Dáil debates

Tuesday, 27 February 2007

Ceisteanna — Questions

Departmental Files.

2:30 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach the files which were released recently by his Department under the National Archives Act 1986; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [43888/06]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach the number of files withheld by his Department from the National Archives in respect of 1976; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [43892/06]

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach the number of files withheld by his Department regarding the files transferred to the National Archives in respect of 1976; the numbers withheld under section 8(4)([i]a[/i]) of the National Archives Act 1986; the number withheld under section 8(4)([i]b[/i]); the number withheld under section 8(4)([i]c[/i]); and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1001/07]

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach the procedures in place for review of decisions by his Department to withhold files from the National Archives under the National Archives Act 1986, including files withheld in relation to 1976; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3728/07]

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach the number of files withheld by his Department from the National Archives in respect of 1976. [4432/07]

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Question 6: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the files that were released to the National Archives in respect of 1976; the number of files withheld; the reason for withholding these files; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6325/07]

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 6, inclusive, together.

The evaluation of files for release to the National Archives is carried out by designated officials in my Department. I have no role in that process. As files are processed for release each year, it is normal that some are certified by the appropriate official for retention on the grounds set forth in the Act. Under section 8(6) of the National Archives Act 1986, provision is made for the review of closed records at five-yearly intervals from the date the certificate to withhold the records is made. My Department complies with its statutory obligation in this regard.

A total to 724 files or file parts were transferred to the National Archives to be released for public inspection on 1 January 2007. Six files were withheld, of which two were withheld under section 8(4)(a) of the Act, one under section 8(4)(b) and (c) and one under section 8(4)(c) of the Act. On the advice of the Attorney General, two files were withheld under the 75-year European Court of Human Rights rule.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What kind of files were withheld? Does the Taoiseach have the number of files that have not been released and to what they relate? I note that, according to a recent newspaper article, the son of Rudolf Hess wrote to the former President, Mr. de Valera, in 1968, asking him to petition for the release of his father from Spandau prison in Berlin. The Taoiseach will be well aware of the story. The Secretary General of the Department of External Affairs, as it was then known, responded by saying that no further action was considered necessary and that the letter should just be acknowledged. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Does the Taoiseach have a list of what else has been released? Is it available in the Oireachtas Library or on the Internet? How does the average person access such information if he or she should so wish?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The files are sent to the National Archives every year so all of the records will be there. Of the six files in question, two were withheld under section 8(4)(a) of the Act, which relates to public interest, one was held under section 8(4)(b), which relates to information obtained in confidence, and one was held under section 8(4)(c), which relates to distress or danger of defamation. In practice most of the files withheld concern personal security matters. The European Court of Human Rights restricts the release of documents for 75 years and we observe such restrictions when we have documents on file from that body. This year two files were withheld on this basis, both of which related to the case taken against the British Government for the ill treatment of internees in Northern Ireland.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is it true that they were withheld partially because there are persons living who may be affected by the consequences of their release? Are those persons in the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland and is this why the files have not been released or does the Taoiseach have this information?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Even the names of most of these files are not given because that would be too much information. Not many files are withheld every year — between five and nine files each year in recent times — and most relate to people in Northern Ireland who wrote to the Taoiseach of the day with information. While the files come under the category of public interest information obtained in confidence, distress or danger, they all relate to the security situation.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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During the Taoiseach's term of stewardship, how many of the files withheld have been transferred to the archives?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Very few, to the best of my knowledge. I have the figures from 1999 and later and no file or part-file was withheld in 1999 or in the few preceding years. The 30 year rule affects files from the 1969 to 1970 period so in 2000 and 2001 there were 12 and 13 such files. The figures for the years after this were five, five and six. Almost all of these files related to security information supplied in writing by people. Inevitably, given the times, a number of documents contained sensitive or confidential information about individuals. In some cases the information may not have been accurate but it was supplied by individuals and no assessment is made as to the accuracy of the information supplied in the files.

I understand officials from my Department made every effort to ensure documents were released in their entirety where possible and sought the release of papers relating to political contacts between the Irish and British Governments and policy considerations of the Government of the time. Files withheld tended to relate to security information and information supplied by individuals in this regard.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Do the files held tend to be reviewed?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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They are reviewed every five years. I am not sure that the files I have seen and those that have been held back will ever be released unless, as in the human rights situation, we can get them out eventually. Many of the files relate to people writing to the Taoiseach of the day and giving their view or assessment of information they believed to be security information. How can anyone ever make an assessment about whether they were right or wrong? I do not think most of the files in question will ever see the light of day.

