Dáil debates
Wednesday, 21 February 2007
Leaders' Questions
10:30 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yesterday evening I invited the Taoiseach to visit Beaumont Hospital, which is in a state of crisis. The Taoiseach declined to take up that offer but I went out myself. In the accident and emergency unit last night, it was perfectly obvious that porters, nurses, doctors and consultants are doing everything they can to make life somewhat comfortable for patients. There were approximately 50 patients in the accident and emergency unit. All cubicles were filled, on both sides of that unit. All of those patients were assessed for admission and all were too sick to go home, but no beds were available in the hospital.
The first problem the Taoiseach does not seem to appreciate is that there is a problem in north Dublin as far as long-stay beds are concerned. There are between 80 and 100 people in that hospital who should be in long-stay beds elsewhere. The only commitment that has been broken here has been by his Government.
I know what is wrong out there, I know the solution to the problem and I know what the Taoiseach could do about it, but he does not seem to want to do it. The solution, which the Taoiseach appreciates, is that he must deal with the issue of long-stay beds. Since Leas Cross and Sutton were taken out of commission, they are down by 140 beds. The Government made two specific commitments. The first was to provide a medical admissions unit at Beaumont Hospital. It has not happened. Second, his Government, in a state of national emergency, said it would provide 100 beds at St. Joseph's in Raheny and 200 beds in St. Mary's in the Phoenix Park. The Government has not provided them. This problem will continue in Beaumont Hospital until that aspect is addressed.
Will the Taoiseach take responsibility for this because those who are supposed to have responsibility for it are doing very little about it? Those beds have not appeared, and will not appear, and this problem will continue until he sorts it out.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It is a disgrace.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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One 78 year old woman had been sitting on a hard chair for 24 hours. She was assessed as being too sick to go home, but there was no place available in the hospital. It is the responsibility of the Taoiseach's Government to provide those units and beds. I see hotels being built on 24-hour shifts around the country, but regarding the most important buildings of all, hospitals, where people have no place at the inn, the Government has broken its commitments. What will the Taoiseach do about it?
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Ten years of doing nothing.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Accept the reality. We need more beds.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach without interruption.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Ten wasted years.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It is disgraceful. Beaumont Hospital is a disgrace, but we have been saying this to him for the past five or six years.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy McGrath, you will have to leave the House. There will be no delays this morning.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday, I stated that four of the 52 acute hospitals were having difficulties this week and I acknowledged the work the staff have been doing with the substantial additional resources, beds and facilities they have been given to make an enormous improvement on the waiting list this winter. They have brought down the length of stay in accident and emergency departments by over 50%. I also acknowledged that Beaumont Hospital and three of the other 52 acute hospitals are having difficulties at present and I stated that the senior people in the HSE, who have been working on the winter initiative and the accident and emergency departments generally, have been working with them. I appreciate that fact.
After Leas Cross and some of the other difficulties in north Dublin, a number of points were raised by the HSE where they required additional facilities. St. Joseph's, Raheny, is in use. As Deputy Kenny would have found out, approximately a year ago I visited the wards they opened at that time and it is in operation. They have introduced a number of other facilities.
There is a difficulty in four or five areas, mainly but not only in north Dublin. The bed numbers are down. Several times in the year they have patients who, in the normal course, could go home but it is just not possible for them to do so given their circumstances. Generally, such patients are elderly people who would be on their own. That is a risk that cannot be taken and, therefore, they need step-down facilities.
The HSE, in Dublin and around the country, does all it can to provide step-down beds, in both nursing homes——
Brendan HowlinBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The HSE does its utmost all over the country to provide step-down facilities and is continuing to do so.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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In reply to Deputy Kenny, not the Labour Party,——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach without interruption.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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There is loads of money and 50 beds would solve the problem.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy McGrath, you will have to leave if you do not behave.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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In reply to Deputy Kenny, in 2007 the HSE is providing 360 extra beds by way of contracts with the private sector — it is not a question of 50 beds. Of these, 220 are in the greater Dublin area, 100 in the south and 40 in the western region. It is not a question of 50 beds.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Beaumont Hospital.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a question of 50 beds in Beaumont Hospital.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Taoiseach should talk to the staff. I talked to them over the weekend.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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One should talk to the people who know the position. Public capacity has been increased by some 446 beds. It is not, therefore, a question of 50 beds.
