Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Question 70: To ask the Minister for Education and Science her views on whether the seven universities here face a budget deficit of approximately €25 million, that direct Government support fell by €11,240 per student, 18% in real terms, between 1995 and 2001, that further cuts have resulted in a 32% reduction in the student core grant funding during 1995 to 2005 and that €50 million, taken out of the third level budget in the years 2002-03, has never been replaced; the steps she will take to reverse this serial reduction in gross funding for universities here; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [13214/08]

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I am aware of the annual demands for additional resources for the higher education sector and have afforded significant priority to investments in this area. Spending on higher education has increased dramatically over the periods mentioned. Over €836 million in recurrent funding has been allocated to the seven universities for 2008. This excludes separately provided programmes of funding for capital, research and development and the strategic innovation fund. It represents an increase of approximately 25% since 2005 and an increase of 152% since 1997, when recurrent funding amounted to approximately €332 million.

When all higher education funding is taken into account, the overall provision by my Department for the sector amounts to some €2 billion for 2008. This represents a 230% increase on the 1995 provision.

In terms of international comparisons, between 1995 and 2004, in real terms, allowing for inflation, total public and private spending on higher education here has increased by 74%. This scale of increase was the sixth highest of any Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD, country. Spending per student in higher education increased by 26% compared to 9% on average in the OECD.

Support for reform and development at third level and the creation of world-class excellence at fourth level are central Government priorities. The National Development Plan 2007-2013, recognises the critical role of higher education in the national innovation system that will be the basis of Ireland's economic and social development. The plan identifies the full funding of the sector, over €13 billion through the period, as a key strategic investment.

In 2006, the Government introduced a multi-annual strategic innovation fund for higher education with significant additional recurrent funding of €510 million over the seven years of the NDP. To date, some €140 million has been allocated, of which €100 million is earmarked for the university sector. The Government's strategy for science, technology and innovation also involves major investment in higher education infrastructure and skills over the period of the NDP.

Unprecedented investment is now being made in our higher education infrastructure, in promoting excellence through system-wide collaboration and change, in widening access and in creating a vibrant fourth level sector. These are key long-term investments in Ireland's future.

I recently announced that a national strategy for higher education will be developed which will outline the national ambitions for higher education over the next number of years. This strategy, as part of a number of objectives, will review the current use of resources and identify the medium-term resource needs of the sector.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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A famous commentator whose name escapes me once denounced a response to a question as lies, damn lies and statistics. I do not doubt the Minister's statistics but if I am to believe them I must conclude that the professor presidents of Trinity College and University College Dublin, UCD, were telling lies. Is it a lie that support fell by €11,240 per student, 18% in real terms, between 1995 and 2001? Only the Minister can answer that question. Is she lying and are the presidents telling the truth? Is it a lie that further cuts resulted in a 32% reduction in the student core grant funding during 1995 to 2005? Is the Minister telling the truth and are the presidents lying? Is it a lie that €50 million, taken out of the third level budget in the years 2002 and 2003, has never been replaced? Is the Minister telling the truth and are the presidents lying?

I am caught in the middle. I would love to believe the Minister but I respect the presidents of the two major universities in this country. Their position was further reinforced by a major article, recently published in a newspaper, under the authorship of Mr. Peter Sutherland. I do not believe he has an interest in either promoting Government policy or telling lies. There is a major gap between what the Minister has put on the record of this House and what the two presidents, in an unprecedented article, published in the newspapers. Can we have a resolution to this matter?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The university presidents were selective in their statements on State funding because they did not include the grant in lieu of tuition fees. The figures mentioned by the presidents relating to money given to universities did not include funding given by the State to universities in lieu of fees students would otherwise pay. This type of funding came to around 32% of recurrent funding for universities in 2007. Expenditure on free fees in the third level sector came to €326 million last year.

I understand why the presidents sought more money and I feel the third level sector merits an increase in funding. In my position as Minister for Education and Science I have always increased the amount of money allocated to higher education. Not only does this apply to day-to-day grant funding but it also applies to the strategic innovation fund, which amounts to €510 million and allows universities introduce changes and modernisation. To give credit to the university presidents, they have done very well in introducing change and modernisation in the past few years.

There is no conflict over funding and nobody is telling lies in this matter. The university presidents have simply not included the substantial amount of money I mentioned in their funding calculations. Allowing for changes in the economic climate, I aim to continue the rate of increase in funding that has been seen in recent years. We often look to Scandinavian countries like Denmark and Sweden to compare levels of funding and, while they are starting from a higher base, the rates of increase there are substantially lower than ours. Our rate of increase was 74% and Denmark's was 33%; this shows the commitment of the Government to higher education, and not just at the level of research and development. Fourth level, research and development, is often highlighted but increases in funding have been made at third level, undergraduate level, also. This is where the difference lies between what I am saying and what the presidents say.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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When times are hard, third level is seen as an easy target when it comes to reducing core funding in education. Does the Minister accept that the introduction of top-up fees in Northern Ireland has seen universities there gain a considerable competitive advantage over universities in the Republic? They have additional revenue that is not available to colleges here and this view was forcefully expressed by presidents of universities in this State. What is the Minister's view of the additional support universities in Northern Ireland gain from top-up fees, compared to universities here?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure that top-up fees add to a university's competitiveness. I do not like the higher education league tables that are used internationally but the Government's investment in research and development in universities has led to Trinity College gaining a place in the top 100, UCD gaining a place in the top 200 and DCU and UL increasing their standings significantly by making it into the top 300.

The Government's investment is starting to show on the international stage but I feel it is more significant that the attainment of higher education in Ireland is far ahead of many other countries. Some 41% of Irish 25 to 34 year olds have received higher education, though the OECD average is only 32%. The outcomes of Irish education are better than the outcomes in other countries. Ireland has the second highest retention rate of all OECD countries, so the investment that has been made in support of students is working well.

Every educational institution in the country could use more money but I decided a couple of years ago that, no matter what economic demands are on other sectors, each sector of education is deserving in its own right. It is true that in 2002, as Deputy Quinn mentioned, the higher education sector suffered when things got tight but I feel it is an important part of our economy and we must continue to support it.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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There is a clash between the figures that have gone on the record of the House today and those cited by the university presidents. Is the Minister suggesting that they failed to include core funding for students in the article they jointly signed? Do I understand the Minister correctly? As a consequence their figures, of necessity, must be inaccurate. Is that a correct understanding of what the Minister said?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I call the Minister for a final reply.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I will not refer to the particular article as I do not have it or their figures in front of me. However, I know that in a number of their statements they did not include the fees funding which is given to them.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I cited the article.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. I do not have it with me.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The reply was based on it.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I know they have not taken into account the grant in lieu fees.