Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Question 104: To ask the Minister for Finance the timetable to which the Government is working in respect of the decentralisation of State agencies; if it includes an examination of the business case for the proposed move; and the special arrangements being prepared to deal with the entirely different role and contractual arrangements which exist in the State agencies compared to the public services. [4363/07]

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy will be aware, 30 State agencies are due to relocate under the Government's decentralisation programme. Some 2,340 posts are involved, or just over one fifth of the programme.

The decentralisation implementation group, DIG, did not set a specific timeframe for State agencies as it believed that it was the responsibility of the board and senior management of each agency to implement the Government decision and to report to its parent Department in the first instance on the progress being made. The DIG noted in its latest report that while progress had been made by some State agencies, there was a marked lack of action among others. The group is meeting CEOs from a number of State agencies to get an overview of progress to date and to identify the challenges remaining in implementing Government policy.

The main issues facing the State agencies are those relating to the filling of posts in undersubscribed locations, the placing of staff choosing to remain in Dublin and promotion arrangements. These issues are further complicated by the absence of any tradition of or agreement on interchangeability between public service organisations, and between the public service and the Civil Service. The decentralisation implementation group is of the view that the resolution of the outstanding issues is central to the overall implementation process in the State agencies. The group has asked my Department to pursue directly with ICTU proposals on getting central discussions under way on the full range of industrial relations issues relating to the decentralisation of State agencies.

An approach based on consensus and agreement has enabled significant progress to be made as regards the Civil Service moves and it is the intention to continue with this policy in the State agency sector.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his reply. I am sure he was invited to a recent meeting that was organised by some of the representatives of the workers affected. It was notable that there was no Fianna Fáil representative and many people were disappointed. Nonetheless, some very important questions were put at that meeting that require answers if the Government is intent on fulfilling what it says in its policy.

There is a tiny number of people volunteering to move within the State agencies. In the case of five agencies, not a single person has volunteered and in the case of seven, fewer than ten have opted to do so. Overall, fewer than one in ten specialists is volunteering to move. How does the Minister propose that State agencies will continue in a decentralised location if 90% of the skilled expertise is melted down in that process? The Minister raised the question of interchangeability and this goes to the core of the issue. People working in particular State agencies do not have the option of moving to others. Their contract is with the State agencies by which they are employed.

What is the Government's proposal on interchangeability? Has the Minister some idea whereby, say, skilled mappers who have opted to stay in Dublin may continue to be used effectively or shall we just see the meltdown of that expertise and the enormous expense of trying to re-employ it in some new location? There needs to be some clarity, other than palming this off on the implementation group, when plainly nothing has happened in the three years by which, in the Government's admission, it was to have been completed.

Will the Minister outline his vision as to how this might possibly be dealt with? Has he received from any of the CEOs or boards involved clear indications that they do not believe there is a business case that will stack up the proposal and what does the Government propose to do?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As I said, we believe the outstanding industrial relations issues can only be dealt with in the context of a centralised discussion with ICTU, at that level rather than at individual State agency level, which has been the case up to now. The DIG, which has responsibility for moving this forward, has suggested to us, and we have agreed, to pursue proposals directly with ICTU for getting central discussions under way on the industrial relations issues, including the ones raised by the Deputy as regards the decentralisation of these agencies. That is where matters stand. Until the industrial relations problems are sorted out, clearly very little progress can be made. Progress has been made in some agencies but overall, as the Deputy has said, because there is no tradition of interchangeability or greater operability, we must explore with ICTU how this might be moved forward at central level.

That element of the programme will take longer to achieve, but progress is evident in a number of areas. A number of agencies are progressing their moves where location, mix of staff, business and size of organisation are favourable. The Health and Safety Authority has established an advance office in Kilkenny in preparation for its moves to Thomastown, and Pobal has set up an office in Clifden. This year it is expected the Road Safety Authority will be located in Loughrea and Ballina. FÁS will have a further small advance office in Birr. The Equality Authority will have an advance office in Roscrea and SEI will have a presence in Dundalk. In addition, Enterprise Ireland will have established a presence in Shannon, including the transfer of some existing Shannon Development posts to that organisation.

Officials in my Department are in contact with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions on the matter. The decentralisation implementation group has expressed a view that resolution of the outstanding issues is central to the overall implementation process in the State agencies. I agree with that view and I hope that matters can move forward. As with all industrial relations negotiations, it is impossible to give a precise timeframe for their conclusion.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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What is the offer to people with expertise in State agencies who opt to remain in Dublin? This is supposed to be a voluntary programme. The Government wants people to volunteer to do one or the other. The only offer that I have heard from people who wish to remain in Dublin is unemployment. If they do not move and the Government pushes ahead, then unemployment is their only option if they remain in Dublin. The onus is on the Government to make an offer, as decentralisation is Government strategy. This negotiation must be opened up by putting some thoughts on the table as to how it will work. These ideas have not yet come forward.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We are hopeful that discussions with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions at a central level will help resolve these matters, rather than dealing with individual State agencies and unions that represent individual groups of staff.

It is important to understand the process in place to manage the issue of staff remaining in Dublin. Staff will come on stream in Dublin on a phased basis as their organisations progress through their timeframe for relocation. This phasing allows for the absorption of Dublin staff into vacant posts to be managed over the full transitional phase of the programme.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Into what vacancies are people being deployed?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Of the 6,000 general Civil Service posts being moved out of Dublin, approximately 3,400 applicants are coming from Dublin. This is only a snapshot of the central applications facility and it is changing all the time. There is a significant turnover each year at the clerical grades and junior management grades in the general service, where the majority of staff are employed. Therefore, we do not anticipate significant difficulties in placing these staff in Dublin.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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That does not apply to Stage agencies.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am going through each detail. The turnover at senior levels is not as great, but the overall numbers at that level are smaller and can be managed over time. The phasing has been arranged so that the locations with the best take-up are moving early. The Department of Finance is currently analysing retirement patterns over its transition phase and has been liaising with Departments and offices to plan the phased relief of staff into vacant Dublin posts.

Professional and technical staff make up about 10% of the overall programme. Proposals have been tabled in talks with the unions on options for staff remaining in Dublin. While the issues are more complex for professional grades, discussion and dialogue on the full range of options is the only way forward, including inter-oganisational mobility in the Civil Service and mobility in the wider public service.

There have not yet been any substantive discussions with union representatives of the State agencies on the detailed implementation arrangements. Progress on issues such as mobility between State agencies and between agencies in the Civil Service would expand the range of options for all staff, including staff remaining in Dublin.