The HSE is very aware of the problems at Beaumont Hospital and has been working with it to try to increase capacity. As I stated yesterday, to try to avoid the problems experienced by the accident and emergency staff, the out-of-hours doctors systems and rapid access clinic in Smithfield have been opened. The latter is directly helping north Dublin. The facilities in James Connolly Memorial Hospital associated with the hospital-in-the-home concept have been put into operation and the community intervention teams are in place. All of these measures are directly designed to help the people to whom Deputy Kenny is referring. The schemes are working well and were not in operation 12 months ago. This does not mean that from time to time there will be no difficulties in some hospitals. These difficulties must be managed and will not all be solved overnight.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There will be difficulties in some of the hospitals on some days and there is no point running around to whichever hospital has a difficulty trying to highlight it. The HSE and the staff are doing their utmost to address the problem.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please allow Deputy Kenny to speak without interruption.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Our job is to listen to people on the ground.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach's last reply smacks of the Tánaiste's observation that the crisis in St. James's Hospital was manufactured by people in white coats looking concerned. The point is I know there is a problem because I was at Beaumont Hospital last night. The Taoiseach was not and is removing himself from the problem but it will not go away. Doctors in the accident and emergency unit told me that they must assess patients, irrespective of their circumstances, in a state of indignity and without privacy. The problem will not go away, unless the Taoiseach deals with it. He can mention all the figures and statistics he likes and tell me the HSE knows about the matter, but he must realise that he is the Leader of the Government, whose job it is to ensure it is resolved. The problem epitomises the failure of Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats after ten years.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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It is time for the Government to go away.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Whether the Taoiseach likes it, a commitment was made to put in place a medical admissions unit, 100 beds at St. Joseph's Hospital in Fairview and 200 at St. Mary's Hospital in the Phoenix Park. The medical admissions unit has not been provided. When we get into government in a few months, I would like to call in those who are supposed to be responsible for the delivery of these beds. Why does the Government not fast-track those two hospital building projects, if not them all, in the critical infrastructure Bill? Why does the Taoiseach not call in the architects and HSE representatives and ask why nothing is happening, in spite of his having made a commitment to the people to provide the beds mentioned at St. Joseph's Hospital and St. Mary's Hospital?
What is happening in Beaumont Hospital is not a one night stand. It is happening every night and on the Taoiseach's watch. Neither he nor the Government seems to appreciate the scale of frustration, indignity and collapse over which he presides. This is the problem and it will not go away. Will he take personal responsibility to ensure the commitments made by his Government are honoured? If there were a serious accident in the Dublin Port tunnel — God forbid — or on his beloved M50, for which he paid €600 million yesterday, Beaumont hosptial would certainly not be able to cope.
On the problem of long-stay beds in north County Dublin, will the Taoiseach take responsibility for delivering or fast-tracking the 100 beds mentioned at St. Joseph's Hospital in Fairview, 200 beds at St. Mary's Hospital and the medical admissions unit at Beaumont Hospital? Will he answer these questions rather than listing statistics that go on forever?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will answer them.
Paul KehoeBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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First, St. Joseph's Hospital is in Raheny, not Fairview.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is a wonder the Taoiseach knows the difference.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Is he sure it was not Beaumont Hospital? He knows he has not delivered——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Members on both sides of the House to allow the Taoiseach to contribute without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will answer the question because that is the easy part; however, it does not solve the problem. The 100 beds in St. Joseph's Hospital are being commissioned and will be ready this year. There is no problem about this. The St. Mary's Hospital development is under way. The people dealing with these tasks will complete them.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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On St. Joseph's Hospital, the work is happening but it will not solve the whole problem.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No, but it would solve the exit problem.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not need to do anything in respect of the two commissions; both are under way and being fast-tracked, with many other schemes. I would love to be able to tell Deputy Kenny that the completion of the two jobs will solve all the problems. That is the point. Given the age profile and population structure in the catchment area of the Dublin teaching hospitals——
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What about the medical admissions unit?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Practically every night an average of 100 patients could be discharged but, because of their family circumstances, they are not. They really require a step-down facility.
