Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy O'Connor was speaking when the debate adjourned yesterday. He has seven minutes remaining.

Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome this opportunity to speak for a second time in this debate. I made a brief contribution yesterday. I acknowledge the presence in the Chamber of many eminent Deputies, not only from Fianna Fáil but also from other parties. It is encouraging that they want to hear me speak.

When I listened to the speech made yesterday by Deputy Perry, in which he mentioned every street in Sligo, I was reminded that it is alright to be parochial when speaking in the House. Therefore, I have decided to speak about Tallaght during the seven minutes available to me.

As I said yesterday, it is important that we support the work of the Garda Síochána, for example by ensuring it has proper resources and facilities, while ensuring the force is doing its job properly. I gave some examples yesterday of the effective deployment of friendly gardaí on our streets. The members of the force are doing their jobs by delivering the services demanded of them by communities. It is important that we support the Garda in that.

I live in Tallaght, which is the third largest centre of population in the country. I often make the point that there is just one Garda station within the boundaries of my constituency, which has a population of almost 70,000. Parts of Dublin South-West are served by the Garda stations in Rathfarnham, Clondalkin and Crumlin, as well as Tallaght Garda station, which is in the constituency. Some of the stations I have mentioned were also referred to yesterday. It is important that we understand the need for the Garda to continue to have excellent facilities and first-class resources so it can offer communities the friendly, effective and efficient service they want.

I mention the ongoing campaign for the redevelopment of Tallaght Garda station, which was built in 1987. The Garda station was in place before many of the other services in the Tallaght region. I often make the point that Tallaght did not fall out of the sky 30 years ago — it has been there forever. I often said, after the new Tallaght came on stream in the 1970s, that it had the population of a city and the status of a village. We needed many of the new facilities which are in place today, thank God. The Garda station in Tallaght, which was the first building of its type to be developed in Tallaght, is now outdated. If one examines the history of the community of Tallaght over the past 16 years, one will note that it has benefitted from many of the developments one would expect in a new city. I refer to The Square shopping centre, Tallaght Hospital and many sporting and cultural facilities.

We need to focus on providing first-class facilities for the Garda to allow it to provide its various services. In any debate, other Deputies will make the case for the provision of such services in their constituencies, as they have done on this occasion, and I am certainly making the case for my constituency. As the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, will be aware, I have argued on a number of occasions that a second Garda station is needed in Tallaght. I will continue to make the point that such a Garda station should be located in west Tallaght. Members of the House from all constituencies will agree that police visibility is important. Just as people like to see politicians visiting their communities occasionally, they like to see gardaí on the streets on a regular basis. I mentioned yesterday that I came from a different Dublin where when I was growing up, I used to see gardaí on foot and on their bicycles, and threatening to confiscate our footballs, and so on. It is important that we understand the value of such engagement with the public.

I am a strong supporter of the concept of police forums. It is important that we encourage the Minister, Deputy McDowell, to promote that concept. People in my constituency were disappointed that it was not selected for inclusion in the pilot programme, especially in light of the size of Dublin South-West and the Tallaght area, in particular. I remind the Minister of State, as I have often reminded the Tánaiste, that progress needs to be made with the programme. That will happen if community groups and activists engage with local leaders, gardaí and public representatives to discuss the various issues. I am sure my colleagues, Deputies Costello and English, agree with me on the basis of the experience in their constituencies. I imagine that the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, thinks that such a process would be of assistance in Galway. We need to continue to emphasise the importance of developments like police forums. We need to keep the public on board. Having lived in Dublin for most of my life, I have always taken the view that it is important for the Garda to engage with the public. If such engagement does not take place and the Garda fails to do an effective and efficient job, alternative means of justice start to become evident in local areas. We are all familiar with examples of such activity, which we should try to resist. In that context, it is important to support the work of the Garda in a strong way.

I had an opportunity a couple of years ago to join some of my parliamentary colleagues on a trip to London. The Minister had arranged for the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights to visit Scotland Yard and to learn about policing projects in that great city. We saw the value of various innovative approaches to policing, including the involvement of reserve constables and what we might call community gardaí. There are many different views about such concepts. As part of that trip, Deputy Finian McGrath — I hope he does not mind me mentioning him again — and I went on a patrol in the suburbs with members of the Metropolitan Police.

Damien English (Meath, Fine Gael)
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Did the Deputies scare anybody?

Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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It was an amazing experience as I had never been in a police van before. I am making a serious point about the need to engage with the public, which is very important.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Some of the Deputy's constituents have been in Garda vans.

Charlie O'Connor (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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A number of Deputy Costello's constituents have had the same experience. I hope most of the crime that happens in my constituency is perpetrated by people from other areas, but I am not sure that is the case.

This has been an important debate. I am pleased to have participated in it yesterday and again today. It is important that we support the Garda, while pointing out the need for continued discipline and reform. I am happy to do that.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I always have great respect for the words of wisdom of the honourable Member from Tallaght. It is worth learning about what is happening on the ground in that area.

This is an important debate, as Deputy O'Connor said. We read in the newspapers every day about matters relating to the behaviour of members of the Garda Síochána. Such matters are of concern to communities throughout the country. It is time to address this issue. It was reported yesterday that the Garda Commissioner had sacked two gardaí who misbehaved while they were on security duty outside the United States Embassy in Dublin. The gardaí in question left their posts, went drinking in a local public house, had a personal dispute about the purchase of a round of drinks and ended up engaging in a bout of fisticuffs on the streets in full view of the staff of the embassy and some bemused members of the public. When one of the gardaí got into his car to drive home, he was stopped and charged with drink driving. Such "wild west" behaviour might seem like a rip-roaring comedy of errors, but it is unthinkable that two members of a modern, professional and efficient police force who were engaged in serious and important official duty outside a foreign embassy should act in such an irresponsible and indisciplined fashion in the middle of the day, in full view of the public.

A sub-committee of the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights published its findings in respect of the various Barron reports yesterday. The finding of the sub-committee that was the subject of the most headlines was that there was collusion with loyalist paramilitaries in the cases of certain murderous bombings in the Republic in the mid-1970s. This is the fourth report to be published and I was involved in the first three. We came across serious issues of incompetence and negligence by the Garda. There was a failure to pursue investigations, a failure to contact or consult bereaved families, as well as an unexplained loss of documents and evidence and a failure to protect the scene of the crime. All these issues were part of what was going on 30 years ago.

More recently the Morris tribunal reports highlighted levels of garda insubordination, indiscipline and corruption that are mind-boggling and that border on betrayal of the uniform and the oath. In the past five years, 57 members of the Garda Síochána have been sacked or have resigned as an alternative to being dismissed. Moreover, Garda effectiveness in police work has deteriorated rapidly. The detection rate has dropped from a relatively satisfactory 46% in 1998 to an unsatisfactory 34% in 2005. The early ideals of the Garda Síochána have been badly tarnished by significant sectors of the force.

When the London Metropolitan Police Force was established in 1829, its first commissioners, Rowan and Maguire, wrote:

Every member of the force must remember that his duty is to protect and help members of the public, no less than to apprehend guilty persons. Consequently, whilst prompt to prevent crime and arrest criminals, he must look upon himself as the servant and guardian of the general public and treat all law-abiding citizens, irrespective of their social positions, with unfailing patience, courtesy and good humour.

These sentiments mirror the statement of Michael Staines, the first Commissioner of the Garda Síochána in 1922, when he said that "the Garda Síochána will succeed not by force of arms but by their moral authority as servants of the people". That was why we had an unarmed police force, which was unique at the time.

The restoration of the Garda Síochána to its former integrity can only begin to be achieved by establishing a Patten style commission on policing into the role, culture and structures of the Garda Síochána in the 21st century. A root and branch overhaul is urgently required. Nothing less will do. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has funked the challenge and provisions of the Garda Síochána Act 2005 merely tinkered with the problems. There is no democratic oversight or accountability mechanism to direct, manage and hold the Garda Síochána to account at all times. The inspectorate, though laudable, is little more than an extension of the role of the Minister, acts on his instructions and reports to him. Likewise the ombudsman, though equally laudable, will deal with individual cases of complaint and will not be retrospective in its operation. Neither the inspectorate nor the ombudsman will direct, manage or hold the force accountable.

A Garda authority is essential to do all those things which the two new bodies cannot do, but as such an authority does not exist, there will be no ongoing democratic management, no supervision, no accountability and no direction provided to gardaí. The Garda Commissioner, the Minister and the Department will continue to rule just as before. A Garda authority is only a means to an end and is an effective democratic management tool. It will not of itself transform the force. It will not restore it to the ideals of its early days. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform turned his face against the only measure that could have transformed the force, restored its morale and made it an efficient professional and modern police force with ideals and integrity. He has lost a golden opportunity which may not be so readily available to a future Minister.

