Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Question 81: To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Finance if he has satisfied himself with the role his Department has played in driving an effective e-Government strategy. [2570/08]

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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My Department provides assistance to e-Government projects in terms of funding and advice, in the context of providing similar funding and advice to ICT projects generally.

Under e-Government policy this Department specifically committed to developing an e-procurement strategy that included a service for on-line tendering, a shared system for human resource management, an e-Estimates system, and shared voice and data communications infrastructure for the public service. All of these projects have been successfully completed and have resulted in significant savings and improved processes and efficiencies. For example, it has been conservatively estimated that the shared communications approach has resulted in the region of €25 million in savings per annum. Consequently, I am satisfied with my Department's successful contribution to the e-Government strategy.

However, I also want to take this opportunity to comment on the broader aspects of e-Government. e-Government is not just about technology — it is also about making public services more responsive and efficient by a process of analysis and reform of underlying schemes and processes. It is an ongoing programme as technology develops and as our society increasingly embraces technology. Government services must be in a position to meet the evolving needs of our citizens, both those who have access to advanced technology and those who do not.

In addition to the service improvement delivered by my Department that I have listed, I want to mention, in particular, the Citizens Information, formerly OASIS, website providing comprehensive on-line information on all public services; Revenue on-line services, which are used by both businesses and PAYE taxpayers to interact on-line with the State on their tax matters; new services to allow vehicle owners to renew their motor tax on-line; on-line property registration services which have improved service and greatly reduced the process time; streamlined birth notification services, which mean that most new mothers are now paid child benefit automatically; a range of on-line services and systems for farmers including single payments, area aid, animal tagging etc.; a range of on-line systems supporting the marine and natural resources industries including licence applications, scientific information etc.; exam results and school inspection reports on-line; electronic payment systems for public officials, trade suppliers and ordinary citizens; and e-Cabinet supporting the business of Government.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

These services, and many others, have resulted in significant improvements in public administration and in far more being done with less. For example, the numbers of people in employment and thus with tax records has grown dramatically with no increases in Revenue staff, while the changes in child benefit have allowed staff to be redeployed to other areas requiring attention.

Looking forward, the provision and integration of full on-line services is extremely complex and care needs to be taken that we do this as cost effectively as possible. We are making reasonable progress and the recent 2008 e-Government Readiness Index produced by the United Nations shows that Ireland is now part of a cluster of countries including countries generally considered progressive in e-Government such as Austria, Finland, Germany and Singapore.

The Deputy will be aware of the recent report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on e-Government which will now be considered by the PAC. It is popular in the media, and indeed in parts of this House, to suggest that this report demonstrates that e-Government in Ireland has been a failure. Of course the report does no such thing. No objective observer could describe the story of e-Government in Ireland as one of failure. To do so would be to denigrate the valuable work of those who have delivered the excellent projects I have mentioned, and many others. It would be to set a standard for the public service that in Government ICT projects anything less than unequivocal and total success is failure, a standard that in reality no one seeking to deliver any ICT project in the public or the private sector could accept.

This is not to say that there have not been some difficulties and challenges. Some things did take longer than would have been hoped at the outset and some things did cost more than originally expected. We are dealing here with the novel, in terms of technology and organisational change. There is no easy set of solutions. It is clear that the larger Departments and offices which have already made excellent progress will continue to do that as they have the necessary resources, experience and skills. It is also clear that there must now be a greater focus on the small and medium sized public bodies to help them achieve more in terms of delivering on-line services. The public service has already done considerable work in analysing how best to proceed from here. Last year, the Government set up a review of Reach and the Public Services Broker. That review is due in the near future. Additionally, our colleagues in the OECD have been reviewing e-Government in general as part of their review of the public service. I am satisfied that the combination of recommendations from these reviews coupled with the internal analysis that is being done will help us to determine the most appropriate structures, governance and priorities to ensure the continuing success of our e-Government programme.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I am amazed that the Tánaiste is happily deluding himself that the Government is making progress on e-Government. I wonder has he read the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on e-Government. It shows that €420 million was spent and half of the delivery promised was achieved. It is a programme that shows little evidence of substantial savings from the application of information technology, and numerous initiatives started and then abandoned, including ones on housing grants, driving licences and passports.

One may ask the role of the Tánaiste and Minister for Finance in all of this. The Tánaiste was a member of the high level Cabinet committee that was supposed to be driving this. His Secretary General was on the high level committee of Secretaries General that was supposed to be driving this. Once again, the Tánaiste is high on rhetoric but when it comes to delivering results, he is just marked absent. I want the Tánaiste to address what his role was in the failure to deliver this programme and in the continuing failure to have any programme to replace it since it expired at the end of 2005.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not agree with the representation that Deputy Bruton puts on these matters. It is popular to suggest, for example, that the report to which he refers demonstrates that e-Government has been a failure. Of course the report does no such thing. No objective observer could describe the story of e-Government in Ireland as one of failure. To do so is to denigrate the valuable work of those who have delivered the excellent projects I have mentioned, and many others. It would be to set a standard for the public service that in Government ICT projects anything less than unequivocal and total success is failure, a standard that in reality no one seeking to deliver any ICT project in the public or the private sector could accept.

This is not to say there have not been some difficulties and challenges. Some things did take longer than would have been hoped at the outset and some things did cost more than originally expected. We are dealing here with the fact that there is no easy set of solutions.

The report highlights a number of what it describes as cost overruns. In interpreting those, I sound a note of caution for Deputies. Many of the budgets and estimated outturns as quoted in the report relate to different matters. For example, in some cases the budget relates to pilot developments whereas the expected outturns relate to full development, implementation and operation. In others, the budget relates to single year estimates, whereas the estimated outturns relate to multi-year expenditure. In numerous projects the scope was changed from that originally envisaged because the analysts found opportunities to do more or to implement additional process efficiencies or had to deal with changes in legislation or the international environment that resulted in increases in costs over those for which they had originally budgeted. Such is the nature of e-government. This is something that is common across all countries attempting to improve public services in this way.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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When the Minister is asked a difficult question, he responds by reading blather from his file, which is a bit wearing. He was asked what was his role in this regard. This was a programme that, for example in the public service broker, was approved without a budget. There was no matching budget for it and no evaluation of what was going on with it. It cost two and a half times over budget. The programme shows that no substantial savings were achieved as a result of the ICT initiative. Where was the Minister when this was happening?

Programmes were initiated and money spent on them, then they were abandoned. What was the Minister's role, as part of the Cabinet sub-committee, in monitoring these programmes that, having been initiated, wasted significant amounts of public moneys? His role is to ride shotgun on such programmes and ensure that ambitious visions are delivered on time and on budget. This fell asunder while the Minister was at the helm. The Minister was asked what was his role at the helm and why this happened on his watch.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not accept the interpretation the Deputy is putting on events. The purpose of Question Time is for me to provide accurate information. The Deputy may get involved in rhetoric as much as he likes. He talks about——

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I talked about the public sector broker. What happened with the public sector broker?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Allow me to answer the question. The problem is the Deputy is getting an answer he does not like.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Minister gave no answer, just waffle.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is not waffle, it is related to what is in the report. The report highlights some projects that it describes as "abandoned". It is the case that some projects were either halted early in their life cycle or never commenced because it was decided that they were either unlikely to succeed or the situation had changed so significantly that it would be folly to proceed. Had they proceeded and had there been cost overruns, the Deputy would be criticising us for going ahead with them.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Was that the driving licences?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Now the Deputy is criticising us for not going ahead with something, when it was shown in the appraisal that it was not fit to go ahead.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The public service broker was two and a half times over budget. How does the Minister explain that?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Minister, without interruption.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is worth remembering that the public service broker was an innovative concept that was adopted by Government in 2000 as an approach worth trying. Nothing of its kind existed anywhere at the time. Consequently, the project to build it was also, of necessity, a project with significant research elements and because there were no comparators, it was virtually impossible to estimate its possible cost with a reasonable degree of accuracy.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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It is not functioning.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I mentioned earlier——

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The first independent evaluation showed all the planning was deficient.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Shouting now when the Deputy has the information will not solve the problem. The Deputy does not want to hear the accurate information.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should read the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, not just his brief.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have read it and the Deputy is misrepresenting it in public.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I am not misrepresenting it.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is misrepresenting it.