Dáil debates
Wednesday, 5 December 2007
Financial Resolution No. 2: Stamp Duty
6:00 pm
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I move:
(1) THAT in this Resolution "Schedule 1" means Schedule 1 to the Stamp Duties Consolidation Act 1999 (No. 31 of 1999).
(2) THAT this Resolution shall have effect as respects bills of exchange drawn on or after 6 December 2007.
(3) THAT Schedule 1 be amended in the Heading "BILL OF EXCHANGE" by substituting "€0.30" for "€0.15".
(4) IT is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).
This resolution provides for an increase in stamp duty on bills of exchange and is not a broader resolution. This includes an increase on cheques, from 15 cent to 30 cent. Stamp duty on the items in question has not been increased since the budget of 2003, when the charge was increased from 8 cent to 15 cent.
It is appropriate that the increase should be made at this time. There are two main reasons, the reductions made to stamp duty on financial cards announced today and the context of encouraging greater use of electronic means of payment. The increased rates of bills of exchange will apply to cheques supplied by financial institutions to customers on or after 6 December and for drafts and orders drawn on or after the same day.
Stamp duties on cheques, bills of exchange and promissory notes have existed for many years. When electronic means of money transfer, such as money transfers, ATM cards and debit and laser cards were introduced, stamp duty was gradually extended to those products to ensure the stamp duty receipts from cheques were not eroded. Credit cards first became liable to stamp duty in 1982, ATM cards in 1992, and debit cards in 2003. The rates of duty and their application have been amended on a number of occasions, most notably in the budget of 2003, when the duty on each financial instrument was increased. Regarding the changes now introduced to stamp duties applicable to financial cards, credit cards and cheques, the stamp duty rates on cheques and other bills of exchange are being increased from 15 cent to 30 cent. This is in accordance with the Government's commitment to move towards a system of e-payment and a reduction of cash-based payment. The reduction of stamp duty on financial cards, combined with the increase in the rate applicable to cheques, should serve this commitment. We have announced a number of reductions today; this is an increase and is part of a move to a paperless financial services industry.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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Fine Gael will oppose this measure on a number of grounds. It is a doubling of charges, from 15 cent to 30 cent. Does it apply to bank drafts, electronic transfer and cash cards, devices that will soon be introduced to Ireland allowing people to put money on a card? It is a stealth tax and will affect the elderly if it applies only to cheques. Most people use electronic transfer but the elderly have continued to use cheques. The budget provides some increase to the elderly but it is a low rate of increase. An increase of 6% does not deal with a level of inflation of 15% across a range of areas.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Labour Party will also oppose this resolution. This is a mean tax increase, particularly for older people and those on low incomes. I refer to those who use cheques rather than credit or laser cards.
Many of us remember much comment in the House and in society in general some years ago to discourage older people from holding large amounts of cash in their homes. People were robbed and assaulted, or murdered in the case of one man, for relatively small amounts of cash in the house. Much effort went into encouraging people to open bank accounts, transfer their pension payments to the bank and use a cheque book for major bills. Many of these people have not moved on to credit or laser cards for a number of good reasons. Many older people are not comfortable with credit cards, particularly the new chip and pin system, because they find it intimidating.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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They are uncomfortable with it.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Using the hole in the wall, the ATM, is something with which those slow in movement are not comfortable. They fear someone will come from behind and whip away the cash. Many people were persuaded to open a bank account and use cheques. It seems this measure is being implemented for the convenience of the banks, who wish to move people from cheques to electronic means, thereby reducing the amount of paper transfers.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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They have a service obligation. We should not increase the stamp duty. There is already a bank charge on signing a cheque. This will make the signing of a cheque——
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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——quite expensive. It is also regressive because it does not take account of the value of a cheque. One pays the same amount for a cheque to pay the milk bill as for the deposit on a house. This is an unnecessary and mean measure and the Labour Party opposes it.
Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Sinn Féin opposes this resolution because people who use cheque books are, in most cases, those with low academic attainment and low income. While I accept that the intent of the motion is to move business and civil society to e-transactions, we will get to that point anyway. The people I described see credit and bank cards as high level, technological devices well beyond them. To penalise them in this way is not fair or reasonable. I am satisfied we will get to where this resolution seeks to bring us in any case. We can spare more time for those lagging behind. This resolution is included at the behest of the banks. I do not care who it is at the behest of, but we should afford these people more time to work their way through the system and we will all live happily ever after. It is grossly unnecessary.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I am opposed to this resolution. There are many hidden charges in the banking system. The Taoiseach referred to the reduction in the charge on credit cards, which I welcomed. The Minister for Finance could do more to expose the hidden costs in the use of credit cards. Many people pay their bill rather than examining the small print. This should be more explicit. Regarding the use by elderly people of credit cards, in many areas of the country we do not have cashpoints or credit card facilities. This is an unfair mechanism.
The Opposition sent out wails of concern when this was mentioned in the budget speech. A comment was made earlier by a member of the Cabinet and I thought it was unbecoming of a Minister to respond in the manner in which he did. Perhaps the individual in question is out of touch with the people. The addition of a charge in respect of cheques is unwarranted because people use cheques on a daily basis.
My final point relates to bank drafts. For a number of years I have been urging the Minister for Finance to track down the uncashed bank drafts that are in existence. Banks are holding tens of millions of euro in uncashed bank drafts. The banks are aware of the identities of the owners of these drafts. In many instances, the people involved are deceased and there is no mechanism in place to deal with these drafts. The position is similar to that which obtained in respect of dormant accounts. When a person passes away and his or her estate is being processed, members of the legal profession never seek bank drafts, they only request statements relating to deposit accounts etc. I am aware of bank drafts that have lain unclaimed in bank vaults for a number of years. This is notwithstanding the fact that the banking authorities are aware that these moneys are outstanding to the estates of various individuals.
The Minister gave a commitment a couple of years ago that he would pursue this matter with the financial institutions. I raised it at the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service but, to date, nothing has happened. Will the Taoiseach give a commitment to follow up on this issue because some families are owed tens of thousands of euro by the banks and they are not aware of that fact?
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Why should people be taxed for paying their bills or using their own money? The banks are paid by people and they impose heavy charges, legal or illegal. Everyone is aware of what happened in Britain last week when people's personal details, which were being stored electronically, were lost. The banks here sent out certain customers' information to other customers. Something similar also happened in Britain. Why should a person be charged, particularly when he or she is already paying the bank, for signing a cheque to pay money that they owe to someone else?
This week, farmers received letters from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food which stated that under EU legislation they will be obliged to use banks from next year. The EU should mind its own business. Regardless of whether people want to use banking services, it is none of the EU's or anyone else's business. If I want to use the bank, I will do so, but nobody will tell me whether I should use the bank. The Ceann Comhairle is aware that on a wet day the banks will take away one's umbrella, while on a fine day they will make one a present of it. I have no sympathy for banks and I have no time for them. What we have been presented with is a deal reached between the Government and the banks.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will not break the bank in any event.
John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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It is difficult to follow that. I support the resolution. Previous speakers referred to the increase in the duty charged in respect of cheques. However, this matter should be placed in the context in which the Minister for Finance spoke when he introduced significant reductions in other forms of transactions relating to credit cards, ATM cards etc. The Minister specifically stated that the overall cost to individuals accessing payment systems will be significantly reduced by the combination of measures he outlined. Unfortunately, the reductions he put forward do not form part of this resolution, which specifically relates to the increase. It is disingenuous and unfair to consider one in the absence of the other. The combined measures announced by the Minister will reduce the cost of access to the system, which is very important.
John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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It is an absolute fact. It just does not——
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Curran is missing the point.
John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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A Cheann Comhairle, I was being——
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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People who use cheque books instead of bank cards will be penalised.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Will Deputy Curran please stop talking rubbish?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Regardless of whether it is rubbish, the Deputy is entitled to make his contribution without interruption.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We agree with the Ceann Comhairle. Even if the Deputy is wrong, he must be allowed to make his contribution.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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It is merely talk for talk's sake.
