Dáil debates
Wednesday, 28 May 2008
Pupil-Teacher Ratio: Motion (Resumed)
7:00 pm
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I wish to share time with Deputy Joan Burton.
This is an important motion, although it is focused on a particular aspect of the current crisis in primary education. The crisis has been caused by the trigger that has resulted in a number of schools automatically losing a teacher because their pupil numbers have dropped a very small margin. It underlines the crisis that faces primary education, one that has been growing for some time. As recently as 1995, the then Minister for Education who reformed so much of the system, Niamh Bhreathnach, published a White Paper. Within the confines of that paper we speculated on how we would manage a decline in the number of primary school pupils. There are 450,000 primary school pupils in 3,300 schools. According to the most recent census forecast, by 2025, 17 years from now, that population will grow to a maximum of 650,000 and will have a minimum of an extra 100,000 on the current figures. I do not refer only to the outlying growth areas around the greater Dublin area, Cork or Limerick. Existing schools are confronted by growth within their areas because of the surge in population. Only 10% of the growth is being generated by newcomer children, whose parents are coming to this country to work in our economy and who we are trying to integrate into our society.
The current system of operation in the Department of Education and Science is no longer fit for purpose. Due to commitments related to the Lisbon treaty I could not attend last night's debate but I read the Minister's reply to my colleague in Fine Gael with responsibility for education, Deputy Brian Hayes. Will the Minister tell someone in the Department of Education and Science to turn off the word processor and stop telling us how good he is and about the increases in moneys? The increases are not catching up or maintaining pace with the increases in the pupil population. I invite anyone in the Chamber and the Visitors Gallery to read the reply. If the Minister does not provide the increase in teachers' pay and relate this to the increase in spending and inflation, the real value of any increase must be considerably discounted. The primary education system of allocation of teachers does not work. For teachers of mainstream classes including children with special needs the challenging behaviour of the pupil cannot be accommodated because the special educational needs officer report and the psychological report has not been accepted and therefore the special needs assistant has not be allocated. This means primary school teachers must cope with pupils of challenging behaviour that is disruptive to the rest of the pupils.
The promise on pupil-teacher ratios, which the Government has reneged on, has become more critical. There is a dispute among educationalists as to whether pupil-teacher ratio is the be all and end all. In principle and as a parent I accept the idea of mainstreaming children with disability but it places an additional burden on primary school teachers if the numbers are kept high. The automatic guillotine that kicks in is crude and disruptive to schools and requires all sorts of internal management.
The Minister suggested yesterday that this has nothing to do with the Department of Education and Science, that individual schools make choices and that having 30 children in one classroom and 20 in another is a decision made by the school for which the Minister has no responsibility. That is dumping responsibility for the Minister's decision on the boards of management and the principals who struggle to provide education in the classroom as well as finding money to pay for water charges.
I welcome the appointment of the Minister and invite him to return to the drawing board and examine the crisis he has inherited. As The Irish Times stated a few days ago, we cannot have a knowledge-based economy in the future, with millions spent on PhDs if our primary schools are so decrepit that the Minister cannot tell me how many prefab classrooms we have in our primary school system, two months after I asked the question.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I thank Deputy Brian Hayes for raising this issue. Just two weeks ago the ESRI published a report suggesting that in future our economic well-being will depend more than anything else on our investment in education, because rather than selling our manual labour, we will sell our brain power. Children are entitled to learn in classes of reasonable size and in classrooms that are orderly, unstressed and uncrowded. Because Fianna Fáil has reneged on its promise to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio to 27:1 per class next September, 28 schools will lose one or more teachers.
I refer to two schools on this list, one urban and one rural. St. Francis Xavier School in Roselawn, Castleknock, in Dublin 15 is threatened with the loss of one to two teachers next September. This school is both successful and popular. More than 25% of the pupils are international students, many with specific English language coaching requirements. In the junior school, from which the senior school pupils are recruited, the proportion of international students is even higher. This school is now faced with the loss of two teachers. Had the Minister for Education and Science and Fianna Fáil in Government honoured promises to cut class sizes, they would not be losing staff.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Because of the number of international students, there are a number of additional posts in the school, particularly for language and resource teaching. The school is one hour short of the 22 hours required for a learning resource teacher. The bungling and red tape between the HSE and the Department of Education and Science means the school cannot get the extra hour that has been approved in principle.
This problem is not exclusive to our cities. Scoil Naomh Pádraig in Ballymurphy in County Carlow is a rural school that expects to take in 11 extra pupils next September. It too is facing the loss of its third teacher because of the Minister's U-turn on class sizes. Both of these schools expect a significant expansion in pupil intake for next September, yet they will be penalised with respect to last September's figures. This is no way to plan the educational future of our children, the teachers who work in our schools or the parents who turn out to support our schools. These are just two of the 28 schools with similar stories. This is no way to plan schooling in urban areas and no way to support rural schools.
I regret the Green Party is absent from the debate.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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When in Opposition, the Green Party made many fine speeches and contributions, with which I agreed. In some cases their policies were included in the programme for Government. What is it all worth if schools are thrown into crisis, facing disruption in rural areas through splitting classes? In the crowded classroom environment in rapidly developing urban areas such as west Dublin, Meath and Kildare, one third of classes have more than 31 pupils and some have up to 35.
This is another issue the Minister might address. The Minister's predecessor buried the statistics on class sizes. As a former teacher in this appointment, can the Minister release the up to date figures for class sizes for every school in the country? These figures are collected by school principals and are submitted to the Department. The Government has problems with IT but counting the number of children in each class and releasing the information is not difficult.
Margaret Conlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to share time with Deputies Thomas Byrne, Mary White, Charlie O'Connor and Michael Kennedy.
Margaret Conlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I am delighted to have an opportunity to contribute to this debate. I congratulate my colleague, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, on his elevation to the position of Minister for Education and Science. I firmly believe that one gets what one deserves. I believe this elevation is richly deserved. Based on his track record, I am sure he will carry out his duties to the very best of his ability and in an admirable fashion. I wish him well.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I take it there is no school in Monaghan.
Margaret Conlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I remain hopeful.
The Minister spoke at length last night about the positive difference we have made to the education system. I believe we have delivered and will continue to do so. The Government has delivered 2,000 extra teachers in less than two years. Some €9.3 billion is being provided for education this year, a 70% increase since 2002. This level of investment is bringing tangible results via €600 million for school buildings and a doubling of the 2004 expenditure on special education.
The programme for Government provides a clear commitment to increase the number of primary teachers by at least 4,000. This will enable us to make further progress in reducing class sizes. It further sets out a revised basis for the 2010-11 school year of an allocation based on an average of 24 pupils. I welcome and look forward to this being realised. We have always placed education at the top of our agenda and we recognise the need to invest at every stage of the education process to ensure we have well-educated young adults who develop the necessary social and academic skills required to live in an ever-changing world. Without teachers, this process cannot be completed.
It is fundamental that it go forth from this debate that there will be a net increase of almost 500 teachers this year. Five times as many schools are expected to employ an additional teacher due to an increase in enrolments. The Opposition's political opportunism belies the underlying issue of its wanting us to give preferential treatment to some schools. This would have the knock-on effect of having no objective criteria for staffing schedules in our schools. A school which believes it has been treated unfairly under the schedule has a right to appeal. The appeals board operates independently of the Department of Education and Science.
There are many issues and challenges facing the education system going forward. For example, we must meet the challenge of increasing numbers of new children entering our primary and secondary schools. The creation of the ministry for integration policy under the stewardship of Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Conor Lenihan, is a positive step in this regard.
The Government has surpassed its commitment to provide 1,800 language support teachers in primary and secondary schools. Children whose first language is not English are at an inherent disadvantage and the Government is committed to neutralising this weakness and allowing them to flourish and achieve their potential. Furthermore, this diversity in our student population will, I believe, strengthen the education of our Irish children. The intangible benefits of acceptance of multiculturalism or expanding one's knowledge of different languages will lead to a stronger, diverse and more vibrant school population.