Consider the third step the HSE is taking. As the Deputy knows, there are ongoing talks about Leas Cross and efforts are being made to recommission the beds. That will probably happen this year also. The institution will be under different management and have different structures.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We should be under a different Government.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The HSE is also in discussions with other current and prospective private nursing home providers with a view to securing beds to allow additional discharges from hospitals. Most are private but one cannot be certain about them because they are not in the hands of the State. It should be noted that, in respect of addressing the problem of delayed discharges in acute hospitals, approximately 1,088 older patients have been subject to placement to date. I am afraid we are talking about many people and dealing with 50, 60 or 70 will not solve the problem. Looking at the figures, I do not know whether 200 beds at St. Mary's Hospital, mainly for the geriatric unit, and 100 beds in Raheny will solve it either.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What about the medical admissions unit?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The medical admissions unit was among the ten points listed. As I understand it, most of those issues are on track.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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There is not a sign of them. That is a Bertie answer.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is no great difficulty with any of them. Bearing in mind the difficulties, it still seems that in terms of bed capacity which is being examined by the HSE, it will be necessary to build a step-down facility either in north or west Dublin, the two areas experiencing acute difficulties. The age profile of the population in question which lives in some of the most densely populated areas in the entire country is such that additional facilities are required. Although all the proposed developments will be completed this year, in addition to the developments of 2006 and 2005, four of the 52 hospitals will still face constant difficulties. Two of them are located in north Dublin.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Since 2001 I have been raising with the Taoiseach the daily torment inflicted on motorists who must use the West Link toll bridge. During this time the Government has prevaricated and taken different positions. Now, within sight of the general election, we read it has decided to buy the bridge. Will the Taoiseach state the exact position? Yesterday's announcement which coincided with the additional chaos arising from the diversion of 2,200 trucks from the port tunnel onto the bridge does not seem to advance us beyond what the Taoiseach told the House last November. The deal has not been concluded and the Minister states in the small print of the statement that he hopes it will be concluded soon. The situation on the bridge has been dramatically worsened by 2,200 trucks, which are the equivalent of 6,000 cars, and by the commencement of the renovation of the M50. These factors have made the already intolerable circumstances confronting motorists immensely worse. Is it the case that buying back this bridge, the original deal for which was €38 million, will cost us €600 million? The original deal signed by Pádraig Flynn and George Redmond——
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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——was supposed to give value for money.
Joan BurtonPat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Whoever got the money, it did not give value to motorists. Now, apparently, we are spending €600 million to buy it back and an additional €113 million for the installation of an electronic tolling system.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It was the sale of the century.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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When the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, tells me that €113 million will be spent on an electronic tolling system——
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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——I am reminded of his familiarity with electronics. My heart goes down to my shoes, just as they do when I hear that the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, has a briefing document.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte might check his own records regarding the original purchase. Mr. Liam Kavanagh had a role in it while he was a Minister in a coalition Government.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Rabbitte without interruption.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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As an interesting aside, this is the same Department of Transport which, when Deputy Brennan was Minister, pledged that Cork Airport would be debt free. I became concerned about the impact on passengers in Cork when I read a report in the Irish Examiner quoting the Minister, Deputy Martin, as being confident that charges will not increase in Cork.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Crash landing Martin.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Rabbitte is allowed only one question.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I had some hope for the travellers in Cork until the Minister said he was confident.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This Government did a lot more for Cork than Deputy Rabbitte ever did.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte is only a three card trick man.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I ask the Taoiseach whether the deal has been done and how much it will cost. When will barrier-free tolling be installed? What will be the position for motorists in the 18 months before the installation of barrier-free tolling? Is it true that tolling will be in place at only one point——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Rabbitte's time has concluded.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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——or will there be tolling at a number of points?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to give way to the Taoiseach.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The small print of what the Minister said is there will be tolling at one point until the infrastructure is in place. Does that mean there will be tolling at a number of points?
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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There will not. Deputy Rabbitte should not be disingenuous.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I am entitled to ask the question.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Rabbitte to give way to the Taoiseach. He has already used five minutes of the time allotted for his question.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I recall what the Minister, Deputy Cullen, told us regarding electronic voting machines.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte supported electronic voting machines.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I took it on good faith and look at what happened.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Rabbitte should give way to the Taoiseach.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We had an election——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Minister to allow Deputy Rabbitte to conclude.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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He is a failure.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Minister, Deputy Martin, has to observe the same rules as Deputy Finian McGrath or anybody else.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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He should hang his head in shame.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Are no photographs being taken this morning?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Rabbitte has exceeded five minutes with his question and I ask him to allow the Taoiseach to speak.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I cannot hear the Ceann Comhairle.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Rabbitte was entitled to two minutes in which to ask his question.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Not at all, I spoke briefly but I was interrupted.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to resume his seat and allow the Taoiseach to answer.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Somebody on the benches opposite must have sent the Minister, Deputy Martin, away to have his photograph taken.
