Dáil debates
Wednesday, 14 May 2008
Ceisteanna — Questions.
Independent Members.
11:00 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach the arrangements in place in his Department for providing assistance to certain Independent Members of Dáil Éireann; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3564/08]
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach the arrangements in place within his Department to provide assistance to certain Independent Members of Dáil Éireann; the persons who benefit from this arrangement; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4658/08]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 6: To ask the Taoiseach the number of staff in his Department tasked with providing special assistance to the Independent Deputies who support the Government; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4983/08]
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 to 6, inclusive, together.
These are political agreements that my predecessor entered into as Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party with individual Independent Deputies. I have confirmed to the Deputies concerned that I intend to continue to implement those agreements. As the Deputies will be aware, such arrangements have existed for almost 11 years. The agreements are confidential but they are, as always, based on the programme for Government which incorporates the national development plan, approved Government programmes and annual Estimates for capital and current expenditure.
I intend to continue the practice whereby a staff member in my office assists the Chief Whip's office in its work in liaising with these Deputies. This official will meet with these Deputies on a regular basis and arrange to keep them briefed on issues as they arise. I confirm there is no additional cost to the taxpayer in dealing with these Deputies. The official dealing with the Deputies is an Assistant Principal and he assists the Chief Whip in this matter.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It was not a very exhaustive reply. I note the Taoiseach now refers to the previous Taoiseach as his predecessor.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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A respectful reference.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I understand that. Those elected to the House will make a case for their constituencies. The agreements reached with the former Taoiseach, as leader of Fianna Fáil, amounted to millions for Kerry and international agreements with Deputy Finian McGrath range from Cuba to Burma, although I am not sure as they have not been published.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It does not cover Burma.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Another Deputy said she had an arrangement with the former Taoiseach which was good for everybody but he confirmed there was no such agreement. The Taoiseach said it would not cost anything to keep the service between the Independent Members and the Government alive which is fair enough because there is a person liaising on that basis. However, does it mean that if an issue arises in the constituency of an Independent Member, such as a factory closure, it receives particular attention, a particular response or special treatment through the Government liaison person as opposed to that received by the constituency of a Government backbencher or someone else? Is that the sort of relationship that exists? Is there any special treatment for these Members because they happen to be Independents? As the Taoiseach knows, he is not dependent on them and can make up the numbers with Fianna Fáil, the remnants of the Progressive Democrats and those Green Party men from the other side.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I suppose the Taoiseach will not tell me what is in these deals, if anything. Is it a case of what Deputy Bertie Ahern said in that they are references to the programme for Government but that they apply to the individual constituencies? That is drawing a very fine line between saying they are not going to get anything very much and that there is a reference to the programme for Government.
If these deals exist, do they still stand? Is there anything exceptional in them for those constituencies concerned given that the Government faces economic challenges with difficulties in many areas? Do these deals provide anything over and above what Government Deputies will get? Is the Taoiseach prepared to publish them?
Is it not peculiar that these deals were done with the former leader of Fianna Fáil, who happened to be the Taoiseach, and that nobody is entitled to find out about them? The Freedom of Information Act will not provide us with any information. The Minister of State, Deputy Pat Carey, does not know what deal Deputy Finian McGrath has reached. In the old days, when Deputy Carey was a humble Deputy, I used say to him: "Bide your time, your hour will come". Now he has a seat at the Cabinet table. However, the Minister of State does not know what deal Deputy Finian McGrath has made, if any.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I have put it on the record.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the Taoiseach, in his new-found openness and directness will tell us the story.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The situation is very simple. The Independent Deputies who support this Government came to a political agreement with my predecessor, which I confirmed before I became Taoiseach. I thank them for their support. In fairness to the Deputies concerned, they just want to be kept informed on those areas of policy in which they have a particular interest, on which they have indicated they seek progress and on which their support is based. I will do all I can to ensure that, as with other parts of the programme for Government, I can implement that.
