Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I want to ask the Taoiseach about the situation arising from the decision of An Bord Pleanála yesterday to grant planning permission for a major incinerator in Dublin city for 600,000 tonnes of waste. The Taoiseach is aware that this incinerator is in addition to the incinerator in County Meath which has approval to deal with 200,000 tonnes of waste. Furthermore, it is in addition to other planned incinerators around the country, one of which is on the M50 and which will deal with 330,000 tonnes of waste.

Yesterday's decision and that for the incinerator in County Meath were based on what An Bord Pleanála understood to be Government waste management policy. However, that waste management policy has had a different articulation in the past 24 hours, from the man responsible for the environment and Government policy in this area. His view is that it is now Government policy to make the incinerator at Poolbeg redundant. That is what he has said.

On one hand we have one arm of Government, namely, Dublin City Council, going to spend €300 million of taxpayers' money on an incinerator to deal with 600,000 tonnes of waste. On the other hand, we have the Minister — the helpless and hapless Deputy John Gormley. He sits side by side with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan. Like the muppets Statler and Waldorf, they comment on everything but are not able to implement anything.

Will the Taoiseach, as head of Government, tell us what is Government policy on the disposal of waste? Is it policy to provide two, four or eight incinerators or is it based on capacity of 400,000 tonnes? Does the Taoiseach agree with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government that Government policy is now to make the approved incinerator in Poolbeg redundant? Is that Government policy?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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An Bord Pleanála has granted permission to Dublin City Council to develop a municipal waste incinerator with a capacity of 600,000 tonnes at Poolbeg. This incinerator is provided for in the Dublin regional waste management plan. That plan is the statutory responsibility of the relevant local authorities led by Dublin City Council. While the Minister has certain powers under the Act in regard to these plans, they are limited and it is quite wrong to suggest he could use any of his powers. Some people outside of the House have suggested he should use section 24 to vary a management plan in a way that would halt the Poolbeg incinerator. That is not correct. The clear advice available to him is that this power cannot be used in a retrospective fashion to seek to halt a project which is already the subject of a contractual arrangement and applications for planning consents.

In line with national policy, the Exchequer does not fund heavy waste infrastructure, landfills and waste energy incinerator plants. They are to be provided as a purely private sector commercial initiative or by way of a public private partnership with local authorities, as this one is, and Dublin City Council, acting for the four Dublin local authorities, has entered into a public private partnership to advance the Poolbeg incinerator. The planning process operates independently of Ministers and of Government collectively. This is as determined by the Oireachtas for very good reasons. The project will also require a waste licence from the Environmental Protection Agency. The waste licence, as with planning, is independent of Ministers.

On the Government policy on waste, the programme for Government identifies the potential for other technologies such as the mechanical and biological treatment, the MBT as it is known, to reduce our reliance on incineration. I raised this in the House when asked about it two or three weeks ago. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, has presented figures produced by his Department showing that with a developed MBT system, the quantity of residual waste requiring disposal, other than landfill, would be reduced to some 400,000 tonnes by the next seven or eight years. These figures are based on waste arising of 3.2 million tonnes nationally reducing to 1.7 million tonnes through a recycling rate of 50%. The programme for Government also provides for a comprehensive review of our overall approach to waste management. That review will encompass an examination of these alternatives to incineration and how they might be promoted. The Minister, Deputy Gormley, has already prepared the terms of reference for this review and has brought them to Government. The steering group for the review process will meet later this week.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is being paid almost €6,000 per week and he has not answered any of the questions I asked him, so I will ask them again. It is the citizens of this city who will becomes the patsies because they will have to pay one way or the other. The citizens of this city, the capital of our country, will pay for the farce that is going on. I would have thought the Taoiseach would have left aside the spin doctors' notes and answered the question he was asked, which was very straight, and to which there is a yes or no answer.

I remind the Taoiseach of what the Minister, Deputy Gormley, said on more than one occasion. He said this incinerator would not go ahead with the Greens in Government. He said, this incinerator would never be built. In fact, he told me when I was canvassing in Rathmines — I met him on his bicycle without the armed guard behind him — that it would be over his dead body this incinerator in Poolbeg would ever see the light of day. To use a pun, it is becoming a hot topic.