A similar noteworthy point is that there has seen significant targeted investment in additional supports for children and young people from disadvantaged communities, and rightly so. In 2008, some €800 million is being provided for such initiatives at all levels of the education system, a 75% increase on the figure for 2003. Under the DEIS action plan, primary schools serving the most disadvantaged communities will benefit from a wide range of extra resources including smaller classes, school meals, intensive literacy and numeracy programmes and additional day-to-day funding. They are also in receipt of home-school-community liaison and school completion services. This is the reality of what Fianna Fáil in Government is doing on the ground.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy forgot about the Green Party.
Margaret Conlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, and the Progressive Democrats.
We are putting resources into disadvantaged areas which is what we must do.
Another factor which contributes to improved student outcome is basing our teaching promotions on merit. Promotions based on seniority alone should be left in the last century where they once flourished.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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That is yesterday's speech.
Margaret Conlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Hard-working, diligent teachers must be provided with a pathway of progression in their workplace. Access to appropriate support and training, together with a constant drive to upgrade, update and continually improve as a teacher, will lead to a more rewarding career and to more effective outcomes for our young people passing through the education system. We must continue to attract the right people into teaching and, when we have done so, we must continue to provide them with every available opportunity for professional development to ensure they are effective educators. Teacher quality is the single most important factor in improving outcomes. The number of teachers relative to students is but one of many variables affecting the quality of education provision.
We must acknowledge that we cannot work or seek further funding for education in a vacuum. It is not possible in the current economic climate to solve all the outstanding issues with the stroke of a pen. We must cut our cloth according to our measure. The programme for Government is a five-year programme and one cannot realistically expect all goals to be achieved in the first year. We are experiencing a changed economic climate as are many economies at this time. We know that economies go through cyclical phases and Ireland is no different. It is important we manage the challenges that this presents.
No Department or Minister will ever have enough money and this Minister for Education and Science and his Department are no different. However, they are not alone. The Departments of Health and Children, Transport, Social and Family Affairs, to name but a few, would also like more funding. We must accept that we have finite resources. We cannot have sound management of public finances and continue to spend extra money without identifying priorities. We must spend according to our means. To do otherwise would be reckless and would have serious ramifications for the future.
I am confident that this Minister and this Government will continue to build on the major achievements in education and will do so in a manner consistent with overall prudent management of the Irish economy. We must not lose sight of the need to be student-centred at all times. This must be at the heart of all our objectives. I have every confidence in the Minister's ability and commitment to deliver on the priorities set out in the programme for Government in the lifetime of this Government. I am happy to support the amendment.
Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I am delighted to have an opportunity to speak on this motion, particularly because the Opposition mentioned a school in my constituency, Scoil an Spioraid Naoimh, Laytown. Since I became an elected representative I have visited this school more than any other in my constituency. I know the school as well as anyone.
The fact remains that massive numbers of extra teachers will come into the system this year. Schools in my constituency are gaining teachers, and rightly so, due to increased enrolment of students. I am sure Scoil Oilibhéir Naofa in Laytown will gain extra teachers given the increase in pupils attending the school this year. In addition, a full complement of teachers will be appointed to the new primary school in Laytown. It is quite likely there will be approximately 20 or 25 new teachers at post-primary and primary level in my constituency this September. This is a fact that has been ignored by the Opposition. Massive progress has been made. More than 2,000 teachers are being provided in primary schools in the school years 2007-08 and 2008-09. One would honestly think the system was collapsing and that schools are losing teachers and not able to put classes together.
I recognise teachers and parents are in the Gallery. They do a fantastic job, particularly in Scoil an Spioraid Naoimh in Laytown. The facts regarding this school are that it is losing a teacher and it would prefer not to lose a teacher. I would also prefer if it did not lose the teacher. However, it will have a net decrease of 30 or 40 pupils enrolling this year because of the new school in Laytown. Although it would be preferable to keep the teacher, the person in question is retiring and it is not a case of someone being let go.
The Labour Party spoke about the Green Party being absent from the debate and I am glad Deputy Mary White is here. The Labour Party completely absented itself from the Laytown schools crisis. The only Opposition Deputy with any role in it was Deputy Shane McEntee of Fine Gael. He played an important role and I acknowledge it.
Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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He was the only Opposition Member who did anything when a genuine crisis occurred in Laytown. Two or three Fianna Fáil public representatives attended every public meeting and accepted our responsibilities on the issue.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I think the Deputy is trying to hide his embarrassment by making false allegations against others. He has come in here to try to explain the unexplainable.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Burton, we have a finite time for the debate. I ask for no interruptions.
Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I have absolutely no embarrassment about this issue——
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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From what he is saying, it sounds like the Deputy is embarrassed.
Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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——because I have a fantastic relationship with the school.
Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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We are speaking about a school which is losing 30 or 40 pupils and would prefer to have another teacher, but it is not the crisis the Opposition is making out. Most of the other schools in question are not in my constituency. This school would prefer to hire a teacher to replace the retiring teacher but it is not the end of the world or a crisis and it is unfair of the Opposition to imply this is the case.
Major progress is being made with €380 million extra this year for teachers' pay and pensions. This is not an insignificant amount of money. It is a substantial amount of money to provide teachers where they are needed and ensure schools in developing areas and anywhere else with increasing numbers are provided with the teachers required.
With regard to Scoil an Spioraid Naoimh in Laytown, the Minister may be aware that an issue arose as it temporarily housed Scoil Oilibhéir Naofa on its grounds. The temporary prefabs erected during the crisis have been removed and Scoil Oilibhéir Naofa has a new building and will have a permanent building soon. However, the foundations and remains of some of the temporary buildings are still there.
I know the Minister is working on approving the funding to clear up the yard. Scoil an Spioraid Naoimh played a major role in accommodating Scoil Oilibhéir Naofa under extremely difficult circumstances. It gave up its gym and most of the yard. Will the Minister look favourably on the representations being made and allocate the cash to clean up the yard? The school did a fantastic job and the people involved were extremely helpful under difficult circumstances. They do not want to be down a teacher but it is not the crisis the Opposition is making out and there are far more serious issues with regard to school buildings——
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Does Deputy Byrne not realise it is a serious issue for the schools involved?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Byrne has limited time.
Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I will yield to my colleague because I have made the point to my constituents that Fianna Fáil representatives are in touch with their schools as much as any other representative. We speak with them and we know what is going on. We are pressing the case with the Minister. However, this is not necessarily the crisis the Opposition makes it out to be.
Mary White (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I am delighted to have this opportunity to speak in this debate. The Green Party has always placed major emphasis on education. Childhood is for life and we believe in putting in the resources to make sure a child's start is a positive one.
Mary White (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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Through our participation in Government, €350 million per year was earmarked for new service developments in education. The Green Party also ensured the programme for Government's commitment to long-term funding for the 12 centres in the ABA pilot scheme.
While nobody could have predicted the recent economic turbulence resulting from worldwide credit crunches and the sub-prime mortgage crises and the implications such faraway events would have on our Exchequer, €100 million extra will be spent this year over last year's levels on service developments in education. While Fine Gael and the Labour Party may berate the Government because not every school in the country has every resource and capacity it ought to have, I remind Deputy Brian Hayes that in Fine Gael's promises made last year, it apportioned €300 million extra to new service developments based, I presume, on its forecast for economic growth and revenue figures. The level Fine Gael wanted to spend was less than that demanded by the Green Party.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The Green Party ignored the promise. That is the point of the entire debate.
Mary White (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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Good fiscal management, as the Opposition always tells us, must take into account the economic climate. The Opposition can be sure we are spending more on new service developments than it would.