It is time to establish an independent commission on policing in Ireland. It would be similar to the independent commission on policing which was set up under the Good Friday Agreement in 1999 to create "a new beginning to policing in Northern Ireland with a police service capable of attracting and sustaining support from the community as a whole". Its terms of reference would require the identification and the setting up of new structures to ensure accountability, independent scrutiny and partnership with the community. Its methodology would involve a comprehensive consultative process. A public debate on policing in the 21st century would be initiated. The commission would take the debate to the highways and byways of the country. It would engage local communities in local parish halls across Ireland. Those professionally involved in policing would be consulted and best international practice would be ascertained.

The findings of the Patten Commission constitute a valuable resource and reservoir of material that can be drawn from and adopted. The Patten Commission was given 12 months to conduct its work and I believe that the new commission could complete its work in six to nine months. The process is crucial and a lasting new police culture of service can only be delivered if a sense of participation, responsibility and ownership is engendered in the consultative process. That applies to the public and to members of the force. They must participate and be engaged in the future of their service.

Education and training of Garda recruits has been carried out in Templemore College, County Tipperary, since the foundation of the State. The college in Templemore has served the country well and is internationally respected for the quality of work it does. It is located in a rural idyllic setting which is conducive to tranquil learning. The Minister recently constructed a four-storey extension to enable the training of an extra 2,000 recruits in the next couple of years. It is time we reviewed the role of the college in Templemore as the sole centre for the training and education of gardaí. A historic opportunity exists to locate a second Garda education and training centre in Grangegorman on the north side of Dublin. The Dublin Institute of Technology is building the largest third level college in the country on the Grangegorman site. A Garda Síochána college or a police academy could easily become the seventh faculty of the DIT. The 65-acre site has 30 acres of playing fields and will have a wide range of sporting facilities installed.

The site is in an inner city urban setting and reflects the general context in which most policing work is carried out. Modern Ireland has rapidly changed from rural to urban in character. Garda students would mix and interact with their peers in other third level disciplines, not just with their trainee colleagues. It is ideally located for in-service courses and for research studies in such areas as policing methods, crime statistics, criminology, substance abuse and community policing. All of these could be established and an integrated policy dimension could be added. It should be possible to share some facilities with the PSNI and to establish a link with the new police college in Northern Ireland. We could examine providing a centre of excellence for police forces from further afield. A Garda college in Dublin would not replace the Templemore college but add an extra dimension that would make the Garda Síochána a modern and professional force in tune with the best policing practice anywhere in the world.

I have come from the National Forum on Europe where I represent the Labour Party. The Chairman of that forum, Senator Maurice Hayes, was a valuable member of the Independent Commission on Policing in Northern Ireland and drew up the proposals for the ombudsman in the North. People think the ombudsman was part of the Patten commission proposals and do not realise that Senator Maurice Hayes had already developed the proposals before Patten had begun. He is a man with great expertise and experience. The forum model is interesting. It includes representatives of the Government parties and national Government organisations and the public is entitled to come and make submissions. It gives us an idea of what we could do if we were to engage in a proper dialogue on the future of policing in this country. Unfortunately we have not done that to date and it is time we did.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I intend to share time equally with Deputies Morgan and Gregory.

Is mian liom labhairt ar an rún an-tábhachtach seo, mar is ábhar é seo a bhíonn idir lámha agus á phlé ag a lán daoine ar fud mo dháilcheantair. Mar a dúirt an Teachta Costello, tá ceist an ombudsman lárnach in aon sórt athbhreithnithe nó athstruchtúraithe, chomh maith le smachtú ó thaobh iompair de don Gharda. I have met the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, Mrs. Nuala O'Loan.

I will not repeat what Deputy Costello said. There is already a good range of experience and a model for how we could proceed and it is amazing that our Government has not taken note of the effectiveness of the Police Ombudsman's office in the North more clearly. Perhaps there are other reasons for this, which I do not have time to go into. It disappoints people that the model in the North has not been more clearly followed.