Is it the Taoiseach's opinion and is it Government policy that the Poolbeg incinerator, approved by An Bord Pleanála, be made redundant? He has not answered the question as to Government policy on the number of incinerators required on the estimates of Government. Previously the number was eight, then it became two and later it became four. What is the position? Has the Government a view and has it made a decision on this issue? The Minister, Deputy Gormley, has said that he has changed Government policy on waste incineration. Will the Taoiseach explain to the House how he has changed Government policy? What great debate did he bring to the Cabinet that all the members of Fianna Fáil and the solitary member of the Progressive Democrats said, "By God, John, you are right, we had better change Government policy and get away from this business of having incineration as we had originally planned"? How has he changed Government policy? Is the Taoiseach happy that the Minister, Deputy Gormley, is articulating Government policy accurately? If not, has he called in the Minister to explain to him that, as a new Minister, Government policy is a collective responsibility and that he should understand what is Government policy? I would like, in respect of the Taoiseach's position, if he would answer some of those questions directly, without reference to the spin doctors.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The only notes I have are departmental notes. Departmental officials who are experts in this area are not spin doctors, with the greatest respect. I will try to answer the Deputy's questions. As regards incineration, there are two private sector proposed developments, one in Meath for municipal waste and one in Cork for hazardous waste. They have received planning permission and they have also received waste licences from An Bord Pleanála and the Environmental Protection Agency, respectively. It is entirely a matter for the company with these permissions as to whether the projects proceed. The State has no financial involvement as I have already said.

On 16 October when I last dealt with this matter here, An Bord Pleanála had granted permission for the expansion of the proposed plant in Meath from a capacity of 150,000 tonnes to 200,000 tonnes. This is an entirely private sector development in which there is no State or local authority involvement. As I have already said, Dublin City Council, acting on behalf of the local authorities, is proposing to construct a waste energy plant at Poolbeg in partnership with the private sector. We have no direct involvement in this project, which is the subject of applications again for An Bord Pleanála and the EPA. We are precluded by law from involvement in these processes and, therefore, I will not comment on them, and neither has the Minister, Deputy Gormley.

The programme for Government, that is Government policy, commits us to increasing recycling rates and to meeting our targets to divert biodegradable waste from landfill under the EU landfill directive. It identifies the mechanical biological treatment of waste as one of a range of technologies which can be deployed to achieve this. The Minister, Deputy Gormley, has presented figures, produced by the experts in his Department, showing that with a developed MBT system the quantity of residual waste requiring disposal in the next seven or eight years, other than landfill, will be reduced to some 400,000 tonnes by 2016. It is in that context he made his remarks. The figures are based on waste arising of 3.2 million tonnes nationally, reducing to 1.7 million tonnes through a recycling rate of 50%. Some 800,000 tonnes of this can be landfill, without exceeding our landfill directive targets and the remainder can be further reduced by the MBT to a residual fraction of 400,000 tonnes waste that cannot be landfill.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does the Taoiseach share his view that it should be redundant?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am giving the Deputy the calculation and I am giving him——

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I know that but does the Taoiseach share his view that it should be redundant?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is the view I share. The Minister, Deputy Gormley, and his Department see enormous potential for the role of refuse-derived fuel and other technologies in dealing with a residual fraction in a cost-effective environmentally sustainable manner. The regional waste management plants currently in place provide for a substantial over-capacity for incineration of the order of 2 million tonnes. As a first step to giving effect to a reduced emphasis on incineration, the Minister has advised the local authorities that he is minded to issue a policy direction under section 60 of——

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I know that. Is it Government policy to make it redundant? That is what I want to know.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy asked a fair question, namely what Deputy Gormley has done, as Minister, to move the Government to a particular position. I am just answering that question. Section 60 of the Waste Management Act provides that local authorities should not enter into commitments in the context of public private partnerships to guarantee a specific volume of waste to the plant operator, other than in respect of recycling or composting facilities. As a further step, in meeting the programme for Government commitments, the Minister has directed his Department to commission a major review of waste management planning as provided for in that programme.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are way over time.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Very briefly, the Deputy asked a question about the Minister, Deputy Gormley's comment, about making Poolbeg redundant. In fairness to the Minister, he made that reference to the overall capacity required nationally for incineration of terminal treatment. I have already outlined, as has the Minister, that if the recycling and MBT capacity is increased, that can reduce residual waste to a fraction of the waste to about 400,000 tonnes. It is in that capacity that he believes it can be reduced. That is the factual position.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The board took account of Government policy.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That was a very clear answer.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There was a lot of smoke in that answer.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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On 19 April the current Minister, Deputy Gormley, issued a statement chiding the then leader of the Progressive Democrats, Mr. Michael McDowell, on his record in regard to the proposed incinerator at Ringsend. He drew attention to the fact that Mr. McDowell had said in 2002 that he would use his position in Cabinet to change Government policy on the incinerator and make sure it was stopped. He went on to state the Green Party had been very clear that, if it was in government, the incinerator project would not go ahead. He now states that, since he got into government, he has found he cannot do anything about it. He must be the first politician to find on being appointed to ministerial office that he had less power than he had when he was an Opposition Deputy.