With regard to what the arrangement would be if there was a closure of a factory in the constituency, I would hope that all Deputies representing that constituency would be dealt with equitably. They all represent the people of the area and would be dealt with by me or any Minister in the same respectful way as anybody with a genuine concern about an issue that arises. Nobody here seeks anything over and above the normal courtesies or the normal, mature political relationship one would expect from people who have made a commitment to support the Government. In the context of implementing its programme, the Government understands that many of the commitments consistent with its implementation are dealt with in an appropriate way in recognition of the arrangements.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The nearest I got to finding out what was in the south Kerry deal was the picture at the top of the page, but I understand from what Deputy Healy-Rae said that it included millions of euro. A Deputy from my constituency had some kind of arrangement as an Independent Deputy, but is no longer independent. What is the status of that arrangement? Has it been subsumed back into the normal Fianna Fáil arrangement or treatment for party Deputies? I like the Taoiseach's remark that if something goes wrong in a constituency, all Deputies in the constituency will be treated in the same manner.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is in terms of their interaction with the Government. Supporters of the Government would, of course, be——
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I hope the Taoiseach will apply that when it happens.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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On the matter of the Independent Deputy, the Deputy can be assured Deputy Beverley Flynn will continue to give very effective representation to the people of Mayo. The one guarantee we have for the next four years is that she will deliver far more than those who are in Opposition.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We shall see about that shortly. That was not her line last year.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The position is that the Taoiseach is following the practice of his predecessor and stating the agreements made with the Independent Deputies who support the Government will not be published and the status of the agreements is that they were agreements between the Fianna Fáil Party, or Fianna Fáil leader at the time, and the Independent Deputies.
Has the content of the agreements made between Fianna Fáil and the Independent Deputies been made known to the other two parties in government? Second, have the contents of the agreements been approved by Government, in so far as they involve any public expenditure or commitment to public policy? Third, is there anything in the agreements which is not in the programme for Government? Fourth, if these are political agreements between Fianna Fáil and Independent Deputies which will not be published, why are they not being serviced by an officer of Fianna Fáil and paid for by the Fianna Fáil Party rather than being serviced by a civil servant and paid for by the taxpayer?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The interaction of the Deputies is with my office and staff, who deal with all internal issues, the same as with any other Member. There is a specific contact person for those Deputies through my office, which is an arrangement of convenience for them and me in ensuring the lines of communication are open and effective. The people concerned do their general work but provide a specific contact point. There is no more in it than that, which is appropriate and sensible.
The agreements, which are confidential, are based on the programme for Government. That programme incorporates the national development plan and the approved Government programmes in the annual Estimates for capital and current expenditure. No programme for Government indicates every individual agreement. It goes through the various sectors of Government activity and indicates in broad terms the direction of Government policy as agreed by the parties in government.
In terms of implementation and moving forward on issues, there is obviously interaction between the Deputies and individual Ministers. Deputies continue to make their representations and cases as would any other Deputies. Deputies in the Opposition have the same facility. The situation is there are issues that must be progressed. These issues are consistent with the programme for Government and, in that sense, are not outside the programme. I will not breach the confidentiality of the agreements, but if Deputies want to have an indication of the broad thrust of Government policy, it is available in the programme for Government. Individual decisions by Ministers in progressing those programmes and policy directions, are a matter for their discretion. Sometimes Ministers can make decisions on their own, but other decisions require Government approval. The normal procedures and evaluations are observed. The political agreements are exactly that and we must proceed on that basis.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I want to pursue the distinction between political agreements and agreements relating to public policy and expenditure. It is obvious whatever kind of political sell-out Deputy Finian McGrath did with Fianna Fáil will not be made public unless Fianna Fáil or Deputy McGrath makes it public.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Like Guantanamo, Cuba and all those places.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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There are approximately 1,000 copies of that.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Any matter relating to public expenditure or policy is public business and should be made public. I understand what the Taoiseach has said, that the officer in his Department deals with the Independent Deputies on the basis of public policy. The matters about which they deal should be made public. That is not political, but public policy and expenditure. It is also clear from what the Taoiseach has said that there is nothing in the agreements which go beyond the programme for Government and that is fine. However, if one of the Independent Deputies makes a claim that he or she has agreed something with the Government, such as that there is something in the agreement which is not, as far as the Taoiseach, his people or his blind Ministers are concerned, contained in the programme for Government, or if one sends around literature in his or her constituency or makes an announcement or declaration that he or she has agreed something with the Government that has not been agreed, what is the procedure by which it will be brought to the attention of the Deputy concerned that he or she is incorrect? Do the Taoiseach's people or the liaison officer contact the Independent Deputy and inform him or her that he or she has overstepped the mark and that such was never agreed?