There is a lack of progress on Garda resourcing in many other areas and we need to focus on that too. I have spoken to members of the force who do not wish to be quoted publicly and they have made it clear that there is great frustration on a number of levels. There is a resourcing mismatch. The Bellanaboy issue, with which the Minister is familiar, indicates a mismatch on the numbers of gardaí, who are needed in other parts of the country, being billeted in the Bellanaboy area and their behaviour. There was an investigation into the over-the-top reaction of gardaí there, which may be dealt with elsewhere. I do not want to prejudice that investigation by anything that is said here. Statistics show that the number of gardaí per person in the Dublin metropolitan area is 283, while in the eastern region I represent as part of my constituency of Dublin North there are 483 gardaí per person. In terms of the expectations and what they must deal with we ask gardaí outside the Dublin metropolitan area to work almost twice as hard as those inside, a fact which is clearly evident.

I have already dealt with the population explosion in the areas to which I refer. Swords is equal in size to Waterford city, Balbriggan to Clonmel, Skerries to Tullamore, Rush to Kilkenny city, Lusk to Athlone, Malahide and Portmarnock to Tralee, and Donabate, which does not even have a secondary school, is equal in size to Athy. Many of these areas do not have full-time Garda stations. Of that list only Swords, Balbriggan and Malahide have full-time stations, while the rest are closed for a large part of the day. Yet these places are expected to make do with a level of policing that would not be tolerated in other areas. That is a great injustice that is being perpetrated and perpetuated. It is not just an operational matter but must have political accountability and is not being dealt with. Would the Acting Chairman tell me when I have a minute left?

The Louth-Meath area, of which Dublin North is part, lacks a drugs task force, crime prevention units and other basic modern policing needs. Meanwhile the area is growing rapidly. The comparisons with other cities around the country make that obvious. It is not just an operational matter. Operation Freeflow was dealt with from a political perspective but this is more important. We are talking about life or death, murder in Swords, grenade attacks, abuse of young children and attempted abductions. We need the necessary policing; we do not have it and that is the first port of call.

Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate on the various reports before us and on Garda accountability, discipline and training more generally. Yesterday evening my colleague Deputy Ó Snodaigh used the short time available to him to focus on accountability failures and lack of discipline within the force. He spoke of the importance of the whistleblowers' charter. The Minister has indicated this is being developed. It is essential that this charter be robust and effective and we hope the Minister and the Garda Commissioner take on board the advice of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties on this. The ICCL's report entitled Implementing Morris: An Agenda for Change contains a range of other important recommendations. I urge the Minister promptly to consider all these and to report his intentions on them to the Oireachtas including the reasons behind, and evidence supporting, any decision not to endorse and implement a recommendation contained in the ICCL report.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh also spoke of the faith so many of us will be placing in the newly established Garda Inspectorate and Garda Ombudsman Commission. I agree with him and caution that they must be adequately resourced if they are to deliver on their potential to renew community confidence in the Garda. According to the Estimates the Ombudsman Commission is to receive less money next year than its equivalent in the Six Counties, yet it is to oversee a significantly larger police force and three times the geographic area and population. This does not add up. If the Minister is committed to accountability and discipline in the police force will he offer a guarantee today that the Ombudsman Commission will open its doors to complainants on 1 January 2007? I call on him to make this commitment.

The Barr report into the killing of Mr. John Carthy at Abbeylara by gardaí highlights a range of grave issues that must be addressed. The report on the siege and the immediate period leading to his death makes it clear that there are urgent training needs in the force including dealing with people with mental health issues and the management of situations involving firearms. At this year's annual general meeting of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors the general secretary declared that Garda training on firearms is far behind international best practice. Gardaí receive more training on how to clean a firearm than on how to manage a firearm situation. My colleague tabled a parliamentary question to the Minister asking how he intended to rectify the grave shortcoming. The Minister replied: "The Garda Commissioner has my full support in the provision of firearms facilities in the Garda Síochána up to international best practice". There is no acknowledgement of the problem identified by the head of one of the larger Garda associations and no detailed plan on how it will be rectified. Any objective analysis of the conduct of gardaí during the "Reclaim the Streets" protest and more recently at Ballinaboy, County Mayo makes clear the need for the development of a human rights complaints model for the policing of protests and for training to complement this. On RTE news, the country witnessed gardaí at Ballinaboy throw a man over a barrier and into a six foot ditch. He suffered grave injury. Other serious Garda assaults on peaceful protesters also took place. I hope we see these gardaí held to account and punished for their actions but, under this Government, I doubt that will happen.