What he said is not true, nor is what the Taoiseach has just said in respect of the powers of the Minister. Under section 143 of the Planning and Development Act, An Bord Pleanála is required to "have regard to the policies and objectives for the time being of the Government... [and] the Minister". This was the precise section of the Act on which An Bord Pleanála relied when it overturned the inspector's report on the planning appeal against the incinerator in Ringaskiddy and decided the project would go ahead because it was in line with Government policy. It is the same section on which An Bord Pleanála has repeatedly relied to give approval for roads and a variety of other infrastructural projects, notwithstanding what happens at the appeal hearing. It is in line with Government policy or that of the Minister.

Since last June the Minister has had the opportunity and power to change the policy. Under the Planning and Development Act, he could have issued guidelines, a direction or even made a policy statement that there was a change in Government policy and that the Government was no longer in favour of incineration. If that had happend, I presume An Bord Pleanála, in line with that policy, would yesterday have turned down the planning application for the incinerator in Ringsend. Of course, the Minister did not do that. Instead, the day after the horse bolted, he has announced that he is changing Government policy and will make the incinerator in Ringsend redundant.

I have two questions for the Taoiseach, the first a simple one. Will the incinerator project in Ringsend go ahead? If, as I anticipate, the Taoiseach's answer is yes, what does the Minister mean when he says he will make it redundant? The Taoiseach should not give me all the figures he gave Deputy Kenny regarding the mechanical and biological treatment, MBT, process the Minister will use. What he is talking about is what goes into the brown bin; what goes into the black bin will be dealt with in Ringsend. What does the Minister mean when he says he will make the Ringsend incinerator redundant?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The first answer which I have given is short. There is private sector involvement with the four councils in Dublin. The incinerator project received An Bord Pleanála approval and must go through the EPA process and meet whatever other standards with which it must comply. If it complies with them, it can go ahead.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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They are not going to do it if it is not in accordance with Government policy. Who would do it if it would not be used?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I also replied to the second question. The Minister, Deputy Gormley, has indicated the overall capacity required nationally for incineration or thermal treatment. If we increase recycling and MBT capacity, we can reduce the residual fraction of waste to 400,000 tonnes in the next seven years. That is what the Minister and his Department will endeavour to achieve.

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The answer is no.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I take it from the Taoiseach's response that the incinerator project in Ringsend will go ahead, notwithstanding the pledge made by the Minister, Deputy Gormley, last April that the Green Party would stop it. We are now working in a situation where the project will go ahead. Will the Taoiseach explain why An Bord Pleanála which is required to comply with Government policy made a decision yesterday to grant planning permission for an incinerator with a capacity to deal with 600,000 tonnes if the Government's policy is to limit it to a figure of 400,000 tonnes? I do not doubt the genuineness of the Minister's intentions last April when he told his constituents he would stop the project from going ahead. Has he sold the pass on the Ringsend incinerator off his own bat or did the Taoiseach and the rest of the Government force him to do so?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy knows, this decision has been awaited for a considerable time. The incinerator is provided for in the Dublin regional waste management plan.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is not.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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This plan is the statutory responsibility of the relevant local authorities, led by Dublin City Council. While the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has certain powers under the Act in regard to the plan, they are limited. He does not have powers that could halt the Poolbeg incinerator project.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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He does have the power.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has powers to promote waste management policies. This is becoming a recycling society; we are moving away from a throwaway culture. Recycling rates are increasing rapidly. We are using modern, environmentally safe methods for the final disposal of non-recyclable material. The Minister is driving this policy forward. There is concerted enforcement to tackle illegal waste activity. The Government programme will build on the achievements of recent years and re-energise the national effort to manage waste in a world class fashion. As I noted, there are new technologies such as mechanical and biological treatment — MBT, as it is known internationally — to reduce our reliance on incinerators. The Minister and his colleagues in the Department are endeavouring to increase that capacity. If they succeed, we will not require incineration at the level we would otherwise require.