Let us take for example Deputy Finian McGrath, since he happens to be here.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Not looking at anyone else.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Since this time last year when he signed up to his agreement, Deputy McGrath has said a number of things about his agreement and the commitments he received. Has he said anything publicly that is incorrect?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I would not think so. Obviously, he knows what is in his agreement, just as I do. I am not like Deputy Gilmore, probably because I have a different background to him, and do not keep tabs on political opponents with quite the degree of detail he does. In the old days that was a much tighter marking job than we in Fianna Fáil would ever bother to operate.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We did not have Politburos to answer to so I do not know what degree of detail Deputy Gilmore was asked to supply to ensure he was marking his opposite number as tightly as that. We just go for the ball and let it off. I understand what Deputy Gilmore is doing. He is creating a bit of mischief trying to upset the people who support the Government and suggesting they have no deal. They have a very clearly agreed level of support for the Government based on the legitimate delivery on issues they have agreed with my predecessor and which I have confirmed I will do my utmost to deal with on their behalf in an honourable way on the basis that a deal was made. That is my very clear position. The programme for Government is not comprehensive on every issue, as Deputy Gilmore knows. If it were, it would be a very large body of work and that would not be very sensible. We adapt our position to circumstances, we understand the issues and we are mature politicians. There is liaison between us. There is contact, I am available to discuss issues of concern at any time and I will do all I can to honour the spirit and letter of the deals that have been made.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Is the Taoiseach satisfied the Independent Deputies will stay bought?
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It is an agreement.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Is the Taoiseach seeking a refund?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not accept that. Again, Deputy Gilmore is being provocative, so much so that Deputy Finian McGrath returned to his seat. Independent Deputies are not part of the party system in the House. They had an opportunity to speak to those who sought to form a Government to ensure they could find a base by which they could give a level of consistent support while dealing with some of their priorities which are not solely constituency priorities but also wider issues in which they have an interest. We hope we have been able to accommodate the basis of an agreement upon which we can go forward. If Deputy Gilmore ever gets the opportunity I am sure he will try to leverage a few benefits for Dún Laoghaire, if he is able to handle them.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Finian McGrath saw the light.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will allow a quick supplementary question as we are running out of time.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Deputy Finian McGrath not to leave because I would like him to hear what I have to say. No Independent Deputy worthy of the name would allow himself or herself to be whipped for voting purposes by any Government. No Independent Deputies support this Government, only former Independent Deputies, and that includes former Independent Deputy Finian McGrath, who is present in this Chamber. That is the reality and there is no point messing about or fudging the matter. Every one of those former Independent Deputies who vote consistently with Government endorse all this Government's policies, including its decimation of the health services.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy may not use Question Time to make statements.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has there been any renegotiation of the arrangements between former Independent Deputy Finian McGrath and others and this Government on the hand-over of the helm to the Taoiseach, Deputy Cowen? Have any of the elements that were allegedly agreed to by the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, been reconsidered? Given that civil servants in the Taoiseach's and every other Department are public servants paid for by the public purse, should not every Deputy, irrespective of his or her voting position or party in this House have a right of access and hearing and be treated equally by each of them?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Thankfully we have a public service that has upheld that tradition consistently since the foundation of the State even when some were trying to subvert it, and that tradition will continue. Deputy Ó Caoláin's party has decided to be oppositionist and that is its privilege——
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Sinn Féin votes on everything on merit.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Does it? It just happens to be opposed to the Government all the time. I suppose that is just a coincidence. I apologise, I thought Sinn Féin had a strategy but it just makes it up as it goes along. Sinn Féin made a decision to be oppositionist. Before the last election many of the party's spokespeople said what the party would do if it got a certain number of seats, how many people it would talk to and that it would join a Government and do a lot of things. It worked out that Sinn Féin was not in the play. The party should not criticise other people who have——
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We are not afraid of the responsibility——
