Dáil debates

Wednesday, 28 May 2008

Ceisteanna — Questions

Official Engagements.

10:30 am

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent visit to the United States; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10742/08]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the US President, Mr. George W. Bush; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10743/08]

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the outcome of his visit to the United States over the St. Patrick's Day period 2008. [10895/08]

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his visit to the United States. [11533/08]

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach the main issues discussed at his meeting with President Bush in Washington on St. Patrick's Day 2008; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11858/08]

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 6: To ask the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his meetings and discussions with political leaders during his visit to the United States. [11859/08]

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 7: To ask the Taoiseach the discussions he had with political figures in the United States regarding the position of undocumented Irish in that country; his assessment, in view of these discussions, of the prospects of them having their positions regularised; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11860/08]

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Question 8: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his discussions with the US President, Mr. George Bush, in Washington recently; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11905/08]

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 8, inclusive, together.

In recent months, my predecessor, the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, visited the United States to participate in the traditional ceremonies celebrating St. Patrick's Day and to address a joint sitting of the Houses of Congress. In the course of these visits, he met with President Bush, where they discussed the issue of the undocumented Irish as well as a range of international issues.

He also met with the Speaker of the House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi, and with Congressman Richie Neal and the Friends of Ireland group, Governor Deval Patrick and with Senator Hillary Clinton, while he spoke by telephone to Senator Barak Obama. He also met with Senator Ted Kennedy in the course of his visits and I know that this House would wish to convey our best wishes to Senator Kennedy at this time.

11:00 am

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am sure we all wish Senator Kennedy all the best in his challenge to deal with a serious health problem.

What are the new Taoiseach's views on the undocumented Irish? I am aware of the complexity of this matter. The Kennedy-McCain Bill fell, along with other attempts in this area. I am also conscious of the fact that the American presidential elections put a constraint upon members of the US Congress who might wish to put forward views or legislative plans in respect of undocumented persons in the US.

Does the Taoiseach agree that, following the unanimous adoption of a motion in the House, we should pursue a bilateral arrangement between the US and Ireland for young people from the Twenty-six Counties and from Northern Ireland in a reciprocal fashion? This country has had a special relationship with the US for 200 years in economic, cultural, political and legal terms. Other countries seem to have acquired facilities for worker visas on a reciprocal basis. The Taoiseach will be aware that it is more difficult for a young American to get authorisation to live and work in Ireland than the other way round.

The Irish who are currently undocumented in the US do not want an amnesty and a free pass to continue to live there. They want a legal and political route by which they can earn their keep legitimately in the US. There are many cases of people who are married, pay their social security, raise their families and contribute to the American economy, but are still undocumented. As a consequence, they are restricted from coming back here due to family circumstances. It is a particularly sensitive and sore problem. It appears that the commitment of the Government faded in the last few months of Deputy Ahern's time as Taoiseach. I would like the Taoiseach to bring this to a new level and raise it to the right level when he commences discussions with his US counterparts. The Taoiseach should also build on the platform given unanimously by all parties and Members that we should pursue a bilateral, reciprocal arrangement operating north and south with the US in the interests of dealing with the challenges both countries face in the next 25 years.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is unfair to the former Taoiseach for Deputy Kenny to characterise his efforts as having faded in recent times before he left office. That is certainly not true and there is no basis for making the claim.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There is no basis for making the claim. I have read the papers relating to meetings and representations he made on this issue.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He said they were looking into pints of stout in New York when talking about this.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There is no basis for making the claim. Deputy Kenny is aware that the domestic political situation in the US means this is a divisive and difficult issue on which to get a comprehensive approach because the US Congress and Government have sought a comprehensive approach to resolve this. It has not been possible to resolve it thus far despite the bipartisan efforts of people of such eminence as Senators Kennedy and McCain, two of the most influential Senators in the US Congress. They were unable to get sufficient support in the Houses of Congress for their proposals or for amendments suggested to their proposals. Despite the difficult background against which Deputy Kenny acknowledges we have had to operate, all the evidence has been about advocacy and seeking to present a persuasive case but has culminated in serious efforts being made within Congress by the most influential people in Congress to address the issue in a way the Irish Government would like to see it addressed on behalf of our citizens who are undocumented. That is a fairer reflection of the situation to date. I do not accept the suggestion that the former Taoiseach was in dereliction of duty in any way.

Up to the discussion the former Taoiseach had with President Bush, when he had the honour of addressing both Houses of Congress, I know how assiduously and strongly he put the case from reports of those meetings. Unfortunately, the indication was that it would be difficult to deal with this matter unless there was a comprehensive approach. The former Taoiseach continued in the course of those discussions, as I will continue in my office, to seek to persuade the US Government to examine this issue from a number of vantage points in an effort to resolve the matter, even if one must acknowledge and respect the present policy position regarding immigration and the challenges it provides for the US domestically.