We will hear the Opposition say little about what the Government is delivering for primary education throughout the country, day in, day out. We will not hear it speak about the €586 million being spent this year on the school buildings programme, including the completion of work on 48 large-scale primary schools projects——
Mary White (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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——that will deliver 2,600 additional permanent school places in existing schools.
Mary White (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I will tell Deputy Tom Hayes in a minute. We will not hear it speak about the work on more than 150 devolved projects under the permanent accommodation scheme which will provide 8,000 extra places in existing schools. Among the important work in the developing areas unit is work on a school accommodation project in my constituency of Carlow which will open in September.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I got the speech earlier — it is all right.
Mary White (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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Class sizes must improve, but for parties to single out the loss of a teacher in some schools, blatantly overlooking the nuances of teacher allocation decisions and the substantial number of new teachers being provided by the Government, is shallow and disingenuous. The Opposition will also fail to mention the fact that the Minister told the House last night that the Government is well on target to provide 4,000 new primary teachers during its lifetime.
One of the schools listed in the Opposition's motion is close to my own heart and perhaps to Deputy Burton, that of Ballymurphy national school underneath the Blackstairs Mountains in County Carlow, a most beautiful rural school.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy White will dump on it tonight.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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She will vote against it.
Mary White (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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The school was given a principal and two mainstream teachers for 2007 to 2008 because of an enrolment of 49 pupils in September 2006. These figures are significant. Unfortunately, the enrolment in September last year was 47 and next year the school will have only a principal and one mainstream class teacher. In the case of Ballymurphy, I know there is the possibility of retaining the third teacher through the provisions made for developing school posts. I hope the Department, the Minister and his partners in Government will work hard with the school to provide this developing school post.
I note what the Minister had to say last evening about issues to do with teacher numbers in schools and I welcome his openness to any debate on the changes we might have to the overall schedule for allocating teachers. My view is that a certain humanity must be incorporated into the system of teacher numbers and while consistency with the rules is important, the drive to reduce class sizes will only be maintained by being realistic about schools in terms of numbers. I acknowledge the role to be played by the staffing appeals board in these matters and I trust the Minister will ensure the operation of this board is underpinned by realism and compassion.
This has been a good debate in the House on education. The Opposition can rest assured that my party will not get complacent about putting the necessary resources into primary, secondary and tertiary education.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Thanks be to God for that.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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It is earth-shattering news.
Mary White (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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We will pursue the targets and investment needed in budget 2009 and we will reduce class sizes in line with the commitments in the programme for Government. As I learned in school, festina lente — hasten slowly.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The Government is doing that and there is no doubt about it.
Mary White (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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In terms of the diktats of the economic situation, the commitments in the programme for Government are in safe hands.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I learned in school that we should cherish all the children of the nation equally.
Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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If I need protection from the several potential Fine Gael leaders facing me tonight, I will be happy to take it.
I congratulate the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe on his appointment and I wish him well. The Minister has always been helpful to me, such as when I went to him about the fire station in Tallaght when he was at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The power station or the fire station?
Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I will tell Deputy Hayes in a minute. I know the Minister will be helpful when I approach him with regard to education.
We have educational problems in Dublin South-West, like everywhere else. The Minister knows of my concern with regard to the need for the acceleration of the building programme at the Holy Rosary primary school in Ballycragh, which is a major local issue. A building programme is scheduled to be developed at Scoil Chaitlín Maude in Killinarden. The Minister knows I live in Springfield. My local primary school, St. Mark's, has more than 1,000 pupils, half of whom are from 40 different countries. As previous speakers said, this presents challenges and I hope the Minister will give them attention.
As is traditional on these occasions, I compliment my constituency colleague, Deputy Brian Hayes, on the issue he has raised. I read his contribution a few times and I was impressed by the soundbite in the final paragraph. He was dreaming when he wondered what Government Deputies would do because he knows what we will do. On the odd occasion in my first five years in the House I wanted to be on the Opposition benches where one can relax, have a little moan and one does not have to worry about much. However, I am happy on the Government benches.
Deputy Brian Hayes was kind enough to mention one of my local schools near where he lives, St. Killian's in Kingswood, and I am not afraid to discuss the school. Following the 2002 election, there was a major issue about the building programme in our area and all of us co-operated. I did not take my eye off the ball and I remained focused on what needed to be achieved. I approached the Minister for Education and Science every other day about that issue. I brought her to the estate and I showed her the difficulties. I am glad that when economic circumstances improved during the last Dáil, the Government ensured those works were completed. The school is a tremendous example of what can be achieved.
Like many other schools on the INTO list, which Deputy Brian Hayes highlighted, it faces challenges. The Minister will not be offended if I raise those issues. I am concerned about all the schools in my area and about educational disadvantage. One of the problems faced by schools such as St. Killian's in Kingswood is they are not considered disadvantaged under the Department's criteria in this regard. For example, they are not located on an island or in the Gaeltacht and they are not all-Irish schools. Such schools benefit from hugely preferential pupil-teacher ratios and additional teaching and financial resources. St. Killian's does not enjoy such advantages and this has created significant resentment among the parents and the local community. The Minister must make sure such communities and schools do not believe they are being disadvantaged. Other colleagues have outlined similar examples.
I do not have time to rattle off the details regarding every other school but staffing of mainstream classes is allocated on a previous September basis. The number of mainstream teachers for September 2008 will be based on enrolments on 30 September 2007. On that date, St. Killian's in Kingwood had 284 pupils whereas now it has 285. This creates a difficulty. I acknowledge the comments of other colleagues and the arguments that have been put forward. We are all entitled to make the case for our local schools and there will always be cases to be made but if we examine particular examples, they show up the problem and the solution.
I wish the Minister well as he wrestles with these problems. I hope the Ceann Comhairle had an enjoyable day, as it is a special day for him.
Michael Kennedy (Dublin North, Fianna Fail)
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Ar dtús báire, ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a ghabháil leis an tAire nua, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, agus an Aire Stáit, Deputy Séan Haughey. Go n-éirí leo san obair thábhachtach.
I welcome the opportunity to contribute on this issue, which is close to my heart. I represent Dublin North, one of the fastest growing constituencies in Ireland if not in Europe. No one can deny there is always room for improvement in the education system. It will never be perfect and we will always need to work on it to ensure progress and advancement. The Government and its predecessors have tried to commit themselves to the best education system, which is best illustrated by the aggressive building programme undertaken since 2002 with massive spending in this area over that period, which has resulted in a reduction in class sizes. The Minister outlined the Government's achievements last night.
This year more than €9.3 billion will be spent on education, with €600 million allocated to the schools building programme. The allocation for teachers' pay and pension is €4.6 billion, not an insignificant amount. Staff numbers have reduced in a number of the schools listed in the motion. I was surprised St. Patrick's junior school, Skerries, in my constituency lost a teacher but when I investigated this, I discovered the school enrolment had reduced from 360 in 2004 to 339 in September 2007. On the basis of the 27:1 ratio, this resulted in the reduction in staff numbers. However, the ratio works both ways. When enrolments have increased, teachers have been appointed and the statistics back this up.
I was surprised the enrolment in St. Patrick's had reduced because over the past year my colleagues and myself fought for a new school in the northern end of Skerries and, thankfully, the Government approved a new Educate Together school in the Kelly's Bay area. In my region, six new schools will come on stream next September.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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All the new schools are in Dublin.
Michael Kennedy (Dublin North, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps that is the result of me making good representations but I thank the previous Minister for Education and Science and the current Minister for this. It may be difficult for the Opposition to accept substantial progress is being made.
It should be recognised at least 120 teachers are going back into the system to take up positions in schools that are expanding. As my colleague, Deputy Conlon, stated, a staffing appeals board was established and it met for the first time this month. This independent mechanism is available to schools that find themselves in the predicament of losing a teacher. The boards of management of such schools should make an appeal and, hopefully, their cases will be well heard.