I ask the Taoiseach ——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Rabbitte to give way to the Taoiseach. He has used almost six minutes on his questions. He is entitled to two minutes.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Ceann Comhairle did not threaten the Minister, Deputy Martin.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The contract is within two weeks of being signed. There will be one tolling point on the road in the short term and in the long term.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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In the short term.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputy Allen.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Deputy to stop interrupting.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The taxpayer wants to know.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I want to answer the Deputy.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach's Ministers were interrupting.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The contract will be finished in two weeks and there will be one tolling point on the road. The contract for the new operator of the barrier-free toll is under negotiation and will be awarded shortly. That should be in place in 2008. Phases one and three of the construction of the M50, which is a €1 billion project, will be finished to coincide with the implementation of barrier-free tolling. That should have a significant impact on the efficiency and movement of the 100,000 vehicles which travel the M50. We have been endeavouring, along with the completion and major success of the tunnel and the work on the Naas road, to finish the intervening sections. It will take three to three and a half years, or until the end of 2010, to complete all stages of the upgrade of the M50. Barrier-free tolling and the completion of phases one and three and, by 2010, the later phases should have a significant impact.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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It is not going to work.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The key point is not additional money. When we buy National Toll Roads' rights on the road for €50 million, the income will come back to the State for upgrading the M50. It will not be a case of double money because NTR will cease to receive it. That is how the contract will operate. We made the decision and there has been no change. One year ago, I said in this House that the NRA, with the agreement of the Minister for Transport and the Government, decided the arrangement with NTR under the 1987 agreement for the collection of tolls on the West Link until 2020 would end and those discussions have continued for eight months. NTR has to be compensated in line with an agreement entered into by the Government and the local authorities and we are duty bound to deliver. The Minister will conclude those agreements in the next few weeks.
In respect of the tunnel, Deputy Rabbitte may take issue with the figures but I want to congratulate all the engineers involved. It was the biggest infrastructure project ever completed by the State. The HGV management strategy introduced by Dublin City Council was a tremendous success.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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It was a disaster.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I also thank the truckers for the 50% increase. The reason we built the tunnel was to take vehicles away from residential areas and put them onto the M50. That was the plan 20 years ago. There has been a reduction of 80% in the number of trucks going through and polluting residential areas all over the city and they are now on a road on which €1 billion is being spent for construction. Admittedly, it would have been nice if people had been able to foresee that a successful Government would have had economic growth of 7% for ten years or that the road would have had a significant impact.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach will get another election out of that.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It is about planning.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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People were estimating 20,000 cars per year in 2010 rather than the 100,000 we have. The infrastructure for the Naas road and the tunnel has been enormously successful.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Red Cow roundabout.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The intervening work is now under way. Two phases will be completed next year and work on the other phase will be complete by 2010. It is sensible to remove NTR from the equation, introduce barrier-free tolling and complete the €1 billion project. Completion of the work will mean a lot to Deputy Rabbitte's constituents and to people generally.
11:00 am
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Do I take it from the Taoiseach's reply that within two weeks the bridge will be bought back for €600 million and that the current private toll will be replaced by a public toll? What is the position in respect of the 18 months before barrier-free tolling will be implemented? Ireland penalises motorists more than any country in the European Union in terms of taxation, such as VRT, and the cost of using this bridge, which comes to approximately €1,300 for a family that uses it to commute to and from work each day. This constitutes an imposition on motorists. When the Taoiseach states that he is caught by the contract entered into on behalf of the State by the former Minister, Pádraig Flynn, and George Redmond——
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should not forget that Liam Kavanagh put the deal together.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, should allow Deputy Rabbitte to speak without interruption.