The former Taoiseach outlined the position of the undocumented Irish in the US. He expressed the view that in the absence of a comprehensive package a reciprocal arrangement between Ireland and the US should be possible and should be examined. This could provide the means of allowing Irish people to work legally in the US. The president was emphatic that, in the absence of a comprehensive package, it would be very difficult to come to an arrangement that would give an advantage to one over any other group. We hope that through further engagement between our officials and the US Administration, progress could be made on a bilateral agreement to allow Irish people to work legally in the US and for US citizens to work here.

Since I became Taoiseach I met with Niall O'Dowd, the chairman of the Irish Lobby for Immigration Reform, on 22 May. We discussed the issue of the undocumented Irish in a comprehensive fashion. I thank him for that discussion. I reiterated the Government's strong commitment to find a resolution of the situation we are facing. We want to see the position of the undocumented regularised and a beneficial system of bilateral migration arrangements between Ireland and the US put in place.

On Monday I met with a congressional delegation led by Senators Patrick Leahy, Thad Cochran and Richard Shelby, and we had detailed discussion on the issue. I am grateful to all our friends in Congress, across both parties and the US Administration for their help. I appreciate the efforts they are making on our behalf, and will continue to make even in this election year, to see if there is any means by which we can make progress on the matter.

I agree the unanimous resolution of the House is an excellent position for any Government to have. That unanimity should manifest itself in not denigrating the efforts of the Government in trying to achieve the outcome.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I beg to differ with the Taoiseach. His predecessor stated that this concern with those who are undocumented amounted to what he described as pub talk in a lot of cases. This was taken as a deep insult by people from this country working is the US who find themselves in a legal limbo because they are undocumented. The Government got into some degree of tension with the Irish Lobby for Immigration Reform. When that group went to Washington in March, the secretary dealing with immigration reform was not aware of the House having passed the unanimous motion.

What are the vantage points to which the Taoiseach refers when he states he wants to pursue this issue from a number of vantage points? I will help the Taoiseach if I can. Those who I met in the Bronx and Yonkers and those who have e-mailed me want a legitimate structure by which they can earn a right to continue to live in the US. That is the problem, which is part of a bigger picture when there are millions more streaming into the US from many countries. We have a special relationship with the US for all of those reasons. It is not a case of dealing with people who want to go to the US in the future for a short-term working career and having a reciprocal arrangement but dealing with the 50,000 who are currently there, married or single, and contributing to the US economy and who want a legitimate facility to continue to live there because that is their wish. That is where the political effort from the Government should be.

The Taoiseach can rest assured of the assistance of this side of the House in building on the platform that was passed by the House. I would like to see the Taoiseach make this an international priority for his term in office. This would be in the interests of both countries to have this dealt with in a way that will stand the test of time for those who are currently there and for those who may want to go to the US in the future. It should be done in reciprocal fashion.

The bilateral tax arrangements with the US are due for review next year. Barack Obama has made comments about the repatriation of American profits and taxes. Is the Taoiseach concerned about the future in the context of foreign direct investment from the US? What issues will arise at the review of the bilateral tax arrangements? Does he expect to have discussions about that in the near future? Will he meet President Bush before he leaves office?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The questions tabled relate to the recent visit of the former Taoiseach to Washington and his visit on St. Patrick's Day. The remit of the questions does not extend to the supplementary questions being asked by Deputy Kenny.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is the Ceann Comhairle's birthday. He gave me a little bit of flexibility.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not mind. Any room to manoeuvre we get, the better.

Photo of Pat BreenPat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach never wished the Ceann Comhairle a happy birthday.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is important we deal with the Administration on the basis of settled policy at the time. There are many things said in the context of electoral contests. One has to listen to that and note it. There have been statements, which were they to be followed through in a certain fashion, would cause us some worry. We must allow the domestic contest to proceed to its finality and then deal with whatever Administration is honoured to serve the people of the United States following the election in November and from January next when the changeover takes place. We will deal with the issues as they arise. These types of matters have arisen before and through good diplomatic efforts we have been able to ensure that worst case scenarios never came to pass. There is a particular atmosphere in the States in regard to these matters which ebb and flow from time to time. We must await the outcome of the election. There is no point speculating on these issues in the present context.

Regarding the Deputy's first supplementary, I will, as I stated, do all I can. It is not a matter of contention between the parties as to what the objective of our efforts should be. Committees of the House maintain contact with their opposite numbers in Congress, the House of Representatives and Senate. Members of the House from all parties have taken a continuing interest in this matter and have built up a level of expertise that can be utilised through our committee system in terms of organising visits to ensure this matter remains to the forefront.