The new schools coming on stream in my constituency are as follows: Educate Together in Kelly's Bay, Skerries; Educate Together, Applewood, north Swords; two primary schools and a secondary school in Castlelands, Balbriggan; Gaelscoil Ros Eo in Rush; and the Rush-Lusk Educate Together school, which has been relocated to a new site on Raheny Lane, Lusk.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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That is why the Government cannot pay our teachers in Tipperary.
Michael Kennedy (Dublin North, Fianna Fail)
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Each project is proceeding to tender and construction stage. A new secondary school will open in Donabate later this year. Fingal County Council has provided the use of Donabate Community Centre as temporary accommodation, pending the construction of another new school, which will hopefully be completed in two years. St. George's national school in Balbriggan has been awarded band 1 status, giving it priority funding to expand to an eight-teacher school to meet the needs of the Protestant community in the area.
The population of north Dublin has exploded, especially in the traditional small rural towns of Swords, Balbriggan and Skerries. The Government has met the needs of the expanding communities in the list of works I outlined. I thank the different Ministers involved. The current Minister and the Minister of State are aware of the needs not only of my region but of others.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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I wish to share time with Deputies Flanagan, Shatter, Joe Carey, McEntee, Varadkar and Crawford.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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I am delighted to be here to support the motion moved by Deputy Brian Hayes, our spokesman on education. Listening to the Government speakers tonight, one would swear there was no problem. A common theme emerging is that the Government cannot deliver in a year. It gave a commitment in the programme for Government that it would reduce the pupil-teacher ratio from 27 to 26 by 30 September. Once again, it has reneged on that promise.
In the 2002 programme for Government, the Government gave a commitment that children under the age of nine would be taught in classes with fewer than 20 students. In my constituency in Limerick, 85% of schools have children in classes with more than 20 students. Once again, the Government has totally reneged on a commitment.
I welcome Bill Reidy, the principal of JFK Memorial School in Limerick, as well as parents and pupils who travelled up here tonight to show how important it is to the principal, teaching staff and students in this school. I have four children in national school. Two of them are in classes of more than 35 children, while the other two are in classes with fewer than 30 children. I asked them what difference being in a class of 35 made because I believe that children will best represent it. They said that the teachers have to spend most of their time controlling the class, the weaker students are not looked after and the average student can fall through the cracks. Education is the gateway for people to get on in life. Shame on Fianna Fáil and this Government for not dealing with something so fundamental.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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I have been a member of parents' associations for the past ten years. Ten years ago, we petitioned to reduce class sizes. Here I am today pushing the same case. We will not let this go. The Government will have to honour its commitment and, particularly in respect of JFK Memorial School in Limerick, ensure that the 11th teacher is retained. It is vital.
There is a very simple solution. There is an independent appeals board whose terms of reference are totally confined.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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Its terms of reference should be extended.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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There are no appeals.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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The terms of reference should be extended to deal with hardship cases. This is the key issue. If we had a little bit of imagination and practicality, we would have a situation where these 28 schools that are about to lose a teacher would not lose one. It is ludicrous.
The most that is involved here is probably €1.5 million. I did a rough calculation before I came out. To put this in context, the Ministers and the Taoiseach will get the bones of €800,000 plus in terms of increases which they are unwilling to set aside. That is putting it in its context. It is small money but one cannot quantify the long-term consequences for children. I guarantee that if Government Deputies went home at night and asked their spouse or partner how he or she felt about the fact that their child was in a class of 35, he or she would say they wanted it changed. They are being sanctimonious in saying that the Government is doing something on this. It is doing absolutely nothing.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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Out of 27 OECD countries, we have the fourth worst pupil-teacher ratio. This has been going on for the past six years. The Government came in with a proposal to reduce it below 20 in 2002 for children under the age of nine. It introduced something that was not great but at least gave an incremental reduction of one per year between 2007 and 2012. What has the Government done here? It has reneged on its commitment, which it needs to honour.
I will be looking for the Fianna Fáil backbenchers and Ministers to come with us on this. This is above politics; it is about the future of our children and Ireland. The issue here is about the retention of that extra teacher. Shame on the Government.
Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate my colleague, Deputy Brian Hayes, on bringing this motion before the Dáil this evening and thank all those in Gallery who have come along to support tonight's motion for debate. Fine Gael has been forced to bring this motion to the House to prevent 28 primary schools from losing teachers.
In the programme for Government in 2002, it was stated that within five years, the Government would introduce maximum class guidelines which would ensure that the average size of classes for children under nine would be below the international best practice guideline of 20:1. In the programme for Government, the Government set out its pledge to reduce class sizes to one teacher for 26 children by September 2008. The Government has broken this promise and, instead, the Minister for Education and Science has instructed 28 primary schools to sack a teacher. As a result, 28 primary schools around the country will suffer. In my constituency of Dublin North-East, two schools are affected — St. Peter and Paul's boys' national school in Baldoyle and St. Kevin's junior national school in Donaghmede.
St. Kevin's junior national school will lose a teacher in the upcoming school year. The school will now consist of four classes which will mean the amalgamation of the present junior infants to make a class of 35. This class includes six children for whom English is not their first language, one child with diagnosed special needs and children with mixed abilities.
This is an unworkable situation and a complete fiasco. To have 35 students in one class is outrageous and totally unacceptable. How can these students achieve their full potential in a class of 35 pupils? This Government is actually increasing class sizes in some schools instead of the promised reduction. A fully equipped classroom is available in St. Kevin's junior national school which will now sadly lie idle because of the latest round of cutbacks. The pupils are present; all that is needed now is a teacher.
The loss of a teacher at St. Peter and Paul's boys' national school in Baldoyle will leave 29 junior infants in one class and 38 boys in another class. Having an extra teacher would have facilitated an extra junior infants' class, a situation which had previously been enacted. This would enable the younger children to obtain a proper introduction into school life in a smaller classroom setting. How can these pupils now get a decent start when their progress is to be hindered in a class of 38? In October 2007, the school predicted that a slight decrease in pupil enrolment would occur in the next school year. However, since then, there has been a vast increase in school numbers and there will now be even more students in the school next year. I ask the Minister for Education and Science to re-examine the change in enrolment numbers with a view to reinstating the teacher at St. Peter and Paul's boys' national school.
A good education is a vital requirement in society today. Primary school students need individual attention and small class sizes in order to develop. Large class sizes, which are the norm in this country, are leading to students losing out and are placing enormous pressure on all teachers affected. The average class size across OECD countries is 22 students per teacher, while the average class size in the EU is 20.3 students per teacher. In Ireland, the average class size is 24.3 students per teacher, which is certainly not good enough. Ireland only spends 4.6% of its GDP on education compared to the OECD average of 5.5%. If we are serious about education, according to a professor of education at NUI Maynooth, the Government needs to spend 7% of our GDP on education; an increase in funding would certainly enable the deficiencies in education to be addressed.
The Government has underfunded education in this country. In recent times, the plight suffered by many schools has been highlighted in the media. Springdale national school in Raheny is just one of a number of schools that has been on a waiting list for a new school building for nearly ten years. Pupils and teachers are working in Third World conditions and still have not received a date for the new school building.
The Minister for Education and Science has stated that these latest cutbacks are due to the current economic and budgetary environment. I refuse to accept this. Two days ago, the Government announced it will plough €400 million into research funding for universities. I ask the Minister to get his priorities right and to hold back the necessary funding to allow the 28 primary schools affected to retain their teachers. Fine Gael has tabled this motion to put the Government under pressure to ensure that these 28 schools do not lose a teacher. I call on the new Minister for Education and Science to urgently revisit this decision and to reinstate the teachers. I also ask all Members of the House to support this motion.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Like my colleagues, I congratulate Deputy Brian Hayes, the Fine Gael spokesperson on education, on tabling this motion, which is both appropriate and timely. I listened with a growing feeling of nausea last night to the Minister for Education and Science as he accused my party of political opportunism. I am not quite sure what that means but my definition of political opportunism is a political party which, for personal electoral gain, misleads people at election time. What we are engaged in is not political opportunism. We are seeking to call a Government to account for making false promises that affect schools all over the country.
