Dáil debates
Thursday, 6 March 2008
Other Questions
Public Transport.
3:00 pm
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Question 6: To ask the Minister for Transport if he will introduce legislation to effect more competition in the bus market; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9728/08]
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Question 18: To ask the Minister for Transport if he has plans to reform the 1932 bus licensing laws; if he will confirm that he will drop plans for the part-privatisation of the bus sector in the greater Dublin region; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9632/08]
Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Question 35: To ask the Minister for Transport the changing policy conditions that led to his announcement that all plans to introduce competition into the Dublin bus market have been abandoned; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9672/08]
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 6, 18 and 35 together. I refer Deputy O'Dowd to the reply to Priority Question No. 3.
Plans to introduce competition into the Dublin bus market have not been abandoned. The Government is committed to seeing the further expansion and enhancement of public bus services and wants to see a world class service delivered to all citizens. Moreover, the Government is wholeheartedly committed to getting best value for the travelling public and the taxpayer from significant subsidies being invested by the Exchequer in public bus services operated by Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann.
In order to achieve this, we have identified in the Agreed Programme for Government a number of priorities. The programme for Government contains a commitment to expedite the establishment of a Dublin transport authority, DTA, which will have the necessary powers to ensure the delivery of the integrated public transport system envisioned under Transport 21. It is my intention to bring the Dublin transport authority Bill to Cabinet shortly for approval to publish early next session.
In terms of the subvented bus market, the DTA Bill will set out the mechanisms for the award of contracts for this subvention in line with the new regime introduced under the new EU public service obligations, PSO, regulation, which will become mandatory from next year.
The programme for Government also includes a commitment to improving bus services under Transport 21 by reforming the bus licensing provisions of the Road Transport Act 1932, to facilitate the optimum provision of services by providing a level playing field for all market participants, both public and private. It is my intention that plans for a new bus licensing regime will follow in subsequent legislative proposals. Any new licensing regime will be designed in a manner consistent with the new EU regulation on PSO in the transport sector, which was adopted in 2007 and will come into force next year.
While it is not possible to indicate a precise time as to when the legislative proposals on regulatory reform of the bus market will be published, applications for new bus licences and notifications from State bus operators will continue to be processed under the provisions of the Road Transport Act 1932, as amended, and the notification system with reference to the Transport Act 1958, as appropriate.
Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the proposal to change the licensing regime, in particular. Opening up the bus market is an important issue and we all support it. Allowing people to tender for a franchise is very important. In that context, I believe the State subsidy for Bus Éireann is €60 million a year, but I will stand corrected if the figure is not right. The point is that we do not know how many of those buses are PSOs. We need to know which routes are PSO and which are not, so that there is fair and proper competition. We must protect the interests of the taxpayer.
If private operators are prepared to tender openly for a franchise or a route, they need to have an opportunity to bid for PSO routes as well, if necessary. The key principle of Government, with which I have no problem, is that a significant proportion must be protected by keeping it in the hands of Dublin Bus. I have no difficulty with that. However, new commuters from conurbations around Dublin need more buses. Bus Éireann cannot provide them, so private operators are entitled to compete and get into the market. The quicker the legislation is in place the happier we shall be.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Currently a private operator can submit a licence application for any route he or she believes money is to be made on. There is no problem about that. In recent years in particular, the Department has tried to streamline procedures. The 1932 Act, to which the Deputy refers, is very outdated. It is very much a subjective type of approach to bus licensing, there are no appeals mechanisms and neither are there are any real penalties for those in breach of it. It requires reform.
As I told the Deputy earlier, in this whole area of public transport we need to prioritise. To attempt to do everything at once is a recipe for failure. It would be a help to have the DTA in place to allow it to regulate the bus market and check out a number of the areas the Deputy touched on. I have impressed on both Dublin Bus and its unions that the people in the greater Dublin area, and indeed Ireland, want an efficient and effective public transport system. As Minister I must ensure that taxpayers, who are paying the subvention — more than €300 million between all the CIE companies — get value for money.
