Dáil debates
Tuesday, 4 December 2007
Leaders' Questions
3:00 pm
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It gives me no satisfaction to have to raise again matters about which the Taoiseach spoke yesterday. However, it appears the credibility of the Taoiseach as leader of the country is being torn to shreds by contradictions emerging from statements he made here and elsewhere. The Irish people do not give two hoots whether the Taoiseach and Mr. Padraic O'Connor were friends, but it matters to them that they are not taken for fools. The Taoiseach can accept as a fact that a €5,000 donation ended up in one of his personal bank accounts. Could the Taoiseach clarify three important issues as much for me as for anybody else?
On the national airwaves, the Taoiseach told Mr. Bryan Dobson of RTE that Mr. O'Connor accepted that he took the money only on the basis that it was a loan, a debt of honour, and that he would repay it with interest. The Taoiseach told the Mahon tribunal that he thanked Mr. O'Connor for this money. The Taoiseach told Mr. Dobson on RTE that he offered to repay the money to Mr. O'Connor. Those are three statements the Taoiseach made in the full knowledge of what he was saying. I have the quotes and the references here if the Taoiseach wants me to read them out. I am sure he does not. Does the Taoiseach still say he personally thanked Mr. O'Connor for this money? Does he still say he told Mr. O'Connor he would accept the money only as a loan? Does he still say he offered to repay the money? These are three questions directly relevant to three statements the Taoiseach made.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am loath to get into questions I have to answer in the tribunal because it upsets the learned gentlemen. While I accept that I have a job in this House, it is unfair if I have to have a tribunal here and another outside.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It was on television.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will try to answer Deputy Kenny's questions briefly. I thanked Mr. O'Connor and I have no doubt whatever about that. I accepted the money as a loan from the individual who gave it to me. On the third question, I cannot be certain, but that is my recollection.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When did the Taoiseach thank Padraic O'Connor?
Paul KehoeEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach was asked yesterday, and he commented freely, about a false invoice. I have the quotation where he said he thanked Mr. O'Connor in January. Does the Taoiseach still accept that this was a debt of honour and a loan that he said he would repay with interest? The Taoiseach must return to the tribunal to answer more questions. Fundamentally, the equivalent of €300,000 in today's terms, found its way into personal accounts controlled by him. The sad fact is that the public has not been given credible explanations as to how that happened, why, who paid it and for what reason. As I said earlier, the Irish are a forgiving people, but they should not be taken for fools. If there was a simple explanation for this, I am sure it would have been given long ago.
I ask Deputy Bertie Ahern as Taoiseach and leader of the country to spit it all out, warts and all, so that at least the people have the facts. If this goes on, his credibility as the leader of our country will be torn to shreds. People do not believe him. They cannot assimilate the contradictory statements about these payments to the Taoiseach, over this 18-month to two-year period. In his own interest, as the leader of his party and the country, before his credibility is torn to shreds, I ask him to clarify, once and for all, the background to the equivalent of €300,000 paid to him, who paid it, where it came from and why. He might save everybody, including himself, a great deal of trouble.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is important I point out to Deputy Kenny what while recognising as Chair the necessity for political accountability, and its importance for any democracy, it is important to recognise that this House has delegated certain matters to the tribunal which is engaged in a public inquiry into very serious matters. It is not possible for me as Chair, to allow the proceedings of that tribunal to be replicated here while recognising, nonetheless, the need to ensure that there is political accountability. In other words, it would not, for example, be proper for a question to be asked or answered as to the veracity or otherwise of a given statement which was made at the tribunal. We cannot go into that type of detail here and Deputy Kenny will understand that as well as I do. I call on the Taoiseach.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Before the Taoiseach speaks — I referred to the public comments made by him on national television, which he knew he was making and which are completely contradicted by persons in business and other locations, at the tribunal and outside. The Taoiseach spoke freely about this yesterday, in public.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must fulfil my duty to this House as well. I call on the Taoiseach.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should leave it to the tribunal.
Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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We know where Deputy Dermot Ahern is coming from.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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We know where the Deputy is coming from, too.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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He did the job in London well.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Dermot Ahern fell off the tree.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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If Deputy Kenny wonders what I said a few years ago in the public domain, I answered about that extensively in the House two weeks later, back in 2006. I believe I have answered all the other questions as well. My position is as it was. It is my absolute belief that I thanked Padraic O'Connor in January 1994. I accepted the payment on a loan basis. As the Deputy knows, it was to pay the costs of my legal separation.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Did the Taoiseach ever pay VAT on a loan?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Please. Deputy Kenny has just tried to embarrass me into answering him, but I shall try to do it, anyway. I know Deputy Kenny's office continuously refers to €300,000, but the tribunal clarified the figure as £39,000, so why are we getting into that? I did not speak yesterday. Although it is not always easy, I do my best to show a civil attitude towards the media when they turn up. When they turn up sometimes in large numbers and start to push each other, that can be difficult, but I try. Sometimes I am disappointed if they ask me a whole list of questions and when I take the trouble to answer them they just will not publish them, as happened this morning. However, that is life. Anyway, that is my position and the issue——-
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——-as regards it being a loan. The Deputy should not follow his script, when I did not reply with what he thought I would say. When I answer, he should not say I have no answer. Deputy Kenny asked me a straight question and——
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I was talking about when the Taoiseach thanked Padraic O'Connor, and whether that was for a loan or a contribution.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I accepted it on the basis that it was a loan from the individual who gave it to me. If I can make this——--
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny intervened; the Taoiseach has replied and we move on to Deputy Gilmore. That is the way it has to be. Those are Standing Orders.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The nearer I come to the evidence, the Ceann Comhairle intervenes.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I cannot go into this, now. I cannot do so.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The loan never happened, so the "thank you" cannot have happened.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot go into that minutiae because there is a tribunal of inquiry which has been delegated powers to deal with that matter.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Does the Taoiseach accept that what we have heard over the past week further undermines his credibility and erodes his authority? We heard Mr. Padraic O'Connor last week giving sworn evidence which tears apart the carefully constructed accounts of the dig-outs that the Taoiseach gave to Brian Dobson on RTE in September 2006. We have heard claims from the former chairman of the national lottery that as Minister for Finance, the Taoiseach approved that body's involvement in the plan to build a casino on the Phoenix Park racecourse at a time when he publicly opposed the project. It was also at a time while the main Fianna Fáil fundraiser — and the Taoiseach's personal fundraiser — accepted a donation from one of the promoters of the project, coincidentally in dollars, in Manchester.
It appears to me that the Taoiseach is engulfed in all of this at present. All of this is taking place at a time when the country is facing very significant problems. We hear today that 500 people are to lose their jobs in Galway. There is a continuing problem with cancer services. We had the National Women's Council outside the Dáil today and there was a big meeting of the ICA last week, on cancer care services. There was a shooting in Finglas over the weekend, showing us that gun crime has not gone away. Also, there are reports of a decline in Government revenues and a tightening in the economy.
What proportion of time is the Taoiseach now giving to defending himself, as distinct from addressing the many problems the country is facing, which require his attention as Head of Government? Specifically, will he tell the House the dates on which he is due to appear before the Mahon tribunal again? I understand he is due to give evidence to the tribunal before Christmas. Will the Taoiseach tell the House what dates he is due to give evidence before the Mahon tribunal and for how many days he will be preparing for this? Does the Taoiseach expect to be before the Mahon tribunal again after Christmas? On how many occasions does he expect to be back before the Mahon tribunal before it concludes hearing evidence on the module it is now investigating?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not agree with Deputy Gilmore that it affects my credibility or authority, or that I am engulfed in anything. As I do most days, I spent recent days preparing and working with my colleagues on the annual budget which will be announced tomorrow. The answer to the question on time is that I did not time the press conference yesterday but perhaps six or seven minutes is the amount of time I spent on it. I am in the tribunal whenever the learned gentlemen of the tribunal ask me to be there on whatever dates are fixed.
Deputy Gilmore is correct to state there are a lot of serious issues and if he had raised any of them I was prepared to answer them as I have been involved in briefings, but obviously he opted to raise an issue about 1994.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I did not, I raised an issue about 2007. What dates will the Taoiseach appear before the tribunal?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I was not involved in any casino issue in 2007.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I did not ask the Taoiseach about 1994. The Taoiseach will have plenty of time to answer about 1994 when he goes to Dublin Castle.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will not because, as far as I know, the casino issue has nothing to do with the tribunal. I was not asked about it at the tribunal. Deputy Gilmore raised that issue.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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He just did so, as he will see if he checks the record. Deputy Gilmore would be someone before the tribunal as he cannot remember what he stated two minutes ago.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach does not appear to have a good memory either. What days will he appear before the tribunal?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gilmore asked his question and the Taoiseach may reply under Standing Orders after which Deputy Gilmore may ask a supplementary question.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As we spoke about Brian Dobson a few years ago, or a few minutes ago——
James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Now who's memory is in trouble?