I wish to deal with the situation in one particular school in my constituency and briefly refer to other schools which are experiencing difficulties of a similar nature. Scoil Colmcille Naofa in Knocklyon is one of the biggest primary schools in the country. At the hands of this Government it has, in the past six months, suffered what could be best described as a double-whammy. We have gone through a piece of theatre in successive general elections in the Dublin South constituency. In 2002, St. Colmcille's in Knocklyon was promised a new school because 500 of the 1,500 pupils in it had been occupying prefabricated buildings for far too many years. The same promise was recirculated in 2007 and the accompanying promise, given across the length and breadth of the country, was that there would be a reduction in class size. When it comes to education, particularly primary education, we all know that size matters. It matters particularly with regard to children getting the education to which they are entitled and teachers working in an environment which allows them to use their talents to best effect for the benefit of children.
St. Colmcille's school will be denied a teacher in September, a teacher who is working there at present. St. Colmcille's, perhaps naively — if it was naive, so was the rest of the education sector — believed the Government when it said it would have a 26:1 ratio and operated some forward planning to determine how it would deal with that in the context of the term starting next September. The school intended to turn six classes at junior infant level into seven. As a result of losing a teacher, 26 families who had expected their children to start junior infants in September await, disappointed. In addition to being faced with their children starting a year later than they had anticipated, they are now also possibly faced with the additional and unexpected cost of child care.
It is grossly unfair to this school. I welcome representatives from the school who are in the Public Gallery this evening. It is grossly unfair to them to deprive the school of a teacher. It is also grossly unfair that a false promise that they would have a new school resulted, in November 2007, in the Government stopping the school from seeking planning permission. That school is now condemned to keep its pupils for an undefined number of years in prefabricated buildings, as are a series of other schools in south Dublin. From Leopardstown to Marley to Ballyroan and Loretto in Rathfarnham, children are in prefabricated buildings that are long past their sell-by date.
I ask that for once Government Deputies who treat education seriously support this motion. This motion deserves support. Our children deserve the best possible education and they do not deserve to be betrayed by false promises made by opportunistic politicians at election time.
Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Thousands of primary school children in this State are falling behind because of years of neglect by successive Fianna Fáil-led Governments. The Minister last night described the winners and losers in the lottery that is the annual allocation of staff in the primary sector. The system is archaic and is causing massive disruption to our national schools on an annual basis. A school that is one student under the requirement loses a teacher. Is this how any successful business organisation would conduct its affairs?
There are many schools in County Clare that experience this unnecessary pressure. The Minister must address the areas that are experiencing significant population growth, not just in Dublin, but in large population centres and their hinterlands, such as Ennis, County Clare, which has the following primary schools: Ennis national school, Ennis Christian Brothers primary school, Scoil Chríost Rí in Cloughleigh, The Holy Family, Ennis Educate Together, the Gaelscoil, Clarecastle, Barefield, Knockanean, Scoil na Mainstreach, Quin, Ballyea and Doora.
The systems for planning in education need a major overhaul. The Minister must revisit how the Government provides primary education from an infrastructural and a staffing point of view. I attended several meetings about class size in County Clare before the last general election. Indeed, every Deputy in this House did so. It is most regrettable that the Minister is standing over the pupils of Ireland being the first casualties of the Government's cutbacks. During the first weeks of this new Administration we heard many references to Irish political history. I remind the Minister that one of his predecessors, Mr. Donogh O'Malley, took the bull by the horns in 1967 and introduced free secondary education, thus enabling and empowering a whole generation of Irish people. Where are we 40 years later?
Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We have classrooms bursting at the seams, chronic underfunding of schools, prefab after prefab, parents fundraising to pay for basic necessities, such as windows and doors, the discontinuation of the summer works programme, the imposition of water charges and the long, never-ending list of children awaiting assessment for the much-needed services of a special needs assistant.
Ireland's economy will suffer greatly if the Government does not have regard for primary education. At the heart of this is the need to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio. Before last year's general election, Fianna Fáil promised that class size would be addressed but it has failed. It has failed the children of Ireland. The rhetoric of association with those who truly had public service at heart is all fine and well. Talk is very easy, paper does not refuse ink and microphones do not refuse soundbites. With this Government, led by the Taoiseach, we could be dealing with a busted flush. It is short-sighted of the Government to continue to ignore class size. It is also a betrayal of future generations, given that it is internationally acknowledged that higher achievements by pupils is directly related to the numbers in classes, which is of particular importance at primary level. If we cannot educate children properly at primary level with a low pupil-teacher ratio as a cornerstone, we immediately place them at a disadvantage. Then the State is faced with trying to play catch-up throughout their time in the educational system.
The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, was put to the top of the class by the Taoiseach, Deputy Brian Cowen, and I congratulate him on that. I ask him to take a different stance from the one adopted by the previous Minister for Education and Science and to deal with the issue of class size. I urge him to reduce class sizes and to deliver on the commitments that he and all Fianna Fáil Deputies gave to the people of Ireland. I commend the motion to the House.
P J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Another broken Fianna Fáil promise.
8:00 pm
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I compliment Deputy Brian Hayes on introducing this motion, which is crucial. I hope that in four years' time the parents and teachers of Ireland will recognise the work he is doing on their behalf and that what happened last year will never happen again. I have a list of schools before me, including those in Moynalty, Julianstown and Rathfeigh, which were promised in March last year that new schools would be built and so forth. According to the previous Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Mary Hanafin, we do not have the money to do it now. In four years' time, such promises will be made again.
I wish to address the former Minister's legacy in Laytown. For any school to be functional, it needs good accommodation, adequate staff and sports facilities. These are what we are without in Laytown. There is no school and there are no staff and no sports facilities. I am delighted that Minister is gone from office, as are the people of Meath. She basically filled them with false promises and then did a runner. I hope the new Minister will take a trip to County Meath to see the mess left by the previous Minister.
Two years ago when there was uproar about provision of classrooms in a school in Laytown, the solution put forward by Fianna Fáil and the other representatives in office was to put the children on a bus, bring them to where Paul Carberry and Barry Geraghty were the day before and accommodate them in the weighing room at a racecourse. The people made a decision on that. That is why Deputy Thomas Byrne and myself were taken on board to address the matter. That is perhaps why Deputy Byrne was elected, and rightly so, given that he worked hard in this respect.
However, I object to the false promises that were made. We are dealing with pupils and teachers. I would not want the job of teacher. To ask them to handle 24 children is bad enough, but they are being asked to teach classes of 33 or 34 and to educate them properly. That is simply not on.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy McEntee should try handling 165 TDs.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle does that very well.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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That increase in class size is the issue. I am glad the Minister is back in the Chamber.
Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am back to hear the Deputy.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I missed the Minister. I am not allowed show him a picture of a school but he might come to County Meath and sort out the mess left by his predecessor in the county. It is not class size but the provision of classes that is the issue in the county. We want schools. All school projects in the county have been put on the long finger now that the general election is over. The Minister would be very welcome in Laytown and Bettystown and he could meet the honest people who were brought to the hotel across the road and given——
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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——-or told untruths. Now that the general election is over the projects are no further advanced.
However, class size is an issue. The money spent on providing prefabs would be better spent on borrowing capital on which interest could be paid to provide proper school buildings in which pupils could be taught properly rather than having to go from prefab to prefab for classes.