John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I reiterate that the combined measures introduced by the Minister in respect of reducing charges relating to various cards and the resolution with which we are dealing will result in the overall cost incurred by people accessing payment systems being significantly reduced. The Deputies may not like to hear that but that is the factual position.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There will be savings of €22 million.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Taoiseach. I was not aware of that.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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What will be the income from the cheques?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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It will be €17 million.
John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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The point is that what is being done takes cognisance of the position in which we find ourselves. Of their own choice, individuals are moving——
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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What are the human and social implications?
John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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——from cheque payments to other means of payment.
I take issue with Deputy Morgan's assertion that people on low incomes rely on cheques. That is not the case. There is not one scrap of evidence to support——
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Those people deal in hard cash.
John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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——the point the Deputy is making. It is unfair of the Deputy to make that point. The measures introduced by the Minister will benefit all citizens who use the banking system and that is the relevant point.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Curran is missing the point. It is our assertion that there is a large group of people who may never use electronic means of making money transfers. These individuals are comfortable using cheques and they should be allowed to continue to use them. As Deputy Ring stated, it is their money; it does not belong to the banks. If people want to use cheques to take money from their accounts, they should be entitled to do so. The Taoiseach neglected to mention that this measure will cost people €17 million, which is a huge sum.
My party opposes this resolution. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, spoke about being fair and equitable. What we are seeking is nothing more than equity for people who have money in banks.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I remember very well the whole thrust behind the banking institutions and the Governments of the day encouraging people to use the banking institutions as a means of operating their affairs. Payment of wages and salaries were directed through bank accounts to encourage more and more workers to use the banking system. At one time, people were forced into using a system that may not have been their natural gravitas. They may have preferred, like the Taoiseach, to deal in cash rather than in cheques.
It is important to bear in mind that we forced people into using the banking institutions and we are now going to screw them for a further €17 million via stamp duty imposed on the use of cheques. The consequential downside is that many of these people will be encouraged to find other ways of dealing with their financial affairs. We are all aware of the difficulties with which one can be faced if one is obliged to handle large sums of money. These downsides must be spelled out. People should not be penalised in a punitive manner for using cheques. The downsides are obvious and, accordingly, the resolution should be opposed.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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There is a generational issue at play here. If people only recently became used to dealing with cheque transactions, they cannot now be penalised. It is easy for people of my generation and that which immediately preceded it because we are used to electronic banking, on-line banking, using ATM cards etc., but not everybody is in a position to carry on their affairs in this way, particularly when one takes into consideration issues such as numeracy skills and people's ability to deal with technology.
If the Government is determined to encourage people to begin hiding cash under their mattresses again——
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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——this is the way to do it. We do not want to encourage people to return to acting in this way. We want to make it easier for them to make transactions.
8:00 pm
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to make a few points. On the historical background to this matter, the imposition of stamp duty on cheques, bills of exchange and promissory notes is a long-established practice. When electronic means of money transfers, such as credit transfers, ATM and debit laser cards were introduced, stamp duty was gradually extended to these products to ensure that the stamp duty receipts from cheques were not eroded. The duty, therefore, moved from one to all of those means of money transfer over time. Credit cards first became liable for stamp duty about 25 years ago, ATM cards became liable in 1992 and debit cards became liable in 2003. The rates of duty and their application have been amended a number of times over the years. The last major amendment was in the 2003 budget, when the duty on each financial instrument was increased.
Bank drafts are covered but electronic payments are not covered.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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So bank drafts are covered.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The elderly are making payments by ATM cards. Cards have been combined so that they can make electronic payments, while they can also extract cash from an ATM. They can also pay for goods and services with their ATM cards. Many people are using the An Post service, where they can use one cheque to pay a number of their bills. Credit unions also provide that service.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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What about cash cards? A cash card is a device often used in Europe where people put money from their account on a card so that they can spend it with the card.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Some cards are not liable to stamp duty, such as store cards. The Revenue Commissioners have taken the view that products which are essentially gift vouchers paid for in advance to give a defined spending power to the recipients, often confined to a particular store or stores and usually having a defined life, do not have the characteristics of credit cards or charge cards which offer continuous spending power within agreed limits. Therefore, cash cards are not included. Until recently, these items were primarily being issued by way of a paper voucher card, but increasingly they are issued in the form of a plastic card. However, the underlying purpose has not changed.
