Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Question 9: To ask the Minister for Health and Children the consultation she and her Department have undertaken with groups and bodies which represent the interests of older people regarding the fair deal legislation; the bodies that were consulted; the account that has been taken of their views in drafting the legislation; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [2738/08]

Máire Hoctor (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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Since the announcement of the new nursing home support scheme, A Fair Deal, the Department has met with the National Federation of Pensioners Associations, the Irish Farmers Association, the Irish Senior Citizens Parliament and the social partners. The Department also attended the AGM of the Irish Senior Citizens Parliament at its request and participated in a workshop on the new scheme.

In addition, the Department has dealt with queries and representations from interest groups, public representatives and members of the public. All of the issues raised during formal consultation and otherwise were given careful consideration in drafting the Bill. The Bill providing for the scheme is at an advanced stage and is currently being finalised by the Office of the Attorney General. The Minister hopes to publish the Bill as soon as possible following Government approval.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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I do not want to quibble with the Minister of State, but we met representatives of the Senior Citizens Parliament yesterday and they said they had not had any meaningful consultation, as have a number of other organisations. They wish to discuss with the Government their real concerns about the legislation and, in particular, their concerns about its effect on the family home. They are also concerned about the possibility of pressure being put on elderly people to sign over resources to other family members. This is a real worry to people at that stage of their lives, when security, their possessions and their family homes are important to them. There is concern about the effect of this legislation from this point of view. What is the nature of the consultation the Minister has had with these organisations? Was there an opportunity for them to engage directly, express their concerns and discuss how they might be addressed in the wording of the Bill?

Máire Hoctor (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I understand what the Deputy is saying. Only two weeks ago I met with members of the Senior Citizens Parliament and a number of other bodies, allowing an earlier opportunity for consultation. As we speak the Bill has not yet come before us as it is still with the Office of the Attorney General. We are not in a position to discuss the Bill until it is published, which we expect to take place within the next couple of weeks. On its publication we will be able to engage further with the stakeholders and the social partners.

Having met with the Senior Citizens Parliament representatives, I am surprised to hear they felt they did not have sufficient consultation. I understand that the Minister, Deputy Harney, has been in discussion with that group and with others. An afternoon at Farmleigh was dedicated to the consultation process with a number of groups. This opportunity will be there again once the Bill is published.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I confirm what Deputy O'Sullivan has said. Representatives of Age Action Ireland have said they feel they were not properly consulted. Perhaps the legal difficulties being experienced by the Attorney General with regard to this Bill are a consequence of this lack of consultation.

The Minister has given many good examples of how the new scheme, A Fair Deal, is expected to work. In principle, I do not have an issue with this. However, she omitted the difficult examples. With regard to running down the other assets before the family home is affected, what about the shopkeeper who owns a shop and lives with Mammy? What about the publican or the small farmer? This must be clarified. However, the most important issue is the standard of care and protection of patients. A plan must be devised, implemented, monitored and enforced. When I met with representatives of HIQA, they did not indicate they were in a position to do this within a reasonable time. They have not even devised the standards yet, let alone obtained the resources for monitoring, enforcement and inspection of homes. Unless there is someone to enforce standards, there is no point in having them. We must have standards to protect our elderly people. Will HIQA be given the funding to do this within the next six months? My understanding is that it will not.

I hope the Minister will publish the heads of the Bill early to allow ample time for discussion, with no guillotines. This is a major issue for our society for the reasons already outlined.

Máire Hoctor (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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The HIQA report is due on the desk of the Minister shortly and we will not be found wanting in putting together the regulations that will underpin the guidelines when they are finally presented.

The Deputy gave an example of a shopkeeper. The immediate contribution by the applicant towards the cost of his or her care will be based on 80% of his or her assessable income. In the case of a shopkeeper, this refers to his or her earnings, or for an older person, his or her pension. Depending on the amount of assessable income there will also be a deferred contribution of up to 5% of the applicant's assets, such as his or her home.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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What does the Minister mean by running down other assets before the family home?

Máire Hoctor (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I did not make any reference to running down anything.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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It is in the document.

Máire Hoctor (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is not too bad at running down things himself.

The contribution is deferred because it will not have to be paid during the applicant's lifetime, if that is the option he or she takes.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State should make sure she crosses at a zebra crossing.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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Before Christmas, the Taoiseach said the legislation would not, as promised, be published at that time because extra time was needed for consultation. I understand the Minister is now saying that the consultation will happen after the legislation is published. If this is the case, why was the extra time needed? Why did the Minister not simply publish the legislation and then allow a considerable period for consultation? I do not get the impression there has been any consultation since the Taoiseach deferred the Bill's publication.

Máire Hoctor (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach did not defer the Bill. We are working in conjunction with the Office of the Attorney General. This is a complex Bill and we must make sure it is right before it can be published. When we have the proposed legislation before us, the opportunity will then be given for further engagement with the stakeholders.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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So the Bill was not put off because of the need for consultation but because it was not ready.

Máire Hoctor (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely, yes.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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We got a different impression.