If the people continue to follow the work Deputy Brian Hayes is doing, in four years they might recognise that the most important issue in the country is the education of our young people. While the money available is tight, the money that is being spent on prefabs would be better spent on the provision of proper school buildings.
I commend the motion to the House and hope the Fianna Fáil members representing County Meath, whose people have had a difficult time in this regard, will side with Fine Gael in voting on it.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the opportunity to address the motion. I join my colleagues in complimenting Deputy Brian Hayes and the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party on proposing this motion and the Labour Party on supporting it.
I speak on behalf of the 28 schools that stand to lose a teacher, in particular St. Francis Xavier national school in my constituency. It is the school I attended and am grateful for the education I got there. It stands to lose two teachers, at least one of whom could be saved if this motion were adopted.
One or two of the many commitments in the programme for Government are clearly set out. The commitment in this respect is clearly stated. Not only did the Government commit to reducing the pupil-teacher ratio from 27:1 to 24:1 by 2010, it committed specifically to do so by one point every year.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Government is engaging specifically in breaching a promise by refusing to do that. I understand that provision was written into the programme for Government at the express demand of the Green Party. It is disappointing that none of the three Green Party Ministers has addressed this motion. It is clear that never in history has a party prostituted itself as cheaply as the Green Party, or sold out so much and made so many promises and delivered so few.
I would like to address the OECD report on public sector reform, which is interesting. It deals at length with public sector reform. This is a good example of it. The rigidity that works in school systems is making education almost impossible. Where a requirement of 21 hours must be met to allow the allocation of a fully qualified teacher for children with special needs, it cannot be met if the number of hours is only 20 and the school cannot be allocated that teacher. Similarly, in a case where an additional teacher will be allocated in a school where the pupil-teacher ratio is 26:1, it cannot be the case that an additional teacher will not be allocated if the pupil-teacher ratio falls to 25:1. Some of the proposals made by the OECD need to be adopted and schools, principals and boards of management need to be given much more autonomy in managing their budgets. Such rigidity from the Department cannot be imposed on schools as if we were living in Soviet times. Schools must be allowed to manage their budgets better.
Fundamentally this issue is about money and choices. The amount involved is €1.4 million, which is not a great deal of money. The Government should consider its choices. Instead of spending that amount, it is deciding to give 35 Ministers pay increases which will cost €1.05 million. It is proposing to spend €2 million on climate change advertisements, which some Members may have seen on television carrying the message, "change the world, this is your world" or something like that. The Government has chosen to spend €8 million on a secondary school site and €3 million on a primary school site both in my constituency, which it could have got for free in the same way it could get open space for free if it were to change the planning laws. It is spending €3 million on a Transport 21 advertising campaign to tell us that it is spending many billions on Transport 21 — that is just great. We have already shown how the Government could save €50 million by reforming State agencies. The Ministers opposite have 100 civil servants working in their constituency offices. If they gave up the equivalent of a half a civil servant that would be all they would have to do to save the loss of these teachers.
A fundamental issue I should address as the spokesperson for enterprise, trade and employment is that of the economy. We are entering a different phase of economic development and to survive in these new and changing times two areas on which we cannot cut back are infrastructure and education. If the Government penny pinches with education to the extent that it will not deliver €1.4 million, a tiny amount of money, the cost of that further down the line will be phenomenal. The jobs that will exist here in ten or 15 years will be skilled ones. We cannot afford to have a country in which all our citizens, including our children, are not educated and do not have qualifications. That is really what this motion is about.
I commend it to the House. I hope the Fianna Fáil Deputies, including the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan will vote in favour on it. This is not simply about cutting back in terms of a little money, it is fundamentally about our economic future. It is important that is understood. Cutbacks in education will cost us much more in ten or 15 years' time.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I thank my colleague, Deputy Brian Hayes, for bringing forward this motion on the reduction of staff numbers at specific schools. I want to strongly make the case for adding Castleblayney girls school to that list in light of the fact it will not only lose one teacher but two. I understand this school, which has already been classified as disadvantaged, may be down up to ten pupils which under the current regulations will mean it will automatically lose a teacher. However, this in turn will mean the principal will have to become a class teacher again, leading to an actual loss of two teachers. Under the DEIS structures, the principal is supposed to attend a number of meetings outside the school and this will now be virtually impossible as she has to manage a staff of eight. I urge that the case of this school be addressed as a matter of urgency. Under the DEIS scheme, the principal delivers breakfast clubs, hot lunch clubs and after school activities, which are important in this type of area.
Some 18 months ago the Oireachtas Members of Cavan-Monaghan were invited to meet the INTO personnel in Urbleshanny national school. While only Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and myself turned up, I will always remember the case put forward by the spokesperson, the late Peter McGrane, and the fact that we were shown around the classrooms where one teacher was trying to deal with 37 students and others were not far behind in that regard. When I rang that school today I was advised in no uncertain terms that nothing has changed in spite of this Government's general election promises. While the largest class currently is 35, there will be an increase in the number of students next September, making the pupil-teacher ratio even worse.
I spoke to people in quite a few other schools who are in a similar position, but the greatest problem in areas such as Monaghan is the significant number of non-English speaking students, never mind those with a handicap or disadvantage. Classes of more than 30 students are impossible to manage in that situation. As one teacher pointed out to me, a child with minor difficulties is at least equivalent to two children while a child with major difficulties is the equivalent of dealing with five children.
Added to all of that is the serious difficulty in having a child assessed to ensure that proper backup services are obtained, as every effort is being made by the Department to minimise the number of classroom assistants. Even when children are assessed, the assessment often comes back in statement form to the effect that, for instance, there is a tendency towards dyslexia rather than stating the child actually has the problem.
It is vital that the Government, as a first step, ensures no teacher is removed from any school and that a genuine effort is made to reach the goal put forward at election time. No teacher or parent expects this to be done instantly, but they do expect a genuine movement in this direction. The lack of effort on school buildings and other issues in recent times is deplorable and must be improved.
Seán Haughey (Dublin North Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have had a very interesting discussion on this motion and amendment, both last night and this evening. The Deputies on the opposite side of the House have taken the opportunity to raise the plight of individual schools in their constituencies, which is what they must do as public representatives. However, I would like to put the debate in the context of the overall situation relating to education and funding by the Department.
As the Minister said yesterday, the priority the Government attaches to providing quality education is evident from the fact that the education budget has increased by more than 70% since 2002 to over €9.3 billion this year. I reject the comments made by Deputy McEntee. The former Minister, Deputy Mary Hanafin, presided over a number of these years, from 2002 until this year, and has a number of achievements to her credit.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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She left no schools and no teachers. She was a disaster and ran out of the job.
Seán Haughey (Dublin North Central, Fianna Fail)
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For more than a decade, Fianna Fáil-led Governments have dramatically increased the number of teachers in primary schools to meet a series of objectives, including reducing class size, providing improved staffing ratios, meeting the needs of pupils from socio-economic disadvantaged areas, supporting children with special needs and supporting the language needs of new children. Since 2002, there are approximately 6,000 more teachers on the Department's pay roll. In the 2006-07 and 2007-08 school years additional teachers were allocated, specifically to reduce class sizes. There can be no doubt about where the Government stands on primary education.
This debate has exposed further double speak from the Opposition benches. Fine Gael makes repeated calls for additional spending on education and other public services, but at the same time criticises the Government for its management of public expenditure.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We told the Government what needed to be done and gave it choices.
Seán Haughey (Dublin North Central, Fianna Fail)
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All programme for Government commitments to improve public services, including those relating to class size, are contingent on the economic and budgetary environment and on the need for prudent expenditure and fiscal management. This was pointed out at the time of the general election.
Any discussions on serious issues are devalued if inaccurate statements are made in an attempt to be sensational. I accept that representative groups such as the INTO can legitimately hold a view that even more teachers should have been allocated this year to enable progress on reducing class size. For cynical reasons, and in an obvious attempt to sensationalise the issue, Fine Gael has gone further and even attacked the mechanism of the staffing schedule. The schedule remains a transparent and clear way of ensuring that all schools are treated consistently and fairly and that they know where they stand. It is, also, agreed by the social partners.
