Dáil debates
Wednesday, 14 November 2007
Leaders' Questions
10:30 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Since the general election, we have seen the true value of Fianna Fáil policies, with hospital wards closed, operations cancelled, home help hours cut back, children's dental services cancelled, suicide prevention training cancelled and a ban on recruitment that has directly hit frontline services in the health area. However, there is one area in the health sector that has seen no recruitment ban and that is the Office of the Minister for Health and Children. Since 2002, the cost of special advisers to the Minister has risen from €206,000 to €666,000.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Will the Taoiseach explain why this is so in the midst of the shambles over which he and the Minister for Health and Children preside? How can he justify the value for money this represents given what is falling down around us?
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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People cannot get four hours of home help.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny continues in his attempt to attack the health service.
Brian CowenPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Will the Taoiseach answer the question?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will answer the question.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is a case of Government and managerial incompetence.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is regrettable that the enormous amount of good service, work in the community and all the other activities being carried out by the HSE are continually attacked in this House.
James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Will the Taoiseach tell that to the people of Longford-Westmeath?
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should take his head out of the sand.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The people of Westmeath and every other county acknowledge the improvements in the health service while understanding the difficulties. I do not understand the question asked by Deputy Kenny.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is making trouble for himself by not answering the question.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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He says he is in favour of the reform programme, that he wants the discussions and negotiations with the consultants and the non-consultant hospital doctors concluded and that he wants to see us move towards implementing reduced working hours for nurses. We want to see the paramedical talks resumed, to conclude the agreement with pharmacists and to improve the hospital development programme. We want to do all these things with fewer staff.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Nothing has been done.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Nobody can agree on anything.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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We either want the Minister for Health and Children to be given an opportunity to obtain best value for money within the €15 billion budget and with a staff of 120,000, and to reform the health system as we have been talking about, or we do not.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Will the Taoiseach answer the question?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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As we know, when Deputy Kenny last saw the inside of a Department there were 55 advisers assigned to the various Departments whereas now there are only 34.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Where did the Taoiseach get that figure?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As with many other issues, the Taoiseach either does not understand or does not want to understand. I will ask the question again. Does an increase from €206,000 to €666,000 in the cost of special advisers in the Minister for Health and Children's office represent good value? If the Taoiseach did not understand the question the first time, I hope he does the second time. The Government calls to mind something Ronald Reagan said — it is like a baby's alimentary canal in that it has a huge appetite at one end and no responsibility at the other.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is time we got to the bottom of it.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is bureaucratic bungling. Ministers can wipe their hands of that until they have to explain to somebody why an operation is cancelled, dental treatment is cancelled, suicide prevention training is cancelled or it is not possible to obtain four hours of home help. The Taoiseach has admitted to me in this House that there is a bureaucratic bulge in the administrative section of the HSE. The Government recognises that it went the wrong way in setting up a structure that is overmanned and over-managed. I will ask the question again. Does the Taoiseach consider that the increase in costs to €666,000 in the Minister for Health and Children's office represents good value?