From next year, financial institutions will be required to make a preliminary payment in December of each year of the stamp duties on financial cards due to be paid in the following year. The payment will be based on 80% of their stamp duty liability for the previous year and the date on which customers are charged will not be changed. The combination of the increase in the stamp duty rate applicable to cheques, combined with the reduction in the duties on financial cards and credit card accounts, results in an overall estimated reduction in the yield from these instruments of €22 million.
I take the point that there are some elderly people who do not like moving from the old position, but the masses are using the alternative. We are reducing charges on what the great number of people are doing. It is costing us €60 million but we are getting back €22 million. The introduction of the new requirement that financial institutions make a prepayment of stamp duties on financial cards due to be paid in the following year will result in a once-off yield for 2008. Overall, there will be a reduction in this area.
Some financial institutions are doing away with their bank books in their entirety from 31 December. They have been running campaigns throughout the year for people to use ATM and laser cards. Not only are they doing away with their cheques and their promissory notes, but they are doing away with the book. As I understand it, that has been compulsory with some of the institutions. It is not a question of people having the option because the banks are opting out of these products. There were consumer complaints about this issue during the year and people did not like it, but that is the position.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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When I saw this first, I thought an alternative use had been found for the electronic voting machines. I was disappointed with that.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's policy was to do it on the Internet. He was ahead of us and did not want the machines at all.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thought the Taoiseach had found a natural resting place for the e-voting technology which has been lying idle and for which we have been paying rent for the last three years.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are not getting into that now.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Let us go on to the next point. The issue of security has not been mentioned at all by the Taoiseach. Security has been put forward as one of the reasons for this move. I would challenge that because from what I have read, the security for electronic technology has been breached on several occasions in the past few years. It is particularly sensitive with ATMs. I do not know why so much store has been set on this proposal in the absence of advanced technology that can beat scammers.
The other issue concerns what the institutions want, which is fine. However, it is what the customer wants and what is convenient for the customer that should be the primary issue at all times, not what suits the institutions. The institutions will promote whatever suits them, which is the use of whatever means require the least level of employment. From my knowledge of the IT system, I do not think that sufficient fool-proof methods of transmission exist to the extent suggested in the promotion of this idea.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach mentioned that banks are doing away with their books and are going down the ATM route. That is fine. It is an internal matter for the banks themselves and that is business. Should the Government be facilitating the banks by forcing people to switch from using cheques to ATM cards if they do not wish to do so? The Government is effectively doubling the charge to facilitate the banks. It is as simple as that and the Taoiseach is not comparing like with like. Should the Government put penal charges on people that can ill afford them, purely to facilitate the banks?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are all kinds of security issues and customers must be wary. I am not saying that any of these things will resolve all the security problems. The reality is that there has been a very significant move by the public to use technology in one form or another. I do not think the charge is penal. The charge had moved from cheques onto the other methods. The vast majority of people are using the other methods, so we are making the other methods cheaper. Most of them were brought in during the past 25 years, so most people up to the age of 50 are almost exclusively using these methods.
A great number of elderly people also use these methods, following advertising campaigns by the banks about savings and security. I am afraid that people have largely voted with their feet on this issue. The reductions are in the methods that most people use. This increase has taken back some of the €60 million reduction, but not an enormous amount of it.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I must go back to the question to which Deputy Curran referred. The person with the credit cards who does Internet banking will save money as a result of this. However, we must remember the older person who maybe did not have a bank account at all for years, who then opens a bank account and gets used to using the cheque book. Apart from the penalty, the danger is that this will force some people back to using cash and keeping large sums of cash at home, over the shop or wherever they might be, with all the security risks that poses, especially as they advance in years. Some €17 million is a lot of money to take from people who pay only by cheque.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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It is a huge amount of money.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Some transactions have to be done by cheque. One can only pay by credit card or electronically if the person one is paying is able to receive it.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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Clubs and societies.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Many household bills are paid by cheque. One cannot pay the milk man by credit card if he has not the equipment to take it. One must pay him by cash or cheque.