Seán Haughey (Dublin North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know Fine Gael likes to continually interrupt Government speakers. It does not do democracy any good not to let speakers, on all sides, to be heard.
The staffing situation relating to an individual situation can be picked out, but whether the allocation is based on an average of 27 pupils per teacher or is reduced further, ultimately schools make individual choices in assigning teachers to class groups. With over 20,000 individual classes spread across all schools throughout the country, there will always be differences in individual class sizes. If one school has a class of 35 while another school with the same number of pupils and teachers avoids having a class that big, the first question to ask is what could be done differently by the school concerned.
I remind the House that even with the emergence, in the latter half of 2007, of a much more challenging economic climate, the education budget was prioritised by the Government and given an increase of 8% in budget 2008. It was an increase of that order that enabled the allocation of over 2,000 additional teachers to primary schools since the Government took office last summer. This shows that the Government has a clear focus on the needs of primary schools. Sound and responsible Government means acting carefully in a measured and balanced way when there is global economic uncertainty. Difficult choices must be made, but they are in our long-term interest and will, ultimately, enable us to fulfil our promises.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I will share time with Deputies Tom Hayes and Brian Hayes.
I will not mention any specific schools in my constituency because over the past ten years I have raised by way of parliamentary question the issue of the pupil-teacher ratio time and time again. I got the same reply time after time, explaining to me that the Government was spending more money than in 1997 and that more resources were being put into the system than then. Those replies did not deal with the issue. I was not looking for a history lesson, but wanted someone to attend to the pertinent issue at the time. The issue not only affected my constituency, which is next door to Dublin, but other constituencies throughout the country.
It is sad that during the reign of the Celtic tiger nothing was done to improve the situation. The saddest story the Government has to tell tomorrow's children is that during the reign of the Celtic tiger we had full and plenty in the land, but they ate, drank and were merry and went to the tent in Ballybrit and other places and had a great time. However, they will have to tell the children they are very sorry because they did not have the time, resources or ingenuity to improve the pupil-teacher ratio. They were unable to do so because of a combination of factors, including inadequate school buildings and the failure to recognise the problems. The buildings were old and decrepit and were the same classrooms the parents of the children attended 25 or 30 years previously.
I am not making a personal attack on the Minister and Minister of State opposite me, but it is appalling that we have come through the era of the Celtic tiger, a time when we were seen worldwide as a country of plenty and when we were boasting about the resources we had and what we could do with them, and have done nothing for our children. The Government has prehistoric attitudes to everything.
If there is one thing the Government must do, it must shake up the Department. It must stop going round in circles and making excuses. It must stop trying to find ways out of doing things, thereby ensuring nothing will be done. I urge the Minister to deal with this because the Department will strangle him if he does not.
I and others have raised the issue of the pupil-teacher ratio repeatedly over the past seven or eight years and the INTO and others came on board with us before the last general election. I remember attending a meeting of 500 or 600 people in my constituency at which promises were made by the Government party to the effect that the Government would deliver incrementally over a prescribed period. It did not deliver and has failed in that regard. Is it not sad that the Government, having codded the people for so long, is now codding the children?
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chair for the opportunity to speak on the crucial issues of class size and the funding of primary schools. This has been a terrible year for teachers, parents and students alike with regard to all types of school funding. We are discussing tonight a broken promise on school numbers, whereby the 40 schools discussed in this debate stand to lose a teacher due to a broken promise.
Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The Government has failed time and again to look after young people by failing to put adequate funding in place for their education. We have witnessed the cancellation of the summer works scheme and have seen the Government take parents to court in order to deny them education for children with special needs. We have witnessed parents and students subsidising schools in order to pay water, heat and electricity charges. What can the Opposition do about it?
This is not good enough. Parents, students, and teachers deserve better. Our economic and social future depends on our children receiving a good educational foundation and improved literacy skills to ensure they get the best start in life. The children at the Christian Brothers primary school, the Monastery school, in Tipperary town will not be getting the best start in life due to this broken promise.
This school had nine classroom teachers but will only have eight next September. Where is the promise that the Government made in 2002, when it committed to children up to nine years having class sizes of 20? Why does the Government persist in recognising how important class size is and committing to improving it, particularly in more socially deprived areas, and then withholding this essential resource? How can the Government ignore the disruption this causes to schools, students and teachers, disturbing established work practices and relationships and tampering with literacy skills at a crucial period of development?
The required number of students at the Monastery school on 30 September 2007 was 232 but the actual number was 231. Due to the Government's pledges at election time, there was no need for concern. As the promise was not kept, this school now loses a teacher.
This commitment was signed into the programme for Government by Fianna Fáil, the Progressive Democrats, the Green Party and others. I have known the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, for a long time. I challenge him to listen to the argument made by the Monastery school in Tipperary town. Two weeks ago I heard the case put forward by the school's principal and the committed young teacher who will lose her job in September. Across from the school is the headquarters of Muintir na Tíre. I was reminded of when Canon John Hayes made the case for rural Ireland:
There is a need for leadership and action from those in high office in order to safeguard the future needs of our people, our children and our communities.
I put it to the Minister to take his lead from Canon John Hayes.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank my colleagues on this side of the House, some 25 Members, who spoke in support of this motion. I thank the many parents, teachers, members of boards of management who came from all parts of the country to hear this debate in their Parliament. I want to recognise their attendance because they came for one reason — to support their schools and their children and ensure they get the best opportunities.
If the Minister decided to support our motion, it would send a positive signal not only to those 28 schools concerned but to the primary education sector that the Government will deliver on its promises. By not supporting the motion, the Minister is saying the commitment made in the programme for Government is a thing of the past.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I first asked the Department about these lay-offs in February. When the then Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Mary Hanafin, was leaving Marlborough Street by the back door on 6 May, she gave me the list which contained 40 schools which would lose 42 teachers. When those schools were contacted independently, only 28 had been informed. Either I was deliberately misinformed by the Department or another 12 schools have yet to be informed by the Department which got information about these schools on 30 September last year. This is how incompetent the Minister and his Department are. It is a Department not fit for purpose as Deputy Ruairí Quinn said earlier.
The Minister has the brass neck to tell the House of the number of children in classes over 30 pupils but he is still fiddling around with the figures.
Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I gave the House the figures last night.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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He also claims he hopes to have the figures published in the summer. The Minister has known this since 30 September 2007. What kind of outfit is he leading?
If this is the way he treats this House and his predecessor, how does he treat schools around the country? We speak about planning for education and giving schools autonomy but we have a dysfunctional Department with the Minister at its head. His Department does not know what it is talking about when it gives misinformation to the House. That is the problem at the heart of this debate.
I recognise the Minister is an honest man and new to the brief and these complex issues. Will the Minister tell the House whether the commitment given to the people in 2002 about class sizes for children up to nine years still stands? The silence on the other side of the House speaks volumes.
Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy heard my speech last night. He is deliberately misleading the House.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Brian Hayes without interruption.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The amount of waffle we heard last night from the Minister speaks volumes about how he treats this issue. The Minister cannot give a straight answer to the question. Is it still a Government commitment?
Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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As I stated last night, if the finances are available we will examine the issue.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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That is not a commitment. Now we have it. The Minister tried to shout me down because the truth obviously hurts.
Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy asked me a question and I am simply giving an answer.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Brian Hayes without interruption.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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We heard many speeches from Government Members but none from any whose constituencies are affected by this. Where is Dublin's north-side equivalent of Hugo Chavez, Deputy Finian McGrath, tonight? Last night in the Chamber he sat on every side. What will the last of the socialists on Dublin's north side do about the schools in his constituency? Deputy Charlie O'Connor gave us his usual fascinating "Thank you very much Mr. Eastwood" speech on the motion but Tallaght needs Mr. Tallaght tonight. The Green Party's alleged next Minister, Deputy Mary White, spoke about the need for a "certain humanity" in a speech given to her by the Department of Education and Science. Where is the Government on this issue?