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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A second is a long time.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——on "The Pat Kenny Show" in June 1997, I stated:
There will be no casino, no licence, no amendment to the Act. That is Fianna Fáil policy and that is the way it is.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Fianna Fáil actively campaigned against the casino during the Dublin West by-election in 1996. The idea for a casino came from Bord Fáilte.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The background to all this was the proposal to develop a national conference centre. The preferred site was identified at the RDS premises——
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach is running for cover.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——but there was a significant shortfall in the capital funding.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The Taoiseach should answer the question. When is he up before the tribunal?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is on the website.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Quinn does not have a good record.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Put it on the record of the House.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As Deputy Quinn is asking a question, he met them as well and there was nothing wrong with that either.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That is not the question
Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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Why will the Taoiseach not answer the question?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Quinn met the people as well.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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What is the Taoiseach hiding?
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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About when he will be before the tribunal.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is Leaders' Questions and Deputy Quinn is not entitled to ask a question.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The dates are fixed by the tribunal. I do not determine them.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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This gets sadder day by day. The Taoiseach and I go back a long time.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Quinn has no entitlement to intervene in this debate.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The dates for the tribunal the last time I was up changed seven times. If Deputy Gilmore wants to know the latest date on the website he should check the website. I do not check the dates but I will be up before Christmas and it will not affect my job here.
I was answering the question about the casino, but perhaps the Deputy does not want to hear it. I was not involved in anything other than acting totally properly with regard to the casino. When I asked Department of Finance officials to check that they confirmed totally and comprehensively that in no way did I interfere in any improper way with anything to do with the casino.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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We seem always to get only half answers from the Taoiseach.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have only two minutes.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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He now tells us he gave some type of half-hearted approval for the casino.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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He did not state that. Deputy Gilmore is a twister.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Apparently the promoters gave Fianna Fáil two halves of $10,000 and the donation only got half way to Fianna Fáil. The Taoiseach can now only half remember what happened and frankly the rest of us do not believe half of it. The question I am asking the Taoiseach is about his appearances before the tribunal and I ask him again on what dates is he due to appear before the Mahon tribunal this side of Christmas? How long——
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, should look it up on the top of whatever tree he climbed.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gilmore should go back to producing money.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I never delved into that. I do not have a history.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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On what dates is the Taoiseach due to appear before the tribunal this side of Christmas? Has the tribunal informed the Taoiseach that he is to appear before it again in the new year and on how many occasions he is due to do so? What assurances can the Taoiseach give us that he is not a lame duck Taoiseach leading a Government of dead-beats?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I stated, the dates are on the website and they change regularly. The dates are the 20th and 21st but on the last——
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I just answered it. Deputy Gilmore should stop interrupting and listen. I stated the dates. On the last occasion they changed six or seven times. I was to be there in June, it went to July and then early September, mid-September and late September. I do not control that. The dates in the new year on which I will appear will be a matter for the tribunal. I do not think I am answerable to the House——
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Of what dates in December has the Taoiseach been notified?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——on when the learned gentlemen decide.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Can the Taoiseach not answer?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach did not answer.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach stated 20 and 21 December.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is Deputy Gilmore deaf as well as stupid? I answered 20 and 21 December but the Deputy keeps interfering.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps Deputy Gilmore cannot use a computer.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I thank the Taoiseach. What about the new year?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We must come to a conclusion on this because we are over time.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Has the Taoiseach been told he will be back in the new year?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Did they tell the Taoiseach?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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They did not tell me. They will tell me when I finish because that is what they do. If Deputy Gilmore was there explaining some of his past he would find out about it.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The paucity of Deputy Gilmore's argument.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to deal with the casino issues because the Deputy raised them. Having received a report from Department of Finance officials, I do not think that anybody, including myself, did anything improper in meeting various people from various organisations. The point being forcibly made and the story that ran for two days in a national newspaper is that I gave personal approval to some process, which had nothing wrong with it, about a disclosure agreement or a confidential agreement. I did not do that. It was done subsequently in 1998 but there was absolutely nothing wrong with it.
As regards meeting people, I was only one of a privileged number of people that met, but there was nothing wrong with that either. People inside and outside the House who try to state that should at least have the common decency to retract their stories.