Dáil debates
Tuesday, 26 February 2008
Leaders' Questions
3:00 pm
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In the debate on the motion of no confidence in the Taoiseach last September, the Tánaiste made great play of political loyalty and how important it is to him. That loyalty led the Tánaiste and his colleagues in Fianna Fáil to support Deputy Bertie Ahern as Taoiseach in September, despite the evidence that he had received large amounts of money for personal use, that he had not been co-operative with the Mahon tribunal and that he had not given a credible explanation for the source of these funds. Since September, the tribunal's work has continued, despite criticism from Fianna Fáil Ministers and an attack from the Taoiseach's legal team.
Last Thursday, as the Tánaiste is aware, more dramatic facts emerged from the tribunal. Fact — more accounts with more lodgements were revealed and assurances given to the Dáil and on RTE that the Taoiseach had disclosed all accounts and all lodgements were shown to be false. Fact — the Taoiseach admitted to getting a gift of money when Minister for Finance and not declaring it to the Revenue Commissioners or paying tax on it. Fact — £30,000 donated or collected by Fianna Fáil personnel for the Fianna Fáil Party was used for the purchase of a house. Fact — this money was only refunded after the tribunal had uncovered its existence. These are not tribunal conclusions; these are facts contained in the transcripts of the tribunal. They are set out in black and white for anybody to read.
Given that the assurances given by the Taoiseach, Deputy Ahern, to the nation prior to the general election that he had no tax issues, that the source of all these monies could be explained and that no further donation revelations were due have been demonstrated to be patently false, I want to know from the Tánaiste, as deputy leader of the Government and Minister for Finance, what action he proposes to rectify the situation and remove the paralysis from Government.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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A couple of weeks ago, the House urged the Mahon tribunal to complete its work on the basis of the confidence we had in it to fulfil its mandate. It goes without saying that such confidence is based on the expectation that the tribunal will operate fairly and with full regard to the rights of all relevant parties. It is in the nature of tribunals of inquiry to structure evidence and to examine witnesses on a sequential basis. In the absence of normal sub judice rules, each isolated exchange can be commented on and pored over publicly and the most outrageous and implausible construction put on it. Deputy Kenny has decided in the context of his job to take over the role of the Revenue Commissioners, he has decided that people are not tax compliant and he has made these decisions when they are not in accordance with the facts.
The Taoiseach is meeting the requirements of the Standards in Public Office Act — we know this to be the case. We know his evidence continues. We know he is entitled to a fair hearing. This House, in the terms of reference that were adopted for the tribunal of inquiry, appointed people to come to conclusions on these matters in the round when they have heard all the evidence and everything has been tested. Deputy Kenny has decided, as his political tactic, to come to the House on a weekly, if possible hourly, basis to put his version of events, or that of his self-appointed spokesman, on the record of this House in trying to brandish assertion as fact. With all due respect to Deputy Kenny, we will await the outcome of the tribunal of inquiry. We will await its hearing of all the evidence. I do not need lectures from Deputy Kenny on my standards. My standards relate to fair play and the hearing of the evidence. They certainly do not relate to people being guilty before being proven innocent.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I referred strictly to facts and not conclusions of the tribunal — facts as outlined from the mouth of the Taoiseach himself in the tribunal.
There is a time for bluster and a time for quiet truth. I find the answer the Tánaiste has given pathetic. I also find it pathetic that the Tánaiste and Minister for Finance stands over all these matters. What the Tánaiste said actually makes him an accomplice to the deceit disseminating from Dublin Castle. That is what the Tánaiste is saying now.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It has emerged in recent days at the tribunal — the evidence is very clear — that what is happening now in the Ahern era is very akin to what happened in the Haughey era. I refer to large sums of money for personal use, non-payment of taxes and money belonging to the Fianna Fáil Party misappropriated for private use. That is the standard. It is now perfectly obvious that what happened in the Haughey era is being replicated in the Ahern era. The sins of the master are replicated by the pupil.