Tony Gregory (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I support the establishment of a police authority referred to by the Minister yesterday. He rejected this proposal on the basis that accountability should be through the Minister and the Garda Commissioner. We are debating accountability because that system has failed dismally to deliver it. A total transformation, of which an effective police authority is an essential part, is required, not the reformist steps the Minister is slowly taking.

I refer to one of the six reports before us, the Report of the Commission of Investigation (Dean Lyons case) by Mr. George Birmingham, a matter I have raised for many years during the tenure of various Ministers with responsibility for justice. The case relates to the Grangegorman murders that occurred in my constituency. When I raised the case in the House, I received replies from different Ministers that no such inquiry was required. So much for accountability through the Garda Commissioner and the Minister. A blatant case of injustice was raised on numerous occasions but we were told no inquiry was required.

Granting the commission of investigation was a concession that had to be dragged out of the incumbent Minister. He stated he saw no case for it but the commission was allowed after the case was raised repeatedly. Where is the accountability in this report? There is no action by the Minister except setting up what he calls an expert group to examine interviewing procedures. No one is held to account.

The report is thorough in its detail but its conclusions are questionable and raise more questions than they answer. The Minister's comments on the Dean Lyons report are selective and skirt over the more damning aspects. The Minister accepts the conclusion that there was no deliberate attempt to undermine the rights of Dean Lyons. That sentence must be considered. Three months after recommending that Dean Lyons be charged with the murder of one woman, after Mark Nash had confessed in great detail to the murders, the investigating Garda team advised the DPP to proceed with the charge and add a murder charge in respect of the second woman. Was there no attempt to undermine the rights of Dean Lyons? The second recommendation is described by Mr. Birmingham as "extremely difficult to understand and even harder to justify". No one is held to account.

Were the gardaí who interviewed Dean Lyons untrained and inexperienced? They were the most senior gardaí at the time, including Chief Superintendent Seán Camon, head of the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation; Chief Superintendent Dick Kelly, head of the Garda district with responsibility for the constituency I represent; and Detective Superintendent Cormac Gordon who was promoted to Chief Superintendent after this episode and is now in charge of the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation. This is a feature of such matters, where gardaí are promoted rather than being subject to disciplinary measures. These people insisted on proceeding with a charge of double murder against an unfortunate heroin addict despite the fact that junior investigating officers repeatedly advised that Dean Lyons's first statement had no detail, the second statement was unsound and that the charge should not proceed unless new evidence was found. Junior investigating gardaí persistently recommended this to senior gardaí but senior gardaí now deny this ever happened despite various Garda witnesses. This is a situation similar to Donegal.

I am pleased the Minister is now in the Chamber. Why have no disciplinary measures been taken against these gardaí? It is a simple question. None of us likes the idea of public inquiries but the conclusions in this investigation create more questions than are answered and make the case for a fuller inquiry. The relatives of the victims also feel their voices were not heard during the investigation. They are deeply concerned that nobody has yet been charged with one of the most horrific murders in the history of the State.

The parents of Dean Lyons feel very strongly that what happened to their unfortunate son has been the subject of yet another cover-up because of his lack of education, heroin addiction, homelessness and the fact that he was up against five very senior gardaí. Those gardaí deny everything now and the Minister is prepared to let them away with it. I find that very difficult to understand and hope that the Minister addresses it in his conclusion. His few remarks about the Dean Lyons case yesterday simply skirted over these issues and failed to deal with them properly. I would like to know what the Minister feels about the points I have made.

I accept that I have run into the next speaker's slot, but I am glad to have had the opportunity to have made those few points.

Damien English (Meath, Fine Gael)
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There has been a fair extension of the time available and there is no rush on us. I welcome the opportunity to say a few words on Garda reform, the reports on which I also welcome. I acknowledge the time and knowledge the reports represent as a body of work. The people whose actions led to the publication of the reports are patriots in the truest sense. The whistleblowers who opened up the system and laid bare its faults did so not because they wanted to do harm or destroy it, but because they could see others doing harm and destroying the system. Those who facilitated the whistleblowers must also be commended, including Senator Higgins and Deputy Howlin. All involved have demonstrated courage and patriotism and we owe them a great deal of thanks.