I have a difficulty and it is something we are investigating in parallel to the DTA preparations, and the Deputy is right about this. I should know, and so should CIE and the taxpayer, which routes need to be subvented, and which do not. We are trying to find this out currently, and I am very committed. While people talk to me about the London model of public transport, I tend to look further afield. There is a good German model, which is a largely public sector-owned transport system. We have something of a mix, and that is no harm. However, my current priorities are to get the DTA in place, ensuring we get value for money, and reforming the 1932 Act, and I shall take them in that order.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil has been in Government for 11 years. First, we heard Deputy O'Rourke as Minister for Public Enterprise, followed by Deputy Brennan, then Deputy Cullen and now Deputy Dempsey talk about a Dublin transport authority. These were 11 long wasted years and people are still waiting at the bus stop. The person waiting at the bus stop does not care about the right wing ideology proffered today by Fine Gael, or by the Minister. All they want is to get the bus. The Minister's right wing ideology, backed up by the Progressive Democrats, has held up the development of the fleets of Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. Before the general election, the Labour Party proposed an increase in the fleet by at least 50%, or 500 buses, to ensure all new areas of the city, and other cities such as Cork and Limerick, would have an adequate service. However, the Government dithered repeatedly.
We will not be considering the Dublin Transport Authority Bill this session and the Minister is going to Australia. Will the Bill be introduced after Easter? The Minister is now talking about another Bill. He told CIE one thing and The Sunday Business Post another, and he is now telling us something different. All in all, nothing has been achieved. We want to get the buses on the road because, as the Minister knows, we must depend on them until major infrastructure comes on stream in 2015. Only buses can provide the backbone of public transport and it is the Minister's job to provide them. He should forget about the ideology, be it that of Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil or the Progressive Democrats, and get the fleet up to scratch. Let us have a decent fleet. At present, people are waiting for such a fleet in Swords, which is likely to have 100,000 people, Blanchardstown, Tallaght, other parts of Dublin, the north and south of Cork city, Limerick and Galway. The routes are frozen and the State bus company is not allowed to add to its fleet.
I remind Deputy O'Dowd that the subsidy to Dublin Bus is the lowest given to any major operator in the European Union. It is the Minister's job to provide the buses to transport passengers to work, school or hospital. He should stop dithering and talking. We could have passed the relevant legislation 11 years ago and, therefore, what is happening is a complete nonsense.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I am delighted Deputy Broughan got that off his chest. I was wondering how long it would take him today. I am surprised the Deputy believes my view that we should have a public transport system akin to that in Germany represents right-wing ideology. It is more to the left.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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A few weeks ago, the Minister told The Sunday Business Post he was to do the opposite. He does not know where he stands.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I am probably to the left of the Deputy on many issues, despite all his semantics and rantings in the House.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The Minister certainly was not to the left on student fees.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I will not buy extra buses given that, because of a variety of practices, I am pretty certain I am not getting value for those in the fleet at present. I will not provide them to Dublin Bus——
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The Minister should outline the practices.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I will not. The Deputy should consult some of his friends in Liberty Hall or some such place.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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They might be able to tell the Deputy some of the factors.
I talk to the commuters and they say exactly what the Deputy says, that is, they do not care who provides the buses and just want them on the routes.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The buses should be provided. This could have been addressed 11 years ago.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I happen to believe we should have the public service buses on the routes. If the Deputy wants me to start putting buses on routes, I can do so at his request, but——
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Dublin Bus wants 350 buses but the Minister will not give them to it.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Who says the existing ones are being used effectively? Neither I nor the Deputy knows the answer to that and I will not spend taxpayers' money — €250,000 on every bus and €80,000 in current expenditure — until I know I am getting value for the buses currently in operation.
I agree with the Deputy that we need a good bus service. We need more routes, including radial and orbital routes, and we need to ensure that when we commence the works in the city centre under Transport 21, we will have a bus service we can stand over and which will accommodate passengers throughout the city.
