minister to continue without interruption.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Will Deputy Burton stop interrupting and pointing her finger at me?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy Burton, please allow the Minister to continue, as time is restricted.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Minister was up every tree in north Dublin and still found nothing.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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He turned a blind eye then.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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A prison development announced for the North of Ireland in December 2007 to house 800 inmates will cost £200 million. Regarding the Thornton Hall proposal, no contract has been signed and no information which could help a bidder in any way can be revealed. The public private partnership process requires strict financial assessment of both the project and bidders. The preferred bidder is assessed on an ongoing basis to ensure it has the operational and financial capacity to deliver the project. There is no indication of any problem in this regard. Any effort by Members on the other side of the House to link this consortium with some difficulties with Dublin City Council in another project is not comparing like with like.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We have heard that before. This is the Minister who was up every tree in north Dublin.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Would the Deputy have some manners?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Please allow the Minister to finish his contribution.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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There is a large tree-building operation at the site.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I hear this prattling from her ladyship. Would she, please, have some manners?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Would the Minister, please, allow me to regulate order? He has limited time. Every other Member was allowed to make a contribution without interruption.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Government made a decision that when the Thornton Hall site was purchased, 20 acres would be set aside for the Central Mental Hospital. There is agreement on both sides of the House that the existing hospital in Dundrum needs to be replaced with a new facility. A project team was established by the Department of Health and Children which recommended that a new site should be located with ready access to the M50. In the Government's opinion, the Thornton Hall site meets that criterion. There will be no extra cost to the Exchequer and the sale of the Dundrum site would release considerable sums for investment in the mental health service, the Cinderella of the health service for many years.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is shameful.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I do not accept any accusation of arrogance concerning the Dóchas Centre. As I said at the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, the Dóchas issue sticks out like a sore thumb. If one looks at the percentage of bed capacity over an extended period, there is gross overcapacity at the Dóchas Centre, over which I am not prepared to stand. Many of the measures advocated in the Baroness Corston report are being implemented in the centre. It has a successful regime which will be transferred to the Thornton Hall site. It must be remembered that the Corston report was prompted by suicide rates in the UK prison system. Suicide is not as prevalent among the Irish female prison population.

I would a hazard a guess that the former and current Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention — the late Mr. Justice Kinlen and Judge Michael Reilly — would accept that the regime proposed for the Thornton Hall site represents an acceptable way of providing extra capacity in the prisons. The Government is not prepared to stand over a position where there will be a revolving door in the prisons, as was exactly the case when Deputy Burton's party was in government. Then 20% of the prison population were on temporary release. The Government is not prepared to accept this.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Women felt much safer then.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Today, only 6% of prisoners are on temporary release. Shame on the Deputy for overseeing that regime.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The level of serious crime is on the increase. The Minister is incompetent.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Please, Deputy Burton. I call Deputy Charles Flanagan.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has admitted the State has never before engaged in a public private partnership process for the building of a prison. He has refused to explain the design element and sought comfort in the excuse that security issues are involved. Will he elaborate on this?

Several issues arise as regards the maintenance of the prison and require explanation. What will its maintenance by private builders mean in the running of the prison, contracts for works and services? How will this impact on the day to day operation of the prison? How can it be guaranteed for those in the prison, both prisoners and workers, that services in operation on the first day will not be allowed disintegrate, considering the Department or the Irish Prison Service would not appear to have any responsibility, engagement or involvement in the maintenance of this prison? This is a worrying aspect.

I refer to a matter that has not been mentioned, which is the provision of health services. Mountjoy Prison, St. Patrick's Institution and Dóchas are in close proximity to the Mater Hospital and there has always been an active engagement between them. Portlaoise Prison and the Midlands Prison are across the road from the Midlands Regional Hospital in Portlaoise and similarly there has been active engagement between the two. Having regard to what has been said earlier about the roads and the remoteness of the proposed prison location, what arrangements will be set in train to ensure a proper and adequate medical service for those who may wish to avail of it or for those who need it?

Regrettably the Minister did not answer my question as to the reason consideration was not given towards extending Dóchas. I recently visited a constituent in Dóchas who was imprisoned for a civil matter. She informed me that before she was transported by gardaí from her home in County Laois to the prison, she was visited on two occasions by two different officials of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food as she is a farmer. They inquired as to the welfare of her livestock and her cattle. This was a woman whose daughter is sitting the leaving certificate and whose other 12 year-old daughter has special needs but nobody from the social services called nor anyone from the health services nor any other Department, other than two officials expressing concern as to the welfare of the cattle. This is the type of prison regime under the Minister's stewardship. It is disgraceful that any woman or citizen of this State should be treated in such a manner. Why has the Minister opted not to extend Dóchas, which by all accounts is a prison of acceptable standard where best international practice obtains? He is now casting it into the wilderness by moving women out, against international best practice, into Thornton Hall.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The maintenance is to do with the building and is nothing to do with the running of the prison and the interaction with prisoners. The issue of having maintenance as part of the contract and the transferring of risk to the contractor is a core element of these PPPs. Over the 25 years of the contract period, the maintenance aspect is part of the transfer of risk to the contractor. It would be a very good contract for a contractor if there were to be no transfer of risk. The contract is to design, hand over and take responsibility for the maintenance of the building.