When will the Government start practising what it preaches? The Taoiseach preaches pay restraint but he is by far and away the highest paid world leader. He does not have a White House, he does not have the yachts, he does not have the aeroplanes——
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is that what Deputy Kenny wants?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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——but he represents 4 million people as against 200 million in some cases and 80 million or 50 million in others. When will he practise the pay restraint that he preaches?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When will we see value for money in the €4 million that is now allocated to special advisers for Ministers whose salaries are on a range from €250,000 to €270,000 and €318,000 in the Taoiseach's case?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I answered the Deputy's question. The staff working for the Minister for Health and Children are working to their full capacity and to the best of their ability——
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I would hate to see where we would be if they were not working to their full capacity.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——and are doing an excellent job in helping the Minister to make the necessary reforms in the Department.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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They are closing hospital wards.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Those in the HSE are working to bring in the reforms that are necessary. I do not accept this ongoing attack on the health service in which more than 1 million people a year are receiving treatment. Hospitals are doing their best and we are spending €500 million a year on the capital programme. In many cases, including in respect of maternity and children's cardiac surgery, figures are never quoted in this House because people just look through reports, as we saw yesterday, find the negative and attack the service. The health service is staffed by highly competent people doing their jobs in a highly competent way. We should be proud of them instead of always ridiculing them.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Does that include the Minister?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am the first to admit where there are problems, difficulties and shortfalls and that we must set about addressing those.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach has had ten years to do so.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Do Opposition Members expect that the Minister for Health and Children and other Ministers can sit in their Departments with no staff and properly manage a budget of €52 billion? That is not possible. This Government is committed to getting the best possible return on all the resources——
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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What about staff?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——-to ensure taxpayers' money is used efficiently and effectively to give the very best service that we can.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Taoiseach think that is happening?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Where we are seeking reform to do that, I would very much like if on some day of the year, for one minute, we would get some support to give a better service to the public, rather than the usual diatribe from the Opposition.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Professor Brendan Drumm is the real Minister for Health and Children.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Government should be carrying out reform rather than talking about it.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I will move to a different issue. I congratulate the Taoiseach and his Ministers on arriving to work in the Dáil today clean and dry at a time when thousands of Dubliners are out there walking through the rain to work. Some years ago, at the beginning of November 2005, there was an extraordinary Government media blitz when the Taoiseach and an array of Ministers set out the plan for Transport 21. We were told this plan would modernise Ireland and all its major cities with regard to public transport.
Our young people have travelled the world and admired transport systems such as subways in the United States or the Far East, trams in Bordeaux or the underground in Lisbon.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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There is the Luas in Dublin.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Those people were to come home and find, in the space of five or six years from 2005, public transport transformed in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway. Here we are in November 2007, it is a rainy day out there and many women like me are having a bad hair day because there is no public transport.
Willie O'Dea
Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The Government is to blame for the rain now.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Burton, without interruption.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Most people out there are not interested in a jet or a yacht, they would just like to see buses and trains and more Luas trams.
What has happened to the plan? The Minister for Transport announced the extension of the Tallaght Luas line to Citywest is to be put back. The Connolly to the Docklands Luas extension is essential to connect up the new Docklands station. I was there when the Taoiseach opened the station; it is lovely, but there is no connection. Such a connection is to be put back because of technical difficulties.
We are being told the proposed new Luas lines, not to mention the metro to the airport, are experiencing difficulties. All the completion dates are going back by one to three years, slowly but surely. The Cork to Midleton commuter rail service has gone back by a year. Apparently technical problems are holding up the Limerick southern ring road. Even the Portlaoise train depot, which was to be built and available around now, is still in mañana land.
Who in Government is competently in charge of delivering the public transport this country needs and deserves to get on with doing its business? Does the Taoiseach believe the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, is up to the job? Has the thought crossed the Taoiseach's mind that the Minister may need the support of his Cabinet colleagues and that of the Taoiseach himself to deliver these projects?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Burton is well over her time.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Where is the Government on the public transport issue?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Transport 21 is thankfully going extremely well.
James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Where is the Leitrim to Sligo line?
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Everything is rosy in the garden.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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We took delivery of 100 buses this year and 50 have been introduced into service. As part of that process of introducing the balance of 50 buses, we now wish to enhance the services to existing routes from Ballymun to Ballybrack, and introduce a new route, the 128, the north fringe buses going through Baldoyle, the Malahide road and Fairview.
Deputy Burton asked about the Luas I promised. It opened about three years ago and 30 million people are travelling on it.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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That was three years late as well.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are seven new Luas projects in Transport 21. The construction of the line to the docks is well under way, as is the Cherrywood extension. The rail lines in Kildare and upgrading of stations in some cases is under way.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The overcrowded trains with no extra carriages.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are two metro lines, one going through the airport and Swords and the other going west. They are both at different stages of development. The engineering and planning work for the underground station at St. Stephen's Green integrating the metro and Luas is under way. The DART extensions in Dublin and the track of the Kildare route is under way.