We want to try to keep the traffic in the city flowing. The only way this can be achieved is through a flexible public transport system with flexible works, not with nonsense involving 25 or 30 buses parked on Marlborough Street, Parnell Square or O'Connell Street taking up road space while the drivers go to have a cup of tea. That is not the kind of service I want to provide. Most people do not want that, be they employed by Dublin Bus or another organisation. I want a good, efficient, economical bus service that can be delivered to the public with flexibility. This is what the public wants and what I will give it.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I commend the Minister on his work on keeping the House informed about his various reforms. He has been a reforming Minister in all the Departments for which he has been responsible and I commend him in this regard. He is taking the right approach by establishing the Dublin Transportation Authority and reforming the 1932 Act. It is a surprise that it has not yet been reformed but that is the fault of many Governments of many political hues.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The Deputy's grandfather tried to reform it.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Broughan is out of order in every sense of the word.
Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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He closed down the railways. He had the same surname as the Deputy.
Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should speak through the Chair.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure my grandfather would be very proud to know his name is still being invoked in Leinster House so many years later.
Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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And protected.
Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I am very proud of him.
During the week, an issue arose regarding the popular Patton Flyer bus service from Dún Laoghaire to Dublin Airport. This has been operating very successfully and is not in conflict with any other service. Given the reforms taking place, the fact that we are adopting an alternative approach and the fact that an application for a licence has been lodged with the Department for some time, flexibility should be afforded in this case. Although the operator does not have a licence, the service provides a link to the airport and is not in conflict with another route.
Metro West is to extend as far as Tallaght. Can I use the name "Tallaght" in the presence of the Acting Chairman, Deputy Charlie O'Connor? I believe he has a copyright on it. It has been argued that Metro West should extend from Tallaght to Sandyford so there would be connectivity with the Luas. The Minister spoke of radial links and this is one that needs to be extended entirely around the city.
Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I was hoping the Deputy would ask a question.
Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Andrews is quite correct in that the Patton Flyer does not have a licence. It makes a mockery of the transport system that an excellent and very effective service by a private operator must operate illegally. The Minister said the last reform he will introduce will be to the 1932 Act but it should be the first.
I agree with the Minister in that I do not care whether the bus is red, white or blue. It is important to passengers that there be buses available, that we protect the interests of the taxpayer and that the buses in place operate effectively and efficiently. If this is right-wing thinking, I am all in favour of it because it looks after the consumer, the traveller and the ordinary person. All the other ideologies, such as the Kremlin ideologies, are long gone. I do not know if Deputy Broughan knows that even Russia has changed.
Private operators applied to use the Dublin Port tunnel but it took a very long time to grant permission. When Dublin Bus wanted to use it, it was not allowed to do so. The whole system is a joke. Any bus that wants to use the tunnel should be allowed to do so, provided it can pass through it. The stops should be at the bus stops and not in the tunnel.
Let us have a modern, dynamic transport system in Dublin. Let us free up the market and have competition and let us have people in buses rather than cars.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Nobody is stopping anybody from using the tunnel. It is open to any operator provided it has a licence and approval. We licensed the operation of a bus service between Swords and Dublin city via the tunnel. Dublin Bus has been advised that a proposal to reroute four of its six services on the 41X route from Swords through the tunnel must be considered under section 25 of the Transport Act 1958. We have not received an application for consent in that regard.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Is that not a delaying tactic?
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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It must be a delaying tactic. I cannot understand why Dublin Bus would introduce a delaying tactic by not applying for consent.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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It is his Department.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I cannot make a decision on a licence or an approval when they do not apply. It would be better if, instead of writing in to me, they wrote to Bus Átha Cliath and sent e-mails, or wrote to Mr. Joe Duffy or somebody else. If they sent them in to Bus Átha Cliath, they could state that they wanted the company to apply for this so that I can approve it.
Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I must ask the Minister to conclude.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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On the other operation, nobody in this House should condone anybody who is breaking the law, even if the law is inadequate. The 1932 Act is not being adhered to. It is an offence and it must be dealt with accordingly. All the reports I received about the service were that it is top class, but it is an illegal service.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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May I make a brief final point?
Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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We are out of time, but very quickly.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Does the Minister anticipate that the licensing Bill will be before the House in 2008?
Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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"Yes" or "No"?
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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It will depend on the progress we make on the DTA.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy wants me to bring it in, he should consult a little more widely before requesting me to do so.