On the issue of health services, a medical wing will be situated in the prison. Blanchardstown hospital is close by and this will be the hospital to which people will go. While the prison system has been subject to criticism over the years which has been justified in many cases, the figures I quoted earlier show this Government has invested significantly in the provision of extra prison spaces. I understand an extra 80 staff were recently granted to the probation and welfare service to build up the service. I refer to the statistics provided at the joint committee meeting that approximately 10% of those who come before the courts are given custodial sentences. The responsibility for deciding who goes to prison is with the courts and has nothing to do with us. Our responsibility is to provide safe and secure facilities for prisoners. Successive Governments have overseen situations where there has been gross overcrowding in prisons. We are not prepared to allow this to happen and the investment has been made and will continue over the next number of years.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I presume colleagues saw last night that Jim Norton won a very well-merited Tony award. We remember him fondly from his role as the bishop in "Father Ted". The more I watch the new Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and given his obvious officer material, the more he reminds me of Bishop Len. He refuses to engage in the same language as the rest of us. We keep asking him questions and he keeps avoiding them.

I refer to this PPP. It is clear the Minister has not read Newton Emerson on PPPs and I would recommend that he should. We are trying to establish whether the Minister is satisfied that a developer involved in controversy, who has withdrawn from five contracts in the public sector, will have any implications for this building project. Three times today the Minister has told me, over-piously, "I do not involve myself in tendering". I am not asking him to involve himself in tendering so I advise him to get down off his episcopal pedestal and tell the House whether he is satisfied that Bernard McNamara will not do what he did in the city and walk out because we changed the design of some element of the prison and so leave us with a mess on our hands. This is a reasonable question and all I want is the answer.

We also want to know the answer to the question of the detention of youths at Thornton Hall. What is the Minister saying? Is he saying it is likely because Lusk is behind this project in planning terms, or so the Minister said today, that we are likely for a temporary period to detain youths at Thornton Hall? This would seem to me to envisage an extraordinarily long time span for the construction or reconstruction of Lusk. What is the Minister's position? Is he saying that in any event, it is not the medium-term intention that young people will be detained at Kilsallaghan? If I were Minister, I would ensure I was briefed on these questions.

The Minister dealt with Deputy O'Rourke when he said she had asked a question about the community service scheme. I was here listening to Deputy O'Rourke and she did not major in that subject; she asked the Minister why he was moving Dóchas. She gave the House a long peroration on why we should keep Dóchas where it is and he chose to ignore the lady.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I gave the answer.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I hope he is not insinuating that a senior Deputy like Deputy O'Rourke would come in here to make cluck-clucking noises that would go down well with one section of the community. I took her at face value. She made very forthright remarks about why a progressive development in penology ought not be shut down——

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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She described it as a plea.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I thank Deputy Flanagan. She made a plea to the Minister and he ignored her plea. Is it the economic consideration of the development value of the Mountjoy site that is causing the Minister to move Dóchas out to Kilsallaghan? I would appreciate a reply.

Has the OPW been commissioned to design and produce the Garda station promised by the Minister? I have sought information on this matter on a few occasions. Will the OPW do it and has it been commissioned to do so? When does the Minister envisage that the light will be put up outside the Garda station? Will he give us a ballpark time for that?

Earlier today, the Minister told me in committee that the prison at Thornton Hall is being designed by the OPW. Having received a note on it, the Minister corrected the record some time later, saying that the OPW is excluded. The OPW had gone into great detail to design a model for the refurbished Mountjoy and had acquired much familiarity with it so why has it been excluded? As we do not have time to go into the detailed matters of concern that residents raised, I ask the Minister to meet them to see if further progress can be made on those issues.

I also wish to raise the question of drugs treatment. We are told that 70% of prisoners either have a drink — many of us have that, but they have it more seriously — or a drugs problem. What will be done in the case of Kilsallaghan that will be different in terms of drug treatment and rehabilitation? Will the Minister describe that and put it on the record of the House, since this is the last opportunity we will get to do so?