Our ambassador in Washington and his staff continue to seek support in this regard and to explain the creative ideas to which the US might be amenable in an effort to resolve this problem to our satisfaction. As the Deputy will be aware, the political conditions have not existed to resolve this matter in a way we would like to see it resolved. We must respect the situation, work around it and continue to seek other means through which we can resolve matters. We need to explore further with them and to advocate the proposal in respect of a bilateral working visa arrangement while recognising that we are not unique in this situation. We will also contend that the size of our problem is such as to make it more manageable than would be the case in respect of other ethnic groups. We are all aware through our constituency work of constituents who are in this unfortunate situation.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I join with the Taoiseach and Deputy Kenny in conveying to Senator Ted Kennedy the good wishes of the Labour Party in his battle to overcome his current illness.

The questions being discussed relate to the former Taoiseach's visit to the United States and his meetings with President Bush and other American leaders. In his meetings with President Bush, did the former Taoiseach raise the issue of the war in Iraq, in particular the concern of Irish people in regard to the continuing slaughter of civilians in Iraq? If so, what is the view of the US Administration on its continuing engagement in Iraq and does it have any plans to withdraw from Iraq?

A report published today by Amnesty International relates to the use of Shannon Airport for the transport of prisoners to centres of torture in third countries. On previous occasions, taoisigh and Ministers for Foreign Affairs sought and obtained diplomatic assurances from United States leaders that Shannon Airport was not being used in this way. Did the former Taoiseach raise this issue with President Bush and if so, did he obtain from him an assurance in regard to the use of Shannon Airport?

I appreciate President Bush's remaining time in office is relatively short. Does the Taoiseach propose to meet or communicate with President Bush or the remaining candidates in the presidential election, again acknowledging that people engaged in an election campaign have their own priorities? Will the Taoiseach take any new initiative in respect of the undocumented Irish given the need to pursue the motion passed by the House in this regard?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will respond to the Deputy's second question first. As I stated, I will take every opportunity to progress the efforts not alone of Government but of the Oireachtas as a whole in regard to resolving the issue of the undocumented Irish. While I do not wish to repeat myself, political conditions in recent times have not been particularly opportune to advance this case. The domestic political agenda in the United States has taken hold. This is a particularly sensitive issue in an election year as one would expect. That being said, we will not be deterred in our efforts. We will raise the issue diplomatically and politically on every occasion possible. As I stated, I have already used two occasions in the past week, in meetings with people who have influence or an interest in this matter, to bring to their attention our wishes to work constructively, diplomatically and discreetly with the US Administration, the State Department, Senators and those who would take an initiative on our behalf in Congress to try to advance some of the more recent ideas put forward. It is generally recognised that a comprehensive approach to immigration is not possible during the tenure of this Congress despite the high profile involvement of some of the most influential US Senators and public representatives in Congress. That is the current position. I will do all I can to advance the issue.

On the Taoiseach's discussions with President Bush, obviously, they discussed a range of issues, including the situation in Iraq. The President indicated the US was determined to succeed and to work with President Malachi and others to bring security and stability to Iraq as quickly as possible. It has been our view that this is not a matter that can be resolved in a security context alone. While it is important, as security provides the prospect of stability, political factions within Iraq must work together in the interests of the people to provide that stability and in the interests of their being able to manage and conduct their own affairs as an independent country as soon as possible. It is also important that there are stable and positive relations between the Iraqi Government and its immediate neighbours. The neighbourhood must not be an area in which forces of instability can continue to operate or where governments would be inimical to the objectives of the government in Iraq to pursue its objective of providing security and stability for the people of Iraq. This would have been the nature of the exchange between the US President and the former Taoiseach on the issue.

The issue of extraordinary rendition was not raised in the context of the discussions that took place. I make the point however that the Government has set out at length its position on this including in its response to the report of the Irish Human Rights Commission last December. We are unequivocally opposed to extraordinary rendition and have made this clear to all concerned. Far from regarding US assurances as worthless, we are fully satisfied on the basis of the legal advice available to us, that we are entitled under international law to rely upon them. The assurances given to Ireland and confirmed at the highest level are of a particular clarity and comprehensiveness. They state unequivocally that no prisoners have been subject to extraordinary rendition through Ireland, nor would they be without our agreement.

It remains the case that there is no evidence, nor even a single concrete or credible allegation, that any extraordinary rendition has ever taken place through Ireland. The Garda has all the powers it needs to investigate any allegations that may be made, including the power to search aircraft on the basis of reasonable suspicion. A number of such allegations have been investigated and have led to no action. It is also the case that no other state has adopted the inspection measures of the type which some have recommended.