I have listened to a lot of rhetoric and lectures from the Tánaiste to the Green Party and everybody else about clearing things up, how the old ways are gone, never to return, and things are as they should be. If that is the case, as the anointed successor to the Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, unassailable in the betting office, the Tánaiste's hour has come. An opportunity now presents itself to remove this paralysis from Government and deal with it with a sense of leadership and courage instead of collusion and weakness.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste is the deputy leader of the Government. It is his responsibility to deal with the situation, where he can say enough is enough, that we do not want to continue with a situation where the people of Ireland have to sit and endure the sad spectacle of the Taoiseach of the land being decimated by his own words in front of a tribunal of inquiry set up by this House. Now is the Tánaiste's opportunity to demonstrate that political loyalty is fine and well but there is a time when public duty and the good of the people have to be put first. The choice is the Tánaiste's. If he does nothing, he condones these standards and he becomes an accomplice. His leadership would then be epitomised by weakness and collusion instead of leadership and courage.
In the interests of the Irish people, before the next avalanche of damning evidence comes from this tribunal, I urge the Tánaiste to go to the Taoiseach on his return and tell him that the time has come for him to move on, and for the Tánaiste, if he is the one who is chosen by his party, to restore a Government that is concentrating on working in the interests of the people and the challenges our nation faces. I would like to hear the Tánaiste's response as to what he intends to do.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The bluster is very much on Deputy Kenny's side of the House in terms of the game he is playing. The game he is trying to play is not only to try to destroy the good name of one individual, but to try to destroy the good name of a whole party——
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We heard that before about Ray Burke.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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We heard that before.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——whom he failed to beat on the electoral field on a number of occasions. I see a few of the hyenas are in to make sure I cannot get my point across.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The point I make to the Deputy is simple——
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ring is the biggest hyena.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is a lame duck Government. The Tánaiste is a lame duck Tánaiste and the turkey is in Europe.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ring is the loudest one.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Tánaiste should be allowed to reply.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We have the lame duck Government, the lame duck Taoiseach and we are sending a turkey to represent us in Europe. Is that what the Tánaiste wants? That is the way this country has gone under Fianna Fáil.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ring should allow the Tánaiste to reply without interruption.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We all know that even Deputy Kenny cannot control Deputy Ring.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste cannot control the Taoiseach. The Taoiseach controls him.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The situation is that a tribunal of inquiry was established into planning matters and corruption. An unsubstantiated allegation made by Mr. Gilmartin continues to stand against the Taoiseach——
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——that he obtained moneys in regard to Quarryvale from the developer, Mr. O'Callaghan. No supportive material has been provided for that proposition but Deputy Kenny has decided otherwise.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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What about the theft of Fianna Fáil money?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The fact of the matter is that Deputy Kenny has decided as a political tactic to constantly come to this House and prejudge and pre-empt the outcome of that tribunal, not after evidence was given but even in the course of evidence being given. A particular set of circumstances arose in regard to a building trustee account which has been paid back into that account.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It was paid back four weeks ago.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The guffaws are also organised.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Tánaiste should be allowed to speak without interruption.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste should confront reality. He does not realise the damage he is doing to politics and to his credibility.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Shatter only received the confidence of the people recently. They quite rightly rejected him for a while. I have not had that experience myself so I do not have to take any lectures from him.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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That is pathetic.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste is getting lower by the minute.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have to take any lectures from him. I am pleased to say that rejection took place when Deputy Shatter was health spokesman in opposition to me when I was Minister for Health and Children.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the matter before us, we in this party will not take lectures from Deputy Kenny on the tribunal of inquiry. As I understand it, on a number of occasions the judges of the tribunal of inquiry asked people to desist——
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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——from the constant politicising of the inquiry of which Deputy Kenny has been at the head.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister, Deputy O'Dea, listening?
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister, Deputy O'Dea, write about that next Sunday?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Until such time as that ends, Deputy Kenny stands indicted for the tactics he is employing.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Fianna Fáil has no principles or standards and its members are not prepared to stand up for anything. It is disgraceful.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Gilmore.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Fianna Fáil is a party of no courage. Not a single one of them would stand up and say it is wrong to steal party funds.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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He paid them under the counter.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gilmore should be allowed to speak without interruption.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Tánaiste's reply to Deputy Kenny is very loyal and is very good for Fianna Fáil morale. We all know the Tánaiste can lead Fianna Fáil. The question is whether he can lead the country. This country now needs new leadership. The position the Taoiseach is in vis-À-vis the tribunal is one that has moved from benefit of the doubt to incredulity to embarrassment and it is moving on to ridicule. This cannot go on. The country needs to move on from this.
It is all very well to say that the tribunal should be allowed to finish its work and hear out all of the evidence, but how many stories do we have to hear? The Taoiseach did not have a bank account when he was Minister for Finance even though he was an accountant. The Taoiseach was so poor even on a ministerial salary that there had to be whip-arounds in a pub and in Manchester for him. At the same time we now know that there were accounts, some of which were controlled by some of the dig-out men, from which a loan for a house could be granted. The tribunal said the lodgements made to the Taoiseach's account was in dollars but he said he has a banker who can prove it was not dollars but when the tribunal came looking for the evidence, the Taoiseach went to court to stop them getting the calculations on which he based his claim.
The Taoiseach came before the House and stated he is tax compliant. He told the people in a television interview that he had paid all his taxes but he cannot get a tax clearance certificate. We can all stretch our credulity only so far. We could say that maybe some of these stories are true but not all of them. The Taoiseach's position regarding public credibility and political authority is untenable. Clearly he will not go voluntarily but intends to brazen it out. As we saw in the motion of no confidence, the Opposition does not have the numbers to force him to resign. The Green Party will not exercise whatever political position it has to cause that to happen. It falls to the Tánaiste and I am not naive enough to expect the Tánaiste to tell us he will go to the Taoiseach, bring him the bad news and advise him about what he must do. However I expect him to do so and I expect to be able to interpret the answer he gives here as some signal that he will do it.
This cannot go on forever. Politics in this country and the business of government must be enabled to return to the issues of the people. As long as the Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, is before the tribunal giving these kinds of unbelievable explanations, we are in "the dog ate my homework" territory. We need some firm leadership and the only person who can provide that is the Tánaiste.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I disagree with Deputy Gilmore's suggestion that the Taoiseach, in giving his evidence, has compromised his position to lead this country. The issues under consideration by the tribunal relate to a two-year period after his separation from his wife and the settling of his family affairs. As Deputy Gilmore suggested, he did not have a bank account at that time. There was the question of the €22,500, the €16,500 and the €8,000, and he has given explanations about those, which have been corroborated by people who have gone into the tribunal to confirm the nature of those amounts. If the question is that this was obtained, as Mr. Tom Gilmartin suggested, from Mr. Owen O'Callaghan, the Taoiseach is adamant that he did not receive one cent, penny or euro from Mr. O'Callaghan.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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He must have been the exception. He seems to be the only person in the country who did not.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We will not discuss fees. That is the Taoiseach's position. While this is a painstaking and drawn-out process, the Taoiseach is adamant that this is the position. No material has been provided to the contrary. Deputy Gilmore has consistently been of the view that the tribunal should get on with its business and we should get on with ours. He reiterated that here today and I agree with him. However, his contention is that we are not capable of getting on with our business on the basis of the present situation whereby the tribunal is not completed. In his view the Taoiseach should leave office, but we do not agree with that.
The Government is doing its work. It had its Cabinet meeting, made its decisions and is getting on with its business. The problem is that a policy-bankrupt Opposition wants to discuss this issue every day as if it is the only matter going on in this country. The Government is functioning in making its decisions and will continue to do so under the Taoiseach's leadership. We will continue to deal with the serious issues the people expect us to deal with regarding the economy, social conditions, the international financial situation and the responsibilities of the line Ministers' Departments. We have a good budgetary situation despite the challenges we face, which we discussed here for an hour previously. That is the real political situation.
The issue manufactured by Deputy Kenny is that he will tell us what the outcome of the evidence is and we will listen to him and his cohorts for the interpretation or meaning of events.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Here is the build-up.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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During the two years, about which he obsesses, Deputy Kenny's party at headquarters level, not constituency level, was involved in systemic tax evasion, paying under-the-counter payments to its employees, and had to settle six years later, in 2001, with the Revenue Commissioners.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste is pathetic.
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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At least that is settled.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Former Deputy Pádraig Flynn, former Taoiseach Mr. Charles Haughey — nothing has changed.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have heard nothing about standards on that matter. The political arena is not the place to judge anybody's guilt or innocence because those words are not the currency of politics.
Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste would love to have it that way.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is why we established the tribunals. The problem with the tribunal is that it has gone on for so long. That is because we do not have sub judice rules and because of the inadequacy of the legislative framework under which they operate, the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921, which people in this House have consistently debated and highlighted in the past ten years.
The Taoiseach, as has been suggested, is not entitled to go to the courts to maintain and protect his good name in respect of procedures or issues of law, as he sees it, that arise. Deputy Gilmore was incomplete in his suggestion that the Taoiseach would not be prepared to provide documentation which is part of the privileged relationship he and his clients and representatives have with their advisers. He is entitled to seek a judicial review on that matter as he does not have the information the tribunal people have on their bogus dollar claim and how they came up with their theory. The problem is that a series of conjectures can be put before us and turned into fact by Deputy Kenny on the basis that he sees some political capital emerge for him, whereas it is simply consistent with the philosophy that has informed his party since its foundation.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should have told us this before the election. He broke his word.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I agree that the holding of political office has nothing to do with guilt or innocence. The tribunal, in its own good time, will reach its conclusions on whether the Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, received a corrupt payment. The Revenue Commissioners, in its own good time, will reach its conclusions on his tax compliance. Holding political office is not about guilt or innocence but about confidence.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Confidence in the Taoiseach cannot continue when he has given the most incredible of explanations to the tribunal. Deputy Kenny, my predecessor and I did not invent this. When these issues arose in the public domain we took the view, for which we were criticised, that the Taoiseach would give his evidence to the tribunal. He said he wanted to go to Dublin Castle and explain all this. He said he had an explanation for it and had supplied all the documents.
When he got to Dublin Castle we discovered a couple of facts. We discovered he was not quite as fulsome in co-operating with the tribunal as he had claimed. It had been writing to him for a year and a half to extract information from him. Over a series of appearances in Dublin Castle he has given the most cock-eyed of explanations for various matters. As I said, you can buy one of these stories but, given the contradictions emerging between one and another, buying them all is unbelievable. It will continue and that is not good for the country. It is bad for politics, the way we do our business and the attention which requires to be given to the issues of the people.
Yesterday on television the Tánaiste said it was not his practice to talk to the Taoiseach about his evidence at the tribunal before he gave it, and I accept that, I would not expect him to have that kind of conversation with him. However, earlier this year the Taoiseach designated Deputy Cowen as his successor. Has Deputy Cowen had any conversation with the Taoiseach about when that succession will take place? Whatever about my believing that the Tánaiste did not talk to the Taoiseach about his evidence at the tribunal, I cannot believe he has not had that conversation with him. I will not have the opportunity to ask a second supplementary question to this so in case the Tánaiste tells us this is none of our business, that the leadership of Fianna Fáil is its business and it will decide in its own time, I remind Deputy Cowen that this House elects the Taoiseach. We now have a set of circumstances where the current occupant of that office has said he will resign at some stage and will pass on the mantle to the Tánaiste. When is that going to happen? While the Taoiseach is brazening out his political difficulties with the tribunal, this country is getting increasingly scandalised by it all and it must end.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Again I do not agree with the Deputy's assertions. He said that the Taoiseach does not enjoy the confidence of this House, but in fact he does.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I did not say that. I said that he does not enjoy the confidence of the public.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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He enjoys the confidence of the public as well.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The confidence in people who hold elected office in this republic is determined in this House. This is the democratic assembly, as people next to the Deputy often remind me. Deputy Gilmore is making an assertion and that is his view. He was defeated in making that view known in a recent electoral contest, and he was defeated in this House last October. I suspect he would be defeated again were he to try, as he suggests himself. The Taoiseach has the confidence of this assembly, so the Deputy's assertion that he does not is incorrect.
There are no designated successors in this or any other party. The Taoiseach candidly revealed his personal preference, but he said that it is a matter for everyone in this party to decide the next leader. I will not make any such presumption on the identity of the next leader. While he holds the leadership of this party and enjoys the confidence of the House and this party, he will lead this party.