Earlier today, I paraphrased Senator Joe O'Toole but did not have the precise quotation. I have the quote now, however. The Opposition has been confronted with a mysterious situation whereby we went into committee on this matter but could not find anybody who was promoting the project. The Minister was not there initially and his backbenchers disowned it. They also disowned any discussion of prison policy or reform in the prison service. Senator Joe O'Toole said: "If there was a survey, they would be 100% against it". Given the temperature out there, the Minister should sit down with the reasonable citizens to see if further progress can be made. They have presented us with geological evidence that indicates a waterlogging problem in the area. I do not have any knowledge about that, but surely the Minister can meet the residents to see if they can be assuaged on that point.

Will the Minister clarify something for me? Did he say there will be a 100-bed unit for the detention of persons not indigenous to this island? Will he explain that to me? Who exactly is it intended might be detained there? Are they immigrants who will not lawfully be resident in the State under the new Immigration and Residence Bill when it is enacted? Are they some potential asylum seekers? I still do not understand that. The Minister referred to deportees, but can we have an explanation?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I suppose if anyone wants lectures on piety, they do not have to go too far beyond looking at the Deputy, who is on a pedestal every day of the week in this House.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I am glad the Minister has not changed. He will be in for four very hot years if he continues like that.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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He fell off his pedestal after the election, as I told him recently at the committee.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I did not fall at all.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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As I told the Deputy earlier at the committee, I have no information to suggest anything other than that the present consortium will be able to meet the requirements under the tendering process. There are other bidders and if the present preferred bidder is not able to come up to the requirements on this, the other bidders would come into the loop.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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There is no preferred bidder.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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No contracts have been signed but, as I said, there is a preferred bidder.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Why would we change it then?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Depending on what happens, flowing hopefully from the consent the House gives under the terms of the resolution before us, those negotiations can be finalised with the preferred bidder.

I have been as frank as I can concerning the Lusk issue. The preferred location for under-18 male prisoners would be in this facility but if it is not up and running we will be able to use the modular sections of the proposed Thornton prison, which would be up and running sooner, if that works out, than the implementation of the Lusk improvements.

As regards Dóchas, I have said many times that it makes no sense to retain a prison on a site in Mountjoy which is inadequate——

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Why?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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——when we are building a brand new facility with plenty of opportunity for implementing segregated male and female prison locations within that site. It makes absolutely no sense from a financial or operational viewpoint. The strong advice is that, despite the fact that the Dóchas centre in itself has worked well, because of the current over-capacity there it is imperative to move to Thornton as quickly as possible in order to provide the proper facilities for female prisoners.

The OPW has been asked to implement the design for a Garda station. It is envisaged that the Garda station will be built possibly even before the final handing over of the prison.

As regards the OPW being excluded, the Irish Prison Service and my Department have engaged eminent consultants with international expertise in building prisons, which is the template under which this is being done. There is no necessity for the OPW to be involved in that, particularly in the context of it being a PPP.

I gave a commitment to Deputy O'Brien in committee that I would be willing to establish a liaison committee between the residents directly affected, prison service officials and Fingal County Council concerning the implementation of some issues, including problems such as flooding, which people have referred to. Proper liaison must be assured so that residents can gain access to the enhanced services that will be available due to the building of this prison.

There is a strong emphasis on drug rehabilitation within the prison service. The drug strategy that was launched back in May 2006 will be extended, including the recruitment of nurses and psychologists. There are 24 dedicated addiction counsellors as well as other prison staff, which will be enhanced at the Thornton location.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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More of the same.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The 100-bed unit which could be used for people who have come to the notice of the immigration authorities, purely and simply concerns deportees, people who are awaiting deportation. In some existing prisons they mix with other prisoners. This will be a segregated location but there will not be a separate location for asylum seekers as a method of detention for them, other than those who come to this country without permission to remain in the State under the existing legislation. As Deputies are aware, the proposed legislation is strict in respect of who is lawfully and not lawfully in the State. As I indicated, it will also be used to house those awaiting deportation.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The proposal is a farce. As time is running out, I will confine my contribution to asking a small number of the questions raised by residents. We tried to glean from the Minister whether he is willing to move on these issues. Will the Minister supply residents with the report he cited in committee today from engineering consultants who stated that any local flooding was probably caused by insufficient maintenance of existing land drains? This would allow residents to refute its contents.

If the Minister alters in any way the proposals before us — there is no point in consulting residents unless he proposes to address some of their concerns — will he revert to the House or are the proposals to which he hopes the House will sign up tonight a fait accompli? Will Deputies have an opportunity to discuss the matter again in the event of amendments being made to the proposals?

Can the Minister guarantee that the wall will not be more than 7.2 m in height? In the application the figure is preceded by the word "approximately", which I have never seen used in any type of planning application. What will be the exact height of the wall — 8 m, 7.2 m or 6 m? These are simple questions.