The Government has been open and active on this issue. The previous Minister for Foreign Affairs is one of only two foreign Ministers to appear before the European Parliament committee investigating the matter. We have also taken the lead in calling for international action to reform the regulation of civil aviation.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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As the Taoiseach stated, the Government relies on and accepts the diplomatic assurances it receives from the United States in respect of extraordinary rendition at Shannon. As the Taoiseach is aware, this is a position that was criticised not only by the Labour Party but also by bodies such as Amnesty International. What surprises me about the Taoiseach's response is, given that the Government places such high value on these diplomatic assurances, it appears his predecessor did not seek such assurances at his last meeting with President Bush.

I am not clear about the Taoiseach's plans in respect of meeting President Bush or Senators McCain, Obama and Clinton. I appreciate the Senators have other things on their minds. I understand Senator Obama has an Offaly connection. Is Offaly big enough for the Taoiseach and Senator Obama?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will invite him to the all-Ireland final.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It could be against Wicklow.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That would be fun. I would enjoy it. We will have the last laugh this time.

Will the Taoiseach confirm that the shamrock was in a Waterford Crystal vase? Will it be in Waterford Crystal next year?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I certainly hope so.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Will it be made in Ireland?

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I certainly hope so. We wish the company well with its restructuring proposals.

Deputy Gilmore asked whether I will meet President Bush. The honest answer is that I do not know. He will visit Northern Ireland and I do not know whether I will have an opportunity to meet him then. I met him on a couple of occasions previously. I met him when I was Minister for Foreign Affairs at the US-EU meeting in Dromoland Castle a number of years ago. I also met Senator McCain in my capacity as Minister for Foreign Affairs and I met Senator Clinton. I have no plans to meet them. I do not think I am top of the agenda at present.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I do not wish to go over much of this again, but given that at least on one occasion the former Taoiseach offered little hope of success in relation to the lobby regarding immigration reform in the United States, will the Taoiseach give us a sense of what his expectations are in relation to the current lobby in which he and the Irish Government are directly engaged? What hope of success does he hold out to give some expectation to people not only in the United States but also their families and communities at home? Will he spell out in some way what he envisages as being the end result, the net product, of the collective effort of all concerned? Does the current presidential election year in the United States offer opportunities that might not have been openly on offer in previous years?

Yesterday, I raised with the Taoiseach the issue of extraordinary rendition flights and he offered a customary stonewall response to me in relation to US military aircraft at Shannon. Given the apparent unwillingness of the Government to alter the current arrangement of the use of Shannon, has a Taoiseach ever put to a US President or someone at any other level in the US Administration, the prospect of the actual use of Garda searches as a means of establishing the factual position on the use of Shannon by US military aircraft to transfer prisoners from one destination to another and, in the context of my question yesterday against the backdrop of the current international conference here addressing certain munitions, that these flights would not also be used to transport munitions on whose use and manufacture this country is involved in seeking a ban?

Will the Taoiseach take a more definite position on this matter, particularly in light of the report published yesterday by Amnesty International which indicted the Government on its failure to act heretofore and its reliance entirely on the oral assurance of the Bush regime in the United States, which is not sufficient guarantee or an assurance for a significant swathe of Irish opinion which I believe is well within a majority.

Photo of Brian CowenBrian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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On the question on the undocumented Irish, I indicated to Deputies Kenny and Gilmore as much as I can state on what my approach will be and my determination to continue to seek a solution, emphasising that we need agreement from the other side which has certain concerns and issues to be dealt with in the context of considering our requests or representations. We must respect that and if we do not do so we will not make much headway. If we respect it we have some chance of making some headway. I have always found successive United States Administrations to be very helpful to this country in many ways. My reciprocal commitment in respect of that relationship will not be selective. If one wants to have influence one must be prepared to reciprocate.

In respect of the hope we can give the undocumented Irish for the future, we simply say to them that we will work diligently, hard and conscientiously on their behalf, trying to maintain friendships and influence, and work with people who are prepared to help us in Congress and Government to see how we can resolve this matter to everyone's satisfaction. It is not simply an issue of demand, it is an issue of recognising that the status of the people involved is unsatisfactory for themselves, from the Government's point of view and from the point of view of the US. We are trying to find a means by which we can regularise that situation. I have always felt that if we want to do that, unlike others, I would not be selective in my approach.

On the other matter, which is totally unrelated, we are simply adopting the same policy that has been adopted for 50 years by successive Governments. The Deputy is requesting me to change that policy, but that was considered in the House and was rejected. In a previous response I outlined to Deputy Gilmore the powers of the Garda in this matter.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply, however unsatisfactory.