Speaking of patriots, I note that our gardaí have generally served the State well since its foundation. They have done so day to day and without arms, which circumstance is almost unique in Europe. It is to their credit and in some ways a tribute to their success. While gardaí must have the ability to defend themselves we should try as much as possible to maintain the current system and preserve the type of society in which unarmed policing is possible. The State and the Garda force which has defended it were formed more than 80 years ago. We are already well into the 21st century and must ensure that the values of truth, honour, courage and determination continue to be the hallmarks of Garda service and those who direct and manage it for the next 80 years also.

The concept of public service is inherent in the values set out. Those who have been found to have done wrong failed in their duty and forgot that being a garda is about public service. It is an issue we must consider across the board, from the Garda to the health service and politics and encourage the notion that we are talking here about the desire to serve one's country. If one takes a job as a public servant working for the State, one's first duty is to serve. This has been forgotten in many of our public institutions, including Departments and the Garda, where people have forgotten that their jobs are not about preventing people from obtaining help, but to facilitate them. Public service is about doing the right thing by the country and its citizens. We can set out all the procedures we want for Departments, the HSE and other bodies, but if people do not believe their duty is to serve, we will fail in our goals.

The point has been missed across the board, not just in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and people are forgetting that they are public servants. We have a great deal of work to do to turn that state of affairs around. The Minister is one person who knows about being a public servant and he has a desire to serve. He could do other work anywhere he wanted, which makes him an example of the values we need to instill throughout the ranks in the various arms of the State. The concept of public service is missing at local authority level, in the health service and elsewhere, but people must be encouraged to believe in what they are doing. I hope we can get the message across through education, incentives or by other means. It is very clear in other states that people believe and take pride in public service, no matter at what level they serve. If people believed in what they were doing, we would not need so many investigations and rules and authorities to oversee them. They would have a desire to do the right thing, like the gardaí who first entered the force more than 80 years ago.

I do not refer to the first gardaí for historical or rhetorical purposes, but to emphasise in the context of the reports and the revelations which prompted them that a select but determined few have tarnished the reputations of many. I know many serving and retired gardaí who have done the State and their local communities great service, which should be acknowledged rather than lost sight of in this debate. Those gardaí are disgusted and ashamed at the behaviour of some of their colleagues. The actions of a few should not detract from the hard work of the many. Unfortunately, the revelations have done great damage as did the revelations about the church and professional politics. It is a sign of changing times and such times require reform to keep up with them. We debate reform in the House for everyone else, but do not lead. Our own place of work requires reform in the way we do our business. The House does not always function as the Legislature of a proper democracy should, but if we set the pace, we can direct others to reform too. It is a message for all of us rather than for any particular Minister. The process must be led by those in Government whether its members are drawn from this or the other side of the House. While I accept that it is easy to talk about these matters when one is in Opposition and that things are different when one is in Government, some day soon we will be forced to realise that we cannot expect every other organisation to reform but not ourselves.

Public confidence is vital to any profession that wishes to carry out its work, especially in the areas of law and order. As the lengthy debate on policing in Northern Ireland has shown, communities must have complete faith in the fairness and goodwill of those appointed to look after their interests, be they law-makers or their enforcers. The same is true of religion. As legislators who run or want to run the country, we must do all in our power to restore public confidence in the Garda. The Minister spoke last night about the process restoring pride in the force, which I hope it will. However, he spoke as if the process had succeeded already, which is not the case. This is a work in progress. There continues to be a lack of confidence among the people who must have their faith in the Garda restored. A great deal of the solution will be down to provision of time, effort and resources by the Garda, whose members want to do the right thing. This provision is not always possible for various reasons. Communities must be able to believe that gardaí will do all they can to do what is right and support them. I fear that among some communities there is a them-and-us attitude and gardaí are spoken of as a distant group of people. It should not be like that. Gardaí are part of the community, which is a fact communities must recognise. Communities need the gardaí and both parties must be encouraged to trust each other and work together.

Reform must not be carried out for its own sake. Cosmetic change is meaningless and has no value. Change must be deep and real to ensure that the old values that have worked and in which we all believe remain fresh and central as we go forward. With all due respect to its members, the Government tries to convey the impression that it leads events, but at best it is merely reacting to them. Even this reaction is not always as positive or proactive as the people I represent and I would like. Last night in his opening remarks, the Minister said the subject of the debate was strong action on the part of the Government. While there has been strong action after events, the subject of the debate has been the strong action of a few people who were not afraid to take on the system. I accept that the Minister was not in office when the process started, but we must acknowledge that it was people acting independently who challenged the system and it is to them that we owe our thanks.