Photo of Martin FerrisMartin Ferris (Kerry North, Sinn Fein)
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Will the files from 1976 which were withheld and not released in January 2007 be considered for review in January 2008? Regarding the 1976 files relating to the Sallins mail train robbery and the subsequent framing of people for that raid, were any files withheld relating to the operation of the Garda heavy gang at the time?

Regarding the inquiry into the Dublin-Monaghan bombings, did Mr. McEntee SC have full access to all files relating to the matter, including those not released, under the National Archives Act?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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No files relating to the Sallins robbery were held in my Department. They would have been Garda files or files held by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. As I stated, the only files in my Department related to the security situation and only a very small number of files were held back. The files related to security information and we had no files relating to the issues the Deputy mentioned.

On the McEntee inquiry, on which we will have questions later, any appropriate files, either Garda files or otherwise, were available. I will deal with the matter when we come to the question.

Photo of Dan BoyleDan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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In light of the Taoiseach's response to Deputy Rabbitte concerning the five-yearly review, how many files have been subject to multiple reviews? The Taoiseach referred to the period from 1999 onwards. Do the files withheld relating to 1976 concern a single incident or a number of incidents? Are the same people cited in each of them or do they relate to different groups of people?

The Taoiseach appeared to indicate to Deputy Rabbitte that some files may have been withheld to avoid embarrassment to people who corresponded with members of the Government. Will he explain the security implications of withholding such correspondence?

Has the Department of the Taoiseach succeeded in creating a computer database of archives? To what extent has a division taken place in the National Archives between, on the one hand, professional historians and researchers and, on the other, members of the public who use the National Archives, for instance, to look up family histories? Could the difficulties in the National Archives caused by lack of space be overcome by introducing greater computerisation of records?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The National Archives has legislation, procedures and a budget for dealing with these issues so I do not want to answer on its behalf. State papers are released under the National Archives Act and provide historians with valuable insights into the Government's consideration of the events of 30 years previously. I am sure those analysing these historical records will find the State papers a valuable research resource.

I know from officials in my Department that they make every effort to ensure that documents are released in their entirety where possible. In particular, they have sought, wherever possible, to release papers relating to the political contacts between the Irish and British Governments and the policy considerations of the Government of the time. These are key historical records and the area in which historians are interested. My officials also sought to minimise any redactions within the documents that were released so that they would be fully accessible to readers.

I am not involved in this process, which is entirely conducted by authorised officials within the provisions of the Act. I do not have control over the staff of the National Archives who do a good job in assisting historians and members of the public in accessing records.

Information that is held back is not done so out of embarrassment. Thirty years ago, people in communities in Northern Ireland or in the Border region may have written letters containing facts or information they believed to be of a security nature. Some of these people or members of their families are still alive. Such instances, where people offered their view of sensitive information, are considered under the Act to be files that could create distress to individuals or their families or to present a danger or defamation.

Such people acted in good faith at a time of conflict and great difficulties in their areas. This provision is included in the legislation to protect that type of information so that people who thought they were being helpful at the time are not involved in conflict 30 years later. Only a small number of files are involved. They relate not to policy issues but to judgments of individuals, right or wrong, on the security situation at the time. It would be unfair ever to release those papers. I do not know what purpose would be served in doing so. Perhaps it might make no difference to release them in 75 years under the European Court of Human Rights rule but I do not see what purpose that would serve.

A total of 55 files on Northern Ireland were released to the National Archives this year. Only two of these were withheld under the European Court of Human Rights rule, 44 were released entirely without redactions, and 11 were released with redactions. Such redactions generally relate to the names of individuals. Of the 11 redacted files, 36 documents out of those files were affected.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Longford-Roscommon, Fine Gael)
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My question relates to storage and access to the National Archives and to Deputy Boyle's point regarding computerisation. The facilities there are entirely inadequate. Given that the General Registry Office has moved to Roscommon town and its records have been successfully computerised and that the Land Registry is on its way to Roscommon town and is in the process of computerising its records, would it not make sense to decentralise all our national records to Roscommon town? The facilities should be provided where the technology and skills are already available.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Since the Government successfully implemented the other changes, it should consider this proposal along with everything else.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Longford-Roscommon, Fine Gael)
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Does that mean the Taoiseach agrees with my proposal?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Naughten obviously agrees with the actions we have already taken in this area.