John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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One cannot pay the milk man by cheque.
John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Most of them want cash.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Curran has a strange milk man.
Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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Maybe his milk man does not trust Deputy Curran.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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This is a mean little tax. Let us call a spade a spade. It is being brought in at the behest of the banks to wipe out the cheque and reduce paperwork.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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As Deputy O'Donnell and other speakers said, if the banks want to move in that direction they have means open to them to do so. It is not the State's job to facilitate the banks in shifting people from cheques to electronic transactions.
The Dail Divided:
For the motion: 84 (Bertie Ahern, Dermot Ahern, Noel Ahern, Barry Andrews, Chris Andrews, Seán Ardagh, Bobby Aylward, Joe Behan, Niall Blaney, Áine Brady, Cyprian Brady, Johnny Brady, Séamus Brennan, John Browne, Thomas Byrne, Dara Calleary, Pat Carey, Niall Collins, Margaret Conlon, Seán Connick, Mary Coughlan, John Cregan, Ciarán Cuffe, Martin Cullen, John Curran, Noel Dempsey, Jimmy Devins, Timmy Dooley, Michael Finneran, Michael Fitzpatrick, Seán Fleming, Beverley Flynn, Paul Gogarty, John Gormley, Noel Grealish, Mary Hanafin, Mary Harney, Seán Haughey, Jackie Healy-Rae, Máire Hoctor, Peter Kelly, Brendan Kenneally, Michael Kennedy, Tony Killeen, Séamus Kirk, Michael Kitt, Tom Kitt, Brian Lenihan Jnr, Conor Lenihan, Michael Lowry, Martin Mansergh, Micheál Martin, Jim McDaid, Tom McEllistrim, Finian McGrath, Mattie McGrath, Michael McGrath, John McGuinness, John Moloney, Michael Moynihan, Michael Mulcahy, M J Nolan, Éamon Ó Cuív, Seán Ó Fearghaíl, Darragh O'Brien, Charlie O'Connor, Willie O'Dea, Noel O'Flynn, Rory O'Hanlon, Batt O'Keeffe, Ned O'Keeffe, Mary O'Rourke, Christy O'Sullivan, Peter Power, Seán Power, Dick Roche, Eamon Ryan, Trevor Sargent, Eamon Scanlon, Brendan Smith, Noel Treacy, Mary Wallace, Mary White, Michael Woods)
Against the motion: 71 (Bernard Allen, James Bannon, Seán Barrett, Pat Breen, Tommy Broughan, Ulick Burke, Joan Burton, Catherine Byrne, Joe Carey, Deirdre Clune, Paul Connaughton, Noel Coonan, Joe Costello, Simon Coveney, Seymour Crawford, Michael Creed, Lucinda Creighton, Michael D'Arcy, John Deasy, Jimmy Deenihan, Andrew Doyle, Bernard Durkan, Damien English, Olwyn Enright, Frank Feighan, Martin Ferris, Charles Flanagan, Terence Flanagan, Eamon Gilmore, Brian Hayes, Tom Hayes, Michael D Higgins, Phil Hogan, Brendan Howlin, Paul Kehoe, Enda Kenny, Ciarán Lynch, Pádraic McCormack, Shane McEntee, Dinny McGinley, Joe McHugh, Liz McManus, Olivia Mitchell, Arthur Morgan, Denis Naughten, Dan Neville, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Kieran O'Donnell, Fergus O'Dowd, Jim O'Keeffe, John O'Mahony, Brian O'Shea, Jan O'Sullivan, Willie Penrose, Ruairi Quinn, Pat Rabbitte, James Reilly, Michael Ring, Alan Shatter, Tom Sheahan, P J Sheehan, Seán Sherlock, Róisín Shortall, Emmet Stagg, David Stanton, Billy Timmins, Joanna Tuffy, Mary Upton, Leo Varadkar, Jack Wall)
Tellers: Tá, Deputies John Curran and Tom Kitt; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.
Question declared carried.