Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Question 52: To ask the Minister for Education and Science further to her reply to Parliamentary Questions Nos. 125, 150 and 158 of 2 October 2007 the reason for the discrepancy in the promise in the programme for Government to reduce the primary pupil-teacher ratio to one primary teacher for every 24 primary pupils by 2010 when she herself asserts that the primary pupil teacher ratio already stands at 16:1 as stated in her reply to the parliamentary questions; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [28459/07]

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The referred commitment in the programme for Government relates to a reduction in class sizes, through improvements in the staffing schedule by which classroom teachers are assigned to schools. The pupil-teacher ratio on the other hand, counts all the teachers in schools, not only those employed as mainstream classroom teachers, but also those working in areas such as resource teaching and language support.

There are now 5,000 more primary teachers than in 2002. The estimated annual value of additional expenditure on these posts is approximately €300 million. As a result of the appointment of extra teachers, the pupil-teacher ratio has been reduced to 16.4:1. In addition to mainstream class teaching duties, additional posts have been used for other improvements. These include the introduction of the general allocation model for deploying learning support-resource teachers in September 2005 and the allocation of additional learning support-resource teachers. There has been a major expansion in the number of language support teachers meaning some schools have six language support teachers each; the appointment of administrative principals for schools with principal and four or five mainstream teachers which also has a specialist autism unit; and the appointment of administrative deputy principals for the first time.

The staffing schedule for the allocation of mainstream classroom teachers to schools has also been improved. In the 2005-06 school year, schools were staffed on the basis of a general rule of at least one classroom teacher for every 29 children. This year it was reduced to one for 27.

The threshold for getting a developing school post has also been reduced in recent years specifically to help schools that are seeing large increases in enrolments each year. More than 330 such posts have been sanctioned in the 2007-08 school year compared to 117 in 2003-04.

The programme for Government commitment involves further improvements in the staffing schedule for primary schools so that subject to financial consideration schools would be staffed on the basis of a general rule of at least one classroom teacher for every 24 pupils.

The improvements made in primary school staffing in recent years are unparalleled. The Government is committed to providing more primary teachers over the next five years. We will also continue our focus on measures to improve the quality of education in our primary schools to ensure increased resources lead to better outcomes.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The Minister's reply clarifies what many ordinary people, particularly parents, find confusing at times. There is the ratio of teachers to pupils, which includes staff pupils may never see, and the pupil-teacher ratio in the classroom. Will the Minister confirm that the pupil-teacher ratio in the classroom is 1:27?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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No, it is unfair to say there are teachers in schools whom pupils may never see. The people who are not counted in class-size number are the principal, deputy principal, home-school liaison officers, resource, learning support and special needs teachers. These are staff the pupils will see every day but they are not teaching, say, Irish, English, maths, history, geography in the classroom.

The Deputy is wrong in how he put his question. The average class-size is determined by the number of mainstream classroom teachers divided by the number of children. Schools are allocated a teacher for every 27 children. Smaller schools are much more generous; for example, one can get schools consisting of 12 children that can have two teachers. The pupil-teacher ratio is calculated by every teacher in a school, whether it is a classroom or learning support teacher, divided by the number of students. That is why it is as low as 1:16 in some schools.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Parents with little or no experience of the bureaucracy of the Department of Education and Science or the science associated with teaching will be concerned as to how many other children will be in first, second or third class along with their Máire or Johnny. All other non-classroom teachers are seen as backup and support. Parents' main concern is the actual ratio of primary school teachers to the number of children in a classroom in those critical schoolgoing years. Will the Minister agree on some clarity in conveying this information to the wider public and the House? To judge by the answer I received on 2 October the Minister can manipulate the figures to produce different kinds of results. While I am not accusing the Minister of doing that I seek clarity so that parents understand how many pupils there are in their children's classrooms.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Class size may be an issue for the parent whose child does not need anything extra. The special needs and resource teachers are necessary for the child who has a learning difficulty. The 1,800 teachers who teach nothing but English to newcomers are important for the children who do not speak English. The home-school community liaison teacher is important for the parent who needs support to link in.

Class size is an issue for some people but schools are staffed for their mainstream classroom teacher in the ratio of 1:27. There is no international evidence to show that class size makes a whit of difference to the outcomes except in the lowest classes. Notwithstanding that it makes no difference up the line, we have made a commitment to ensure that we continue to reduce class size but it is equally important that the other supports are available too. If in the past three years all the teachers who went into special needs and language teaching had been employed to reduce class sizes the ratio would be approximately 1:15 but we had to prioritise the most vulnerable people such as the disadvantaged who have small class sizes, those with special educational needs and newcomers who do not speak English.