Most road programmes are well ahead of schedule.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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What about outside Dublin?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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In the Deputy's end of the bailiwick, the Liffey Valley junction will be finished for Christmas, way ahead of schedule.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It will be like Disneyland.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The main junction at the Red Cow will be finished next Christmas, about a year ahead of schedule.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Is it Christmas toys the Taoiseach is talking about?
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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That is ahead of schedule.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Some of the main infrastructural roads, such as the Limerick to Nenagh route, are well ahead of schedule. The project from Tyrrellspass to Athlone will be opened in the new year and work is under way on the Ballinasloe to Athlone route. The third contract to bring it all the way from Galway to Dublin, the Galway to Athlone-side of Ballinasloe route, is also under way. Work on 60 km of road to Cork is well advanced.
Work on the route to Waterford has been a bit slower but it is now under way. It is divided into three contracts. There is one going to Carlow, which is almost finished, as well as the other two. Should I continue?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is great fun, he is great gas.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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My question concerned public transport. I would be the first to acknowledge the National Roads Authority seems to have finally got its act together. The changes by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, regarding funding procedures have helped. Not everyone wants to or can drive a car into Dublin city centre, Limerick, Cork or Galway.
If we want to do our business as a modern economy, where is the public transport? The integrated signalling for the Liffey junction line is still years away, and in taking the train from Maynooth to Connolly station, one finds the locals fondly call it "The Calcutta Express" because people are jammed on trains and there is such a lack of trains.
The Taoiseach mentioned an extra 100 buses. How many of those buses are in service and how many of those are replacements for clapped-out buses which were not replaced for about ten years? How much additional resourcing are we getting? People want to use public transport but it is impossible to do business or go to a job if reliable public transport is not available.
Where is the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, on all this? He gave us flights of fancy on electronic voting and so on. Is he thinking away in some ivory tower? We want public transport now. Has the Taoiseach confidence in the Minister's capacity to deliver? He has already announced to my colleague, Deputy Tommy Broughan, that eight out of 12 of the public transport projects in Transport 21 have had their completion dates pushed back by at least one year. Is the Taoiseach aware of this and does he continue to have confidence in this Minister?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise to the Deputy if I did not mention the public transport end of the issue. There are more than 1,100 new buses at Dublin Bus, including 100 new buses delivered recently. The dispute centres on 50 of these buses being used on the Ballymun to Blackrock route and the introduction of the new north fringe route taking in Baldoyle, the Malahide road, Fairview, the city centre and Rathmines. I wish the chairman of the Labour Court and both sets of negotiators well this morning. I hope they can resolve these issues because it is a wet morning and 60,000 commuters have had to make alternative arrangements.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I hope the dispute can be resolved. It has been before the Labour Court and the Labour Relations Commission and a decision was made by the Labour Court which normally people would be honour-bound to accept. I understand that sometimes that does not happen. In this case the management went through arbitration and the full conciliation process in the Labour Relations Commission. Management went to the Labour Court, where it won its case, and the workers decided to strike. That is the position and they must resolve it. I hope in the interests of the company and the jobs both sides can resolve this issue as soon as possible.
Bus Éireann has over 600 new buses and Irish Rail will accept delivery of 183 new rail cars in the next few years. Our rail fleet will then be the youngest in Europe.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is also the smallest in Europe.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are hourly trains to Cork, as opposed to the twice daily service ten years ago. We are extending services on other routes and I hope people use those trains as originally they were not running because of a lack of use. The Tánaiste and Minister for Finance is giving a huge amount of resources — €34.5 billion — to help and much of that will be going to public transport so people commute on it.
With Transport 21 and the western rail corridor, the new commuter services to Galway coming on stream and work on inter-urban roads under way, the Minister for Transport, the NRA and the other agencies are everyday making further improvements.