Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Question 5: To ask the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment his plans to encourage people in receipt of unemployment assistance to take up work in the community, social or voluntary sector here; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8563/08]

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The key policy intervention concerning people on the live register at present is the national employment action plan preventive strategy which was first introduced in 1998 and rolled out nationwide in subsequent years. This process involves a more systematic engagement with the unemployed. On reaching a three month threshold on the live register, individuals aged between 18 and 64 years are referred by the Department of Social and Family Affairs to FÁS, where they are called in for interview and assessment.

Following the initial intervention clients would be expected to progress to training or employment. If appropriate, FÁS employment services and the local employment services will support all unemployed people with such progression, including those over 55 years of age. Clients may be placed on one of a range of employment and training programmes including, in particular, community employment, CE. Community employment provides eligible unemployed people and other disadvantaged persons with an opportunity to engage in useful work within their communities on a temporary basis.

It also helps long-term unemployed people to re-enter the active workforce by breaking their experience of unemployment through a return to a work routine and offering the opportunity to enhance and develop their technical and personal skills.

In addition my colleague, the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, has responsibility for supporting the community and voluntary sector through the community services programme. The objective of this programme is to support local community activity to address disadvantage, while also providing local employment opportunities.

Unemployed persons in receipt of unemployment assistance and unemployment benefit and other disadvantaged groups are eligible to participate in this programme once they meet the criteria which can be found on the website of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, www.pobail.ie.

I assure the Deputy that I will continue to do everything to provide a range of proactive job-related services, supports and programmes to assist individuals to enter or re-enter the active labour market.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his reply. I have a number of supplementary questions. I accept we have made many improvements in this area. There have been many changes and strategies in recent years but there are some areas where I would like to see further changes and where I encourage the Minister to work more with his colleagues in the Departments of Health and Children and Social and Family Affairs, to improve matters.

Let us face the fact that there are a number of people on the live register who could come off it and who could be engaged in training or work. We must try to tackle and focus on them, one way or the other. Community employment schemes are an excellent idea. They benefit the community, the groups for which participants work, as well as the participants themselves, whose self-confidence and self-belief is improved immeasurably. However, the three to six year cut-off point is ridiculous. Initially people participate in the scheme for three years, but with some pushing and shoving, that can be increased to six years. There is a certain category of people who, when they leave community employment schemes, have no real plans and no real hope of picking up another job. They are falling between two stools. There is a certain group of people who will not be lucky enough to get another job. I ask the Minister to consider extensions to the schemes for age groups or categories of people. That must be examined, even if it is not politically correct to mention it. All Deputies have all met people of a certain category who get stuck when their community employment scheme ends. They end up back on the live register or on a social welfare allowance for the rest of their days. That must be tackled.

We must also examine the issue of people turning down jobs because they are afraid they will lose their entitlements and be worse off. Such people exist. People of all abilities are turning down jobs because, although some social welfare payments are gradually reduced, that is not the case with medical cards, other health benefits and rent allowance. In that context, it is very often not worth people's while to take up a job. That must be changed. We must do all we can to ensure that people can accept jobs. This is not the sole responsibility of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. He must work with his colleagues on that area.

There is a category of people who are receiving the job-seekers allowance who have no intention of ever working. We all know such people exist. It is not good enough and it is not fair that a certain percentage of people who are physically able to work do not want to work. We must increase our efforts to get those people into training or work so they can give something back to their communities. Their contribution would be gratefully received by many community groups and in many areas like estate or town maintenance. It is wrong that people who are well able to work are getting through the system and spending most of their time at home, rather than working. It is not good enough. I am not referring to people who cannot work, but to people who will not work. A percentage of people are well able to work and should be out there, contributing to society, which would benefit the taxpayer and the individuals concerned. It is not right for people to spend too much time on their own, not contributing in any way to society. These are the main areas in which I would like to see changes.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That was a very lengthy question but I welcome some of the suggestions made by the Deputy. I accept the broader point that we must do more in terms of labour activation measures. I am not so sure there are huge numbers of people out there deciding not to work.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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There is, let us face facts. There is a certain percentage.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not accept that totally. We have reduced the threshold in the preventative plan from six months to three. I met people in my clinic recently who had been working for 20 or 30 years, who said they thought they were entitled to their PRSI. They were only two weeks unemployed and felt they were being put through the wringer in terms of lining up another job. I cannot say what the Deputy has just said with the same conviction. My experience is that the situation has tightened very significantly in recent times and the unemployment payment is only made available to those who can prove they are genuinely seeking work.

I accept that in every part of life we will have people who will try to evade schemes and break the rules. However, the fact the threshold has been reduced to three months makes it more difficult for such people to do so. The Deputy is right to a certain extent, although I do not have exact percentages to hand——

Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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We are almost out of time.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I beg the tolerance of the Chair, particularly as I mentioned him in glowing terms in the Tallaght Institute of Technology approximately two hours ago——

Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, I heard about that Minister. Go ahead.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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We will go into overtime now that Tallaght is playing.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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We have not had the Cork versus Meath match yet.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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When the interviews take place in FÁS and with the Department of Social and Family Affairs, a very significant percentage of interviewees do not come back for a second interview and go back to employment. That has been a feature of our plan and a very effective part of it.

On the other hand, in the broad area of disability and unemployment, we must do better than we have done in the last decade. In the time of the Celtic tiger, between 4% to 4.5% of our people were unemployed. The challenge for us is to determine what we need to do to get those who have been almost permanently unemployed into the labour market. There is an interdepartmental group, including the assistant secretaries of my Department and the Department of Social and Family Affairs, working on that issue. It is dealing with issues of poverty traps, secondary benefits, medical cards and so forth and aims to incentivise people to return to employment. I accept that further work is needed in this area.

On the issue of the community employment programmes, we cannot have community employment forever. There are approximately 22,000 places on community employment schemes. We must recognise that a considerable amount of community employment schemes are now social support services or community support services. The scheme has, over time, turned out to be a very good avenue for people with disabilities to obtain reasonable work experience which they were unable to obtain in the mainstream labour market. I am examining the community employment issue in that context.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his reply. I accept in principle what he is trying to do. However, with regard to community employment schemes, the Minister said they cannot go on forever. I dispute that. Why can we not have such schemes forever? The work the participants are doing is very valuable. I know we cannot have the actual term "community employment" forever, but people on those schemes are doing useful work. Somebody has to do that work and why not allow them to continue through that scheme?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, has developed the role of the social employment through the community services programme, which facilitates exactly what the Deputy has articulated.

The fundamental mandate of the community employment programme originally was as a labour activation measure. It was meant to be short term, to get people back into work. It was never meant to be a community or social support programme.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I accept that.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that we must re-examine the matter. When we did so three years ago, we extended the age limit to 55 years and sent social economy affairs to the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs with €30 million of taxpayers' money, such is my generous nature. We recognised that social economy matters belonged there, not under a labour market measure. In terms of labour market activation, there is potential within my Department and FÁS for the community employment scheme's functions in respect of a significant cohort of the population to be re-examined and redesigned.

Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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We will move on to Ceisteanna Eile. I thank the Minister for his mention of Tallaght.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Not at all. The Acting Chairman's absence was noted. It is an extraordinary event when he is not present.

Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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Do not tell the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We should mention him also.