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I know that. Deputy Ó Caoláin should let me answer the question because I listened in silence to his long question.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach is using his position for posturing for his party political broadcasts on behalf of Fianna Fáil.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am answering the question. Deputy Ó Caoláin is posturing.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The curtain is well drawn back in front of the Taoiseach. He refuses to answer questions.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin should allow the Taoiseach to answer the question.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is Deputy Ó Caoláin finished? I will answer the question as I see it.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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All the Taoiseach will do is take up the position of the master of mutter whom he has succeeded.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin will not be called "Mr. Short Question" around here.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach give us a substantial answer?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am giving Deputy Ó Caoláin the answer but he does not like it. He cannot shout people down because they do not agree with him. That might have worked at one time.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin's veil slipped last time.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will answer the question when Deputy Ó Caoláin is finished shouting. Other people make other political choices. Three Deputies have made the choice that they want to support the broad thrust of Government policy on the basis of coming to an agreement to do things for their constituents. They are entitled to do that. Deputy Ó Caoláin might not agree with it but he does not have to carry on as if he is superior to anybody else. He is not superior. He has made a political choice. He talked down to the three Deputies, said they had sold out, were not proper Deputies and were wrong to support the Government. They made a choice and can live with it. Deputy Ó Caoláin must live with his choice because he does not have as many in his parliamentary party as he thought he would. It is not always onwards and upwards for his party.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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On a point of order——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I hope it is a point of order because we must move on.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I ask Deputy Ó Caoláin to remove the term "former Independent Deputy".
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The artist formerly known as Deputy Finian McGrath.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not a point of order.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I am an Independent Deputy who made an agreement with the Government and I stick by that agreement. Many of the people attacking me today are the same people who telephoned me within 24 hours of my election dying to do a deal. Deputy Gilmore was one of the first out of the traps and Deputy Bruton was second. They should not con their people. The bottom line is I am delivering for Dublin North-Central.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Given the degree to which Deputy Finian McGrath has become excited by this subject now and in the past, and given last week's appeals by Deputy Healy-Rae for assistance for pothole repairs in the Ceann Comhairle's former constituency, I ask the Taoiseach to tell the House if there is a written agreement signed by both parties in each case and whether there is a template or specifics in each case. I do not want to know the specific detail of the agreements entered into with each individual Independent Deputy.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Durkan's leader wants to speak.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I know. Has the Taoiseach reviewed any of these agreements in the past two or three weeks?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Every Deputy is elected by the people through the ballot box and they all have the same status when they sign the register. These deals were private deals done with the leader of Fianna Fáil as distinct from the Taoiseach. Did the Taoiseach see them? When he assumed the high office of Taoiseach did the Secretary General come in to him gingerly with a bundle of files from the safe, like the secret of Fatima——
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Life is not that complicated.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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——and tell him these were the secret deals done with the leader of Fianna Fáil and give them to him so he could peruse them carefully to see if there is anything in them that is not in public policy? If they were private deals done with the leader of Fianna Fáil, has the Taoiseach seen them as leader of the party while he happens to be Taoiseach?
Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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The deals are obviously not working very well because in 12 years Cromane pier, a new bridge for Barraduff and Kenmare hospital have not been delivered, all of which were promised as part of the deal with the Government.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call the Taoiseach. This is becoming a bit like "The Trail of the Lonesome Pine".
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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These were agreements reached with the former leader of Fianna Fáil and confirmed by the then leader elect of Fianna Fáil. Of course I have read the documents.