Our system of law and order requires complete reform and renewal, not for its own sake, but because a system which has worked historically must change and evolve if it is to continue to be effective. What worked well before will not necessarily continue to work. We must change while maintaining our values. Ireland has changed significantly, its population is growing and it has vast new communities. We have a population that is often imbued with new or strange values fostered by television and cinematic images that are neither realistic nor sustainable.

We have major problems of unmanaged stress and lack of personal self-development and fulfilment which are driving large numbers of people to abuse alcohol and drugs. Drug abuse causes crime as the abusers try to feed their habit and alcohol abuse causes anti-social behaviour in many towns and cities. Those are new realities to which our system must adapt.

We spent a great deal of time lecturing Nationalists and Unionists in Northern Ireland on the reason their policing system was wrong, why their alternatives do not work and suggesting the type of policing structures they should put in place. If these calls are to mean anything we should accept the Patten report in so far as it is relevant to our system. We should seek to implement the recommendations in the Patten report in the Republic. That would be a practical example of North-South co-operation and an important step towards a united Ireland, not necessarily of states or even justice systems but of common values, openness, transparency, accountability and natural justice. Perhaps I seek too much from a Government which in 2002 filleted the rainbow Government's landmark Freedom of Information Act to ensure the revelations of how it bought the 2002 election and then savagely cut back afterwards could not be repeated, perhaps with an eye to the 2007 general election.

The abuses revealed in these reports are unacceptable but we must learn from them and react to them. Gardaí must be open to expertise and skills, including those of management, which do not necessarily come from within their own ranks. Those who have academic, professional or life experience, especially in management areas, should be allowed help their country and donate their time and talents by being able to apply for management positions in the Garda. We must open the force to external talent and make it easier for people to be recruited into the Garda. When they have been brought in, they should be accepted into the club. They cannot be treated differently because they did not come through the same ranks. We have expertise at all levels, something we discussed in a previous Bill where this is allowed. It is possible the Commissioner wants to do that but I want to encourage it. There is a great deal of talent available. People who are trained to a high level but who could not retrain as a garda to get a job at a high level must be taken in at the position for which they have been trained.

Gardaí must be doing what they have been trained to do, that is, police. They should not be tied up with pen pushing and democracy, and the gardaí themselves will say that. Gardaí at local level should be able to avail of knowledge and expertise through the use of community policing, which should exist in every district. Communities should have a greater knowledge of Garda strength in the locality and at the very least be able to suggest how such resources should be prioritised to better serve them. We must have the local police forum.

Garda must be closer to the communities, not in such a way that they are compromised but that they know their communities, the people, the potential blackspots in an area and the potential offenders in a way that helps them to police better. I fear many young gardaí leaving college believe the job involves a certain number of hours a day and then they can go home. Policing is different. Gardaí must be involved in the community. They must engage in it on a constant basis. They must talk to the local shopkeeper and pick up information. I know community gardaí do that but all gardaí must realise that the job is more than simply putting in a few hours every day. It must become their life and they must be in the community listening to and befriending people. Policing is part of all that but I fear that gardaí leaving college have a different view, and that must be examined. It is not all about degrees and other qualifications. It is about having someone with common sense who can do the job in uniform, mixing with the people and preventing crime as well as apprehending criminals. In the past, gardaí who lived in an area prevented crime. It may have been petty crime but they prevented that by being observant. That approach is missing today in many cases, mainly due to the size of populations and so on. I do not necessarily blame lack of resources for that but we should try to get back to that because it worked in the past.

I want clarity on two points the Minister made last night. First, he said the force was now 20% larger than it was in 1997. Second, he stated he had assured the Garda Commissioner that he will not lack the resources to fight crime. That is untrue. To take my town as an example, we have fewer gardaí now than we had in the 1980s yet our population has increased threefold. Without quoting figures or crime incidents and so on, it does not make sense to say there are extra gardaí. The population has grown by more than 20% and it is not a big deal, therefore, to say the force has increased by 20%. The Garda figures do not match the population areas. Perhaps some areas have too many gardaí. I do not know but I know that certain areas have not got the required number of gardaí to do the job right. It is not true to say the Commissioner has enough resources. There are not enough gardaí trained in the use of firearms. Detectives continue to escort money collections when an ordinary garda could do that. That means the detective is unable to do his or her job. Despite the peace process gardaí continue to escort vehicles carