Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Question 104: To ask the Minister for Education and Science the effective rate of interest for each contract, in respect of the third level public private partnership programme, designed to procure additional built capacity for third level institutions; the duration of the period of payment; if the repair and maintenance clauses are included in the overall capital sum involved or if they are a separate contract on a costed basis; the person who will be the owner of the property during the period of repayment; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [6065/08]

Jack Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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Question 113: To ask the Minister for Education and Science the interest rate being charged by the preferred tenderer which is being procured by the National Development Finance Agency in respect of the first bundle of major projects in the third level public private partnership programme, announced on 15 January 2008; the duration of the first bundle three contracts; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [6041/08]

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 104 and 113 together.

In January of this year, I announced the bundling arrangements for the delivery of public private partnership, PPP, projects in nine separate third level institutions. The first bundle includes library projects at Limerick Institute of Technology, the University of Limerick and Cork Institute of Technology and a digital media building, workshops and multi-purpose hall at Dún Laoghaire Institute of Art, Design and Technology, DLIADT.

The second bundle includes an engineering and science building, architecture building and business and enterprise extension at the Waterford Institute of Technology; and a catering and tourism building, multi-purpose centre and engineering building at the Institute of Technology in Tallaght.

The third bundle includes a mathematical sciences and computer centre at the National University of Ireland, Maynooth; a teaching research wing, new administration and support centre at Carlow Institute of Technology; and an engineering school at the Galway-Mayo Institute of Technology.

Following my announcement, pre-procurement work consisting of the preparation of output specifications, the public service benchmark and applications for outline planning permission is ongoing in my Department for the first bundle of projects. On completion of these key tasks, it is envisaged that this bundle will be offered to the market by the National Development Finance Agency, NTFA, by the third quarter this year. In the meantime, work will continue on the second and third bundles.

As we are still at the pre-procurement stage, all technical, legal and financial matters including the interest rate being charged, will not be finalised until the tender process has been completed. Therefore, it is not possible to indicate the interest rate being charged by the successful bidders for the three bundles at this stage. It is proposed that the concession period for the operation of all three bundles will be 25 years.

All costs associated with the provision and maintenance of the buildings will be taken into account in the preparation of the public service benchmark, including the cost of repairs and maintenance for the duration of the contract. The cost of repairs and maintenance for the concession period must be included by shortlisted bidders in the overall contract and cost.

The buildings will remain in State ownership for the duration of the contract and the PPP company will be granted a licence to build the facilities and maintain and operate them for a period of 25 years.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for her reply, and I know it is a complex area. Do I understand that she will not be able to answer the questions, specifically Question No. 104, as to the effective rate of interest until the third quarter of this year?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Subject to correction, I would say not before the tender process has been completed for the first bundle. The second and third bundles will go out then.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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When will that be?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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It is envisaged that this will be the third quarter of the year.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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As regards the first bundle, the tenders will be in by the autumn of this year, so as not to confuse two numbers, and the tender price will include the rate of interest the PPP tenderer proposes to charge.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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That is correct.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Can the Minister give me an undertaking that she will have that information available in the autumn, and not reply to the effect that it is a matter for the NTFA and has nothing to do with her Department?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I am not aware that I have answered questions on this particular issue before.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I have never been here before.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is not the only person who has sat in that seat. I do not know the actual procedures about answering his questions on the NTFA. However, I can give him some indication. I have the information as regards the three previous PPPs, so I do not envisage there should be a difficulty. I shall certainly report back to the Deputy.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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They were not necessarily procured through the NDFA, were they?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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No, they were not. The NDFA has come in since.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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This is my point, in the interests of transparency. No doubt the Minister's officials will advise that if this is left to the NDFA I cannot ask questions from that body because it is outside the remit of parliamentary questions, in which case the Minister has no responsibility. I am trying to establish whether it is cheaper to use the traditional capital programme of the State by borrowing or by raising extra capital, as distinct from paying through the public private partnership process. The chartered accountant beside the Minister, Deputy Michael Ahern, will no doubt be able to elaborate in some detail as to whether we are going to be ripped off for projects for which there is no market risk whatsoever.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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It is also important to recognise that the value can only be assessed over a period of 25 years and the way in which the risks were transferred has to be considered. These will be accelerated projects and might not have been delivered as quickly under our own capital programme. Equally it must be considered that management is built into the project. This must all be taken into account when looking at the figures. We learned from the first bundle of schools and we took on board all the recommendations of the pilot project. The interest rate charged on those projects was 6.196%. The interest rate on the National Maritime Museum was 5.563% and 4.5% on the Cork School of Music. When one takes into consideration the 25 years, the management of the projects being included and the state-of-the-art buildings, these have been very good value for money.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will allow a brief supplementary question. I am anxious to get to the last question.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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On the information available to the Minister, is the interest rate she quoted a fixed interest rate over the 25 years or a variable rate?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to mislead the Deputy. I will return to the Deputy with confirmation.