I submit that teaching matters. I submit we are not spending enough on primary education. I concur with Deputy Leo Varadkar that this is about choices. In the OECD table on education expenditure, we are at the bottom. Ireland spends 4.6% of its GDP on education where other OECD members are way ahead. In this country, 24% of the population is in formal education but we spend little on them. More must be spent. This is a promise that was to be delivered, they told us, before the election——
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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——and after the election. Let Fianna Fáil go through the lobbies tonight. Let them tell the 16 constituencies, the 28 schools, exactly where they stand because Fianna Fáil says one thing before the election and another thing after the election. This is hypocrisy and we will expose it.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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As it is now 8.30 p.m.——
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, as a long-standing Member of this House the Ceann Comhairle knows that in order for an amendment to be formally moved, it requires a proposer and a seconder. In the course of last night's debate, the Government amendment was moved by the Minister but at no stage after his speech or tonight was the amendment formally seconded. The substantive motion in my name and that of my colleagues is the only motion that should be put to the House.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Under Standing Orders the seconding of an amendment of this nature is not required.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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That is a new interpretation of Standing Orders.
The Dail Divided:
For the motion: 76 (Dermot Ahern, Michael Ahern, Barry Andrews, Chris Andrews, Seán Ardagh, Bobby Aylward, Joe Behan, Niall Blaney, Áine Brady, Cyprian Brady, Johnny Brady, John Browne, Thomas Byrne, Dara Calleary, Pat Carey, Niall Collins, Margaret Conlon, Seán Connick, John Cregan, Ciarán Cuffe, Martin Cullen, John Curran, Noel Dempsey, Jimmy Devins, Timmy Dooley, Frank Fahey, Michael Finneran, Michael Fitzpatrick, Seán Fleming, Séamus Kirk, Pat Gallagher, John Gormley, Noel Grealish, Mary Hanafin, Seán Haughey, Jackie Healy-Rae, Máire Hoctor, Billy Kelleher, Peter Kelly, Brendan Kenneally, Michael Kennedy, Tony Killeen, Séamus Kirk, Michael Kitt, Tom Kitt, Brian Lenihan Jnr, Conor Lenihan, Michael Lowry, Micheál Martin, Tom McEllistrim, Mattie McGrath, Michael McGrath, John Moloney, Michael Moynihan, Michael Mulcahy, M J Nolan, Éamon Ó Cuív, Seán Ó Fearghaíl, Darragh O'Brien, Charlie O'Connor, Willie O'Dea, Noel O'Flynn, Rory O'Hanlon, Batt O'Keeffe, Ned O'Keeffe, Mary O'Rourke, Christy O'Sullivan, Peter Power, Eamon Ryan, Trevor Sargent, Eamon Scanlon, Brendan Smith, Noel Treacy, Mary Wallace, Mary White, Michael Woods)
Against the motion: 62 (Bernard Allen, James Bannon, Seán Barrett, Pat Breen, Tommy Broughan, Richard Bruton, Ulick Burke, Joan Burton, Joe Carey, Deirdre Clune, Paul Connaughton, Noel Coonan, Joe Costello, Simon Coveney, Seymour Crawford, Michael Creed, Michael D'Arcy, John Deasy, Jimmy Deenihan, Andrew Doyle, Bernard Durkan, Olwyn Enright, Frank Feighan, Martin Ferris, Charles Flanagan, Terence Flanagan, Brian Hayes, Tom Hayes, Michael D Higgins, Phil Hogan, Paul Kehoe, Ciarán Lynch, Pádraic McCormack, Shane McEntee, Joe McHugh, Liz McManus, Olivia Mitchell, Denis Naughten, Dan Neville, Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Kieran O'Donnell, Fergus O'Dowd, Jim O'Keeffe, Brian O'Shea, Jan O'Sullivan, Willie Penrose, John Perry, Ruairi Quinn, Pat Rabbitte, James Reilly, Michael Ring, Alan Shatter, Tom Sheahan, P J Sheehan, Seán Sherlock, Emmet Stagg, David Stanton, Billy Timmins, Joanna Tuffy, Mary Upton, Leo Varadkar, Jack Wall)
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.
Amendment declared carried.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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As a teller in the last count, I note that Deputy Finian McGrath is missing. As he is, perhaps, rushing in from north Dublin for the vote and may be stuck in traffic, I am giving him a chance to join his colleagues. I would like the Government to think of all the children who will have to walk to school in the coming years. I ask the Government to walk through the lobby and vote by other than electronic means.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The vote will proceed.
The Dail Divided:
For the motion: 76 (Dermot Ahern, Michael Ahern, Barry Andrews, Chris Andrews, Seán Ardagh, Bobby Aylward, Joe Behan, Niall Blaney, Áine Brady, Cyprian Brady, Johnny Brady, John Browne, Thomas Byrne, Dara Calleary, Pat Carey, Niall Collins, Margaret Conlon, Seán Connick, John Cregan, Ciarán Cuffe, Martin Cullen, John Curran, Noel Dempsey, Jimmy Devins, Timmy Dooley, Frank Fahey, Michael Finneran, Michael Fitzpatrick, Seán Fleming, Beverley Flynn, Pat Gallagher, John Gormley, Noel Grealish, Mary Hanafin, Seán Haughey, Jackie Healy-Rae, Máire Hoctor, Billy Kelleher, Peter Kelly, Brendan Kenneally, Michael Kennedy, Tony Killeen, Séamus Kirk, Michael Kitt, Tom Kitt, Brian Lenihan Jnr, Conor Lenihan, Michael Lowry, Tom McEllistrim, Mattie McGrath, Michael McGrath, Micheál Martin, John Moloney, Michael Moynihan, Michael Mulcahy, M J Nolan, Éamon Ó Cuív, Seán Ó Fearghaíl, Darragh O'Brien, Charlie O'Connor, Willie O'Dea, Noel O'Flynn, Rory O'Hanlon, Batt O'Keeffe, Ned O'Keeffe, Mary O'Rourke, Christy O'Sullivan, Peter Power, Eamon Ryan, Trevor Sargent, Eamon Scanlon, Brendan Smith, Noel Treacy, Mary Wallace, Mary White, Michael Woods)
Against the motion: 61 (Bernard Allen, James Bannon, Seán Barrett, Pat Breen, Tommy Broughan, Richard Bruton, Ulick Burke, Joan Burton, Joe Carey, Deirdre Clune, Paul Connaughton, Noel Coonan, Joe Costello, Simon Coveney, Seymour Crawford, Michael Creed, John Deasy, Jimmy Deenihan, Andrew Doyle, Bernard Durkan, Olwyn Enright, Frank Feighan, Martin Ferris, Charles Flanagan, Terence Flanagan, Brian Hayes, Tom Hayes, Michael D Higgins, Phil Hogan, Paul Kehoe, Ciarán Lynch, Pádraic McCormack, Shane McEntee, Dinny McGinley, Joe McHugh, Liz McManus, Olivia Mitchell, Denis Naughten, Dan Neville, Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Kieran O'Donnell, Fergus O'Dowd, Jim O'Keeffe, Brian O'Shea, Jan O'Sullivan, Willie Penrose, John Perry, Ruairi Quinn, Pat Rabbitte, James Reilly, Michael Ring, Alan Shatter, Tom Sheahan, P J Sheehan, Seán Sherlock, Emmet Stagg, David Stanton, Billy Timmins, Joanna Tuffy, Mary Upton, Leo Varadkar)
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.
Question declared carried.