Willie PenroseRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Rabbitte, without interruption.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I ask the Taoiseach——
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Liam Kavanagh put it together.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, and Deputy Penrose should allow Deputy Rabbitte to speak without interruption.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Members should know the facts.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Minister did not know many facts on "Morning Ireland". He was misrepresenting the truth.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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As for the Taoiseach being stuck with the contract, is it not the case that there is a term in the contract that requires the operator to provide adequate tolling in respect of the traffic flows? This has never been done and the State has never taken any action. This is the same Department and these are the same Ministers who gave us the Luas and the port tunnel at three times their projected costs——
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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——and has now created the mess in Cork and Shannon Airports about which Opposition Members warned in this House.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time has concluded.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Moreover, the same Department and one of the transient Ministers gave a black and white commitment to the people of Cork that they would not be laboured with the debt following the construction of the airport terminal. However, this has all changed. Consequently, in such circumstances, why should motorists accept what the Government is now saying?
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach appears to be holding open the option of a multitolling point as soon as the infrastructure is installed. I presume he refers to the grade separations that must be installed at a number of points along the M50. Why not call the operator's bluff——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time has concluded.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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——and lift the tolls for the duration of the renovation until the implementation of barrier-free tolling? Why not test the bluff and the engineers' advice? It would be interesting to give motorists some relief for one month by raising the obstacles on that bridge on a trial basis. Such an initiative should be monitored to ascertain the outcome because there will be no relief for the next 18 months for motorists.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Rabbitte's time has concluded.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The renovation of the M50 itself is under way contemporaneously with these developments. Moreover, the feed of trucks from the port tunnel adds to the congestion.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Rabbitte to give way to the Taoiseach.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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As soon as the port tunnel has been built——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy has used eight minutes on questions and only seven minutes in total are allocated for the question.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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——his partner in Government wants to move the port.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to give way to the Taoiseach.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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What relief does the Taoiseach offer to motorists for the next 18 months?
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach's partners are deserting the sinking ship in Cork at present.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The position is that the Government decided to buy out NTR from a contract dating from 1987. As for the arguments on who negotiated the contract, the records make it clear who did so. However, that is neither here nor there.
From August 2008, a new company will take over the barrier-free tolling. Negotiations in this regard are ongoing and it will be appointed shortly. This will coincide with the completion of the work of phases 1 and 3 of the M50 upgrade, on which a total of €1 billion is being spent. Another phase will be completed by 2010. From 2008, the revenues that will be generated on the M50 will revert to the State. Such revenues are approximately €45 million at present and, depending on their levels, they will go towards the upgrade of the road.
However, the Government must complete the contract. As I noted, it is not double money. I believe that developments on both the Naas Road and on either side of the M50 are crucial in this respect because more or less the same traffic goes on to it. I am aware of the view that the easy solution would be to remove the toll, after which everything would be resolved.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It has been done a number of times. I was even present on one occasion at which a trial was conducted. The engineers involved are the same people who have undertaken the biggest infrastructural job in Europe recently and their view is that doing so would accomplish very little. While a car going straight through might benefit, on the interchanges and on a number of the other points, they believe it would create far more difficulty. All the advice was to finish the Naas Road and the tunnel, perform the upgrade and get rid of the toll barriers. We have followed a consistent policy that is now approximately three years from completion.
I readily admit that the difficulty arose because 20 years ago, when negotiating the contract, people believed there would be 25,000 cars by 2010 whereas there are now 100,000 cars. They did not envisage 7,000 trucks and thought there would be approximately 2,000 trucks. They did not envisage the extent of the increase. However, this happens throughout the world. It happens in respect of airports and rail lines and people continually upgrade them.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It does not happen as often as it happens here.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is the reason that infrastructural development is an ongoing process throughout the world.
The Naas Road and the tunnel are finished and €1 billion is being spent on the M50. The Government will buy out NTR and will remove the barrier toll. It will be a single price in that people will go through it and receive one account for one crossing. It will not be multipoint and this will be in place by August 2008. The total completion of the M50 upgrade will occur in 2010.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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First, I wish to raise the accusation levelled at me last week by the Taoiseach when he stated I was telling him a twisted pack of lies. In order to prove how mistaken he is, I will give him the letter from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government that urges Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council not to adopt the standards it subsequently adopted. Second, I refer to the two articles, one from The Sunday Tribune and the other from a construction magazine, Construct Ireland, stating that less than 2% of all houses comply with Part L of the Building Regulations 1997. This follows a survey conducted by Sustainable Energy Ireland, which has not been published even though it was carried out in 2005. I look forward to its publication.