Is the Minister willing to consider reducing the sterile area or cordon sanitaire from the proposed distance of 120 ft. or 40 m? I do not understand the reason two walls are required, given the proposal to fit electronic surveillance systems and so forth. Erecting the second wall closer to the first wall would at least allow residents a little more breathing space. What will be the height of the control tower about which the Minister forgot to tell the committee? Will it be two, three or four storeys?

Deputies referred to Dóchas. In the event that the facility at Lusk is not built, would it be appropriate to allow young people who are incarcerated to be housed close to their families in the Dóchas facility? Has the Minister considered this and other options? From the information supplied to me, it appears he has not considered options other than the Ceaucescu type proposal made by the former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Mr. Michael McDowell.

Will the 100-bed segregated unit be left empty pending the day when 100 people are picked up and placed in it? Is Bernard McNamara still a member of the Fianna Fáil Party and does his membership of the party have any implications in terms of being a preferred bidder?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is not appropriate to refer to persons outside the House in that fashion.

Michael Kennedy (Dublin North, Fianna Fail)
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It has no more implications than the fact that the landowner is a member of Fine Gael.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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On the flooding issue——

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What did Deputy Kennedy say?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I called the Minister.

Michael Kennedy (Dublin North, Fianna Fail)
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The owner of the land is a member of Fine Gael.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I ask the Minister to proceed without interruption. Deputy Kennedy should allow me to organise business in the House.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I hope the Deputy is not starting to climb trees.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should not go there.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Minister was the tree man.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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He who lives in glass houses——

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The time for this debate is restricted.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy does not have to look too far in her own party. I did not go around touting for lobbyists.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Minister did not have to.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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He was the tree man.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I ask the Minister not to be distracted and to answer the questions posed.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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On the issue of flooding, in the context of the liaison committee I have no doubt the Irish Prison Service and consultants will provide information from the report on the relevant aspects of flooding. I ask everyone, including Deputies from the constituency, to exhort those who have property in the vicinity to allow access, if required, to clean out drains.

The concerns raised by residents relate to operational issues. I have given a commitment to establish a liaison committee which could deal with their concerns. I do not envisage any major amendments being made to the proposals, nor do I envisage it being necessary to revert to the House in that respect.

On the cordon sanitaire, we are not prepared to reduce its size from the existing distance of 40 m. However, in certain locations where it is contiguous to houses, it has been narrowed to allay some of the fears of residents. I assure Deputy Ó Snodaigh that I have been very up-front on the issue of the height of the buildings. I indicated at previous committee meetings that every building will be two storeys in height, apart from the tower, which will be three storeys high. The facility will not be an obtrusive building from a height point of view.

The 100-bed unit will be held vacant in the early stages but may well over time be required for extra prison space. As I stated, it is normal practice to have a facility of this type. It is better that anyone who may be deported be placed in a specific location in a detention centre where he or she will not mix with the normal prisoner population.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I repeat my request to the Minister to publish the economic and business case in respect of the public private partnership. Will he explain the concept of the transfer of risk, given that the Department is the guaranteed purchaser of the services of the PPP and our children and grandchildren will be paying for it in 25 years? The Minister is most famous for having spent considerable time up trees in north County Dublin. When he was up those trees, how much of Thornton did he see?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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As we know, he was looking the other way.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's question shows the paucity of her arguments.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I have not called the Minister.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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When the veil falls, the reality is she does not want the prison in her constituency.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is a very weak answer.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I have three brief questions.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy must put them in three sentences if they are to be answered.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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The only move the Minister made to address local concerns was the initiative regarding trees. Will he give a costing for this measure? I have asked this question four times. Will the men and women who may be deported be housed in a single complex or in the men's and women's wings of the facility, respectively? Where will asylum applicants be held in detention — if they must be held in detention — if not at the Thornton Hall site?

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister referred to counsellors and nurses. Will they be employed by the Health Service Executive or Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, given that the former is operating a recruitment ban? On the Central Mental Hospital, I cited the arguments made by a number of robust organisations. What does the Minister have to say to them? Is he taking on board their arguments or will he proceed with the current plans?

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The professionals to whom the Deputy referred will be employed by the Irish Prison Service rather than the HSE.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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That is a relief.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte does not do himself any credit. In what respect is it a relief?

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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There is more hope for the project.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I must bring the debate to a conclusion. The Minister has one minute remaining.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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As I indicated, those subject to deportation orders would be held in a segregated unit where males and females would be——

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Held together.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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They could be segregated, if required.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Within the one building.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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They would be within the prison, but totally segregated from the existing population.