Dáil debates

Wednesday, 9 April 2008

Priority Questions

School Services Staff.

1:00 pm

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 63: To ask the Minister for Education and Science the steps she proposes to take to regularise the anomalies, including rates of pay, access to pensions and PRSAs, a sick leave scheme, procedures for grievance, disciplinary bullying and harassment, contracts of employment and issuing of pay slips surrounding the terms and conditions of employment of school secretaries and caretakers; if her Department met, in January and March 2008, IMPACT, the trade union that represents many of the school secretaries and caretakers; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [13414/08]

Photo of Mary HanafinMary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In general the arrangements for supporting secretarial and caretaking services in schools mirror those for providing support funding for the schools concerned. Primary and secondary schools are funded through capitation grants and likewise secretarial and caretaking services are funded by grants related to the number of pupils in the school.

A small number of primary and post-primary schools continue to have caretaker and secretary posts funded under a scheme that was put in place in 1978. This is being phased out as it has been superseded by the grant scheme that I have mentioned. The original 1978 scheme covered a relatively small number of primary and secondary schools. The decision to phase it out was part of a policy decision to spread the support more widely and ultimately cover all primary and secondary schools with funding for such services.

The funding approach adopted for caretaking and secretarial provision in second level schools in the VEC and community and comprehensive sector schools is in line with the funding mechanisms that apply generally in those schools. The amount of funding given to primary and secondary schools is not directly linked to any particular pay rates and furthermore schools have discretion on how to apply this funding across their support service needs. The Department does not have any direct role in determining the pay and conditions under which they are engaged. These are matters to be agreed between the staff concerned and the school authorities. However, boards of management of individual schools are expected to comply with employment legislation and are advised accordingly in guidance from the Department.

In the context of discussions on the social partnership agreement, Towards 2016, an informal forum was established in the public sector to explore several staffing-related issues arising in companies-bodies operating in the voluntary-community sector that are largely funded from public funds. As part of that informal process, the Department has facilitated a number of meetings between the managerial bodies of schools employing secretaries and caretakers and the IMPACT and SIPTU trade unions representing the grades concerned. The most recent meeting took place on 11 March 2008, at which my officials undertook to continue to facilitate those discussions. In addition, representatives of the management bodies of schools agreed to meet separately the trade unions concerned on issues of concern to their members.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I find the Minister's response utterly irresponsible considering that the new leader-designate of Fianna Fáil, Deputy Brian Cowen, announced earlier at a press conference that Fianna Fáil would respect social partnership and an inclusive approach to society. In effect the Minister is presiding over a yellow pack form of employment. The Minister has not answered the question properly. She has not recognised the difficulties presented on 11 March to her officials and her interpretation of ongoing discussions is utterly at variance with the other impression, which was to the effect that negotiations had all but broken down. Deputy Brian Hayes might confirm it but that was the interpretation I took from the deputation which took part in the meeting.

Is the Minister indicating that ongoing discussions will continue with IMPACT and officials have been empowered to engage in constructive and positive negotiations with a view to addressing the illegal labour law anomalies in effect under the Minister's watch in schools in the Republic of Ireland? Will the Minister indicate if she proposes to increase the overall capitation grant for schools so they are not forced into yellow pack conditions of employment, which are an absolute outrage in a country that claims to have the second highest standard of living and per capita income in the European Union?

Photo of Mary HanafinMary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

With regard to the talks which have been ongoing, the Department agreed on 11 March to establish formal structures for dealing with those secretaries and caretakers under the 1978 and 1979 scheme.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is being phased out.

Photo of Mary HanafinMary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Department is not the employer of those employed under the other grant systems. I would be very concerned, as would anybody, if employment legislation was being broken——

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is.

Photo of Mary HanafinMary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

——on those matters. The management bodies specifically asked for examples of where this was happening and agreed to follow up on it.

The Department will continue to facilitate any meetings or talks between the management bodies and unions on the matter. We have issued circulars to all schools advising them of their responsibilities and roles with regard to employment legislation, which they must keep absolutely.

The second question relates to capitation. It is the case that the ancillary grants, rather than capitation, would go towards paying for secretaries and caretakers. The Deputy will be aware we have increased that significantly in recent years and we will continue to do so. We accept this is the money issued for schools. Last year the amount was €65 million and this year it will be well over that because we have increased it again.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will the Minister accept that the approximately 20,000 new members of boards of management, particularly in the primary sector, who have come on board to look after the school in which their children or grandchildren may be students, and in trying to facilitate the best possible support for the principal and staff in the school, are now confronted with a position where the Minister is giving them a miserable amount of money? This forces them into breaking labour law and proper working conditions in order for them to get basic things.

For example, the secretary of a school does not just do paperwork in a back office, he or she is also the permanent receptionist in the school. All primary schools also have a security issue regarding who goes in and out the door. The Minister is forcing boards of management to break the law or else deprive the principal of having support for a secretary. Does the Minister find her response is utterly inadequate, given the vast resources this Administration has at its disposal?

Photo of Mary HanafinMary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Clearly I do not accept the Government is forcing anybody to break the law as no matter what funding is available, everybody has a responsibility, particularly with employment, to ensure the substantial legislation is adhered to. Secretaries and caretakers do a very good and important job but even the smallest of schools receive a minimum amount of money under the ancillary scheme. The larger schools get up to €75,750, the maximum amount available.

The length of a school day and school year is short. In primary schools, for example, this allows four hours work by a secretary, for example, as schools are only open five hours and 40 minutes. The school is open for 183 days. We have stated we will be happy to continue to put down formal structures for the 1978 and 1979 scheme——

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is being phased out. It is irrelevant.

Photo of Mary HanafinMary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That was an employment creation scheme.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I remember it well.

Photo of Mary HanafinMary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There was never any intention to spread out the numbers and increase the personnel in the public service. It is important——

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Department has closed down negotiations.

Photo of Mary HanafinMary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We will continue to facilitate meetings between management bodies and unions to ensure the employment rights of secretaries and caretakers employed by local boards of management have effect.