The Taoiseach might reflect on this point as it does not simply pertain to people being cold in their homes, paying exorbitant heating bills and in some cases being obliged to take out loans to pay the bills. This pertains to heating, which in terms of the contribution to greenhouse gas emissions, constitutes approximately one third of energy use in Ireland. The proportion caused by heating requires serious attention, particularly as the Taoiseach had no difficulty last weekend in telling his followers in Galway that Ireland would have no problem in meeting its Kyoto Protocol targets.
I take it that the Taoiseach did not actually mean reducing carbon dioxide emissions, but paying the estimated €700 million per annum in carbon credits. This money, which should be invested in hospitals or other essential services, will leave Ireland.
I seek clarity in this regard because today's newspapers report that, yesterday, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, pledged with other EU Ministers to cut climate change gases by 20% below 1990 levels. A 20% reduction from 1990 levels presents a sizeable challenge for Ireland.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time has concluded.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Essentially, this constitutes a 35% cut in Ireland, even without any growth. However, the Government's policies are causing a 2% rise in climate change gases per annum although it must put in place reductions of 3.5% per annum.
There is a mismatch between the Taoiseach's policies and his rhetoric. Is the Government committing Ireland to a 20% cut in greenhouse gas emissions from 1990 levels by 2020? Apparently this commitment has been made at a European Council of Ministers meeting. Is the Taoiseach making such a commitment in the House, where national accountability dictates such commitments ought to be made? What actions will he take to ensure that measures to effect a 3.5% cut per annum will be put in place?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the first point, and I will reply to Deputy Sargent if he gives me the papers. We need not debate it here. Some 97% or 98% of the houses had a problem and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government told the local authority not to involve itself. I since looked at the papers and Deputy Sargent is incorrect. However, I will answer him for the record.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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It is written in black and white.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Ireland strongly supports the leadership provided by the European Union on this issue.
Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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The Taoiseach will not follow it.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Sargent is right that it is an important issue. Regarding a new international agreement to continue progress made under the Kyoto Protocol to reduce global greenhouse gas emissions in the medium to long term to 2020 and beyond, environment ministers met yesterday to agree a position whereby the European Union would propose that developed nations agree to reduce greenhouse gas production by 30% in the post-Kyoto period after 2012. Failing to reach agreement with other developed nations which will be difficult the European Union suggests it would agree unilaterally to a 20% reduction target. The position was strongly supported on behalf of the Government by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, at yesterday's meeting.
The point I made at the weekend is that we successfully decoupled our greenhouse gas emissions from economic growth in this country.
Ciarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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We had a 2% increase in emissions last year.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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How will we go from 25% above to——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Taoiseach without interruption please.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ryan's leader submitted a question and is entitled to hear the answer. If Deputy Ryan does not want him to hear it he can continue to interrupt and I will ask him to leave the House.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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I am entitled to know how he will tackle the issue.
Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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He does not have an answer.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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In reply to Deputy Sargent, Ireland has successfully decoupled its greenhouse gas emissions. From 1990 to 2005, emissions grew by 25% whereas our economy grew by 150%. This is reflected in the emissions intensity of the Irish economy. In 2004, emissions per unit of GDP were 48% of their 1990 level. The equivalent figure for the European Union is 78%.
The actions we must take include setting a steeply ambitious target to deliver one third of electricity from renewable sources by 2020, making maximum uses of new technologies for co-generation in Irish power stations with biomass, planning for the use of carbon capture, clean coal generation technology with which Deputy Sargent will agree——
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——creating new opportunities for farmers in bio-fuel production and creating new bio-fuel industry in the country——
Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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Support the bio-fuels.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——the details of which I spelled out at the weekend, and introducing minimum requirements for the use of bio-fuels in State-owned and public transport vehicles, starting with Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann which the Minister announced recently. Both companies are being instructed to move all their existing fleets to a 5% bio-diesel blend and plan to achieve a 30% bio-diesel blend in all new buses.
Ciarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Will the Taoiseach buy his way out of this?
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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Our transport emissions are——
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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——going up by 7% per annum.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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If Deputy Ryan wishes to leave the House——
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputies are not serious.
Ciarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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If we are not serious the Government is comical.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not understand why Deputies Boyle and Ryan call on people to take these issues seriously. When people do so and announce it rather than talk about it they ignore it.
Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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Because the Government is doing nothing.
Ciarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The Taoiseach is moving backwards.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I appeal to members of the Green Party to remain in silence and hear the answer to the question. If they do not wish to do so they should leave the House. If they do not leave the House the Chair will facilitate them by using Standing Orders.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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We require the public sector to lead the way on energy efficiency. We are improving the energy efficiency of new Irish homes by up to 40% and more and the use of solar energy and other microrenewable technologies in homes and businesses. None of those issues should upset the Green Party. They should receive its support.
Ciarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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What about the 2% increase?
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I am not convinced by the Taoiseach's reply. He mentioned decoupling of economic growth. As was stated before, a decreasing rate of increase is not a decrease. Let us be clear. As was already stated, a 7% increase per annum in transport emissions is unsustainable and goes in the wrong direction. Does the Taoiseach accept this?
Does he accept a need for annual targets which he can live by which means 3.5%? If we are to reach a 40% cut which is what we are discussing overall when the European figure is in place we will need a 3.5% cut per annum. Currently, we are going the wrong way. We are going over2%. The Taoiseach mentioned leadership from the European Union. The United Nations states the EU is becoming complacent in comparison with the US and Asia.
New Zealand is a country not unlike our own. It is non-nuclear, of similar size and with a large Irish population. The Prime Minister, Helen Clark, stated New Zealand will become the world's first carbon neutral country. The New Zealand Business Council for Sustainable Development welcomed it as a sea change in the way the country will handle climate change and protect its trading position for long-term success.
A great deal rests on what the Taoiseach decides. I ask him again to be absolutely clear that the message he gives to everybody in society is that he will be intent on cutting our emissions by 3.5% per annum. That will at least comply with the minimal rate which the EU set. It is not world leading but at least it is a start. Will the Taoiseach undertake to bring this about?
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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And less hot air.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is what I said in every way——
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Not by the Taoiseach's actions.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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The Taoiseach never stated that.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I outlined for Deputy Sargent some of the areas. In our plans we included €16 billion for public transport. We have electrification, bio-fuels——
Ciarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Will the Taoiseach buy his way out of it again?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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If one more member of the Green Party interrupts——
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Cuffe should go off and buy some shares.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Chair is speaking.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Cuffe should buy more shares in oil.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Did Deputy Cuffe sell those shares yet?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Green Party is entitled to submit a question through its leader——
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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What did the Ministers do?
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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What about every tree in north Dublin?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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One more interruption from any member of the Green Party and I will ask him to leave. They cannot come here week after week and have their leader ask a question while heard in silence and go over time——
Ciarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The Taoiseach comes in here and waffles.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Cuffe will leave the House——
Ciarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Climate change is a serious issue——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Cuffe will leave the House if he does not behave. We must have some sort of order on Leaders' Questions. The Taoiseach or member of Government responding to a question is entitled to be heard. Leaders are going over time and are heard in silence and then the Taoiseach——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It appears to the Chair that Deputy Cuffe wishes to leave the House. He will leave the House because of disorder and not because of the issue being raised.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have already given the straight answer——
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——but it is clear that Deputy Cuffe's total knowledge of green issues is that within the facility one can purchase carbon credits and every comment he makes is around that. He ignores all the other points. It is disappointing that as a person who is elected on a green ticket he does not understand either what the issue is or what we are trying to do——
Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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He read too many books.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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His leader, who does understand these things, asked me a question and I was trying to answer. Deputy Cuffe said I was not giving an answer. He usually starts interrupting before I say anything and he did it again this morning. Now he is silenced by the control of his party leader I will again repeat that we are putting resources into public transport——
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Divide and conquer.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——electrification and bio-fuels and it is our commitment to achieve these issues. Regarding renewable energy we have a number of things which I spelled out at the weekend in great detail which we have to do.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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The Government had ten years to do them.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have also achieved a high number of these issues. We do have problem areas. We have a high reliance on fossil fuels in power generation stations. I will not say that is not a difficulty for us. Renewable energy contributed only 5.2% of electricity needs which is too low. We committed ourselves to one third. I am not saying that is not a big challenge.
As a result of livestock numbers compared to our population, agriculture accounts for 29% of greenhouse gas emissions here compared to an average of 10% in EU countries. These are challenges but we have set our targets. In policies across all ministries we are doing everything we can to endeavour to do that and will continue to do so. I am committed.