Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Question 8: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will charge prisoners for the cost of their time in prison where prisoners can afford to meet this cost; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32962/07]

Conor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I refer the Deputy to the answer to his Question No. 522 of 4 December 2007 where it was stated that there are no plans to implement any mechanism whereby prisoners would be expected to contribute to the overall cost of their imprisonment. There would be major practical difficulties and costs associated with trying to recover money from individuals who frequently have no visible assets or means of support. There are also a number of policy issues, for example, if prisoners have funds available to them, should claims by the Irish Prison Service compete with claims for damages by victims or the work of the Criminal Assets Bureau?

It is only fair to point out, however, that section 37 of the Prisons Act 2007 provides an appropriate statutory basis for a number of provisions in the prison rules of 2007 which allow a prison governor to charge for access to certain services over and above the standard provision to all prisoners, such as use of the video link, telephone calls and access to materials relating to current affairs such as newspapers, magazines and so on, not related to their imprisonment. The Act also allows for charges to be made to prisoners for goods or services that are not generally available or are not available on an unlimited basis. These include access to electronic devices, private medical treatment or escorts provided outside the prison for matters not related to their imprisonment.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Or a speed dial to Joe Duffy's "Liveline".

Conor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Prisoners are provided with access to health care services on an equivalent basis to citizens in the general community who are covered by the General Medical Services, GMS, medical card. Section 37 of the Prisons Act 2007 allows for the prison rules to provide, where it is deemed necessary on the basis of non-convicted status to facilitate a prisoner with access to elective health care outside the public system, that the prisoner will be responsible for the costs associated with facilitating such provision. Provision of necessary health care to all prisoners on an equivalent basis to that provided under the public health system will continue to be funded by the State.

In addition to the escort costs that could arise in the facilitation of access to elective health care outside the public system, prisoners are charged for escorts outside of their place of detention with regard to civil proceedings against third parties. It is not proposed to charge for escorts where the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform or an individual governor is listed as a defendant or co-defendant in such proceedings. It is also proposed not to charge prisoners for appointments relating to any matters before the Residential Institutions Redress Board.

Access to certain other services in prison is provided without charge and it is not intended to begin charging for these services. For example, no charge is made for the making of a certain number of phone calls. Prisoners are entitled to a daily phone call, including calls to their legal adviser, and this will continue to be the position.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I believe we should study prison conditions because the Irish prison chaplains recently produced their annual report, which pointed out that one in two inmates of St. Patrick's Institution is illiterate. Does the Minister of State think it is right that this Government presides over a prison system that allows juvenile inmates of St. Patrick's Institution remain illiterate on release?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The question relates to the charging of prisoners.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I am referring to prison conditions and believe the issue is relevant to this question.

Conor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I am at a loss as to how this relates to Deputy Varadkar's rather right wing suggestion that we should charge prisoners for their incarceration. To my mind Deputy Varadkar's proposal is rather loathsome because I believe any person with an understanding of our prison system could easily inform him that the people incarcerated in our prisons tend to be from very poor backgrounds. I do not believe that the principle of paying for one's punishment, which is popular in right wing circles in the United States, should be introduced to the Irish prison system.

I do not believe the issues Deputy Carey rightly raised could be addressed properly in our prison system were Deputy Varadkar's proposals to come to fruition. It is odd to hear Deputy Carey speaking out of genuine concern for prisoners in the context of his party colleague's loathsome proposal that seeks to take money from vulnerable people in prison.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State has conveniently used what should have been a reply to Deputy Carey to avoid addressing Deputy Carey's questions. The Minister of State referred to Deputy Varadkar but I should stress that the question does not reflect Fine Gael policy and appears to be the Deputy's personal view.

Conor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I am glad Deputy Flanagan clarified that; I have hope for him yet.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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In view of the fact the Minister of State referred to the prison system and the cost of escorts, can he confirm the new prison at Thornton Hall will have courthouse facilities adjacent to it to minimise expenditure on escorts?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That is a significant expansion of the scope of the question which relates to charging prisoners.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The question relates to prisons, charging the Exchequer and charging court applicants for escorts. Escort charges would not arise if places such as Thornton Hall had adjacent courthouse facilities.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I admire the Deputy's ingenuity in making his question pertinent.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister of State convey to his senior colleague and brother, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Brian Lenihan, the need to examine seriously the report highlighted by Deputy Carey and a similar report made by the Council of Europe committee? These reports indicate we do not accord an appropriate level of rights to prisoners in this country, many of whom are ill-treated and subjected to degrading and inhumane facilities. This matter requires the attention and resources of the Government.

Conor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the clarification that charging prisoners is not Fine Gael policy because such a scheme was attempted elsewhere without great success.

The future policy of the Department and Government will be to build courthouses adjacent to prisons and it is hoped this will be the case with Thornton Hall. I will ask that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform reply directly to the Deputy by letter to confirm this as I do not wish to be too definitive. I understand that public policy is moving in that direction. I share the Deputy's view on prison conditions.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Minister of State referred in his answer to the minimalist provisions in regard to the making of telephone calls by prisoners. What is his view on the unofficial provision? I read today that 2,000 telephones have been confiscated in prisons but there has been only a handful of prosecutions. Is the Minister of State concerned about criminal operations being directed by telephone from inside prisons? Is he satisfied that the system has now clamped down on access to this type of communication from inside prison cells?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That is an expansion of the question.

Conor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but it is a welcome one. Given that we are spending on average €91,700 for a year's incarceration of a prisoner, Deputy Rabbitte is right to raise this issue. I assure him that the illegal possession and usage of mobile telephones to further criminal careers from within prison walls is being vigorously tackled. There have been significant numbers of confiscations recently. In addition, there are plans within the Department to seek out technological solutions that will effectively block mobile telephone calls from being made into or out of prisons in this fashion. This is a matter of great concern to us and action is being taken to deal with it. We hope to see a yield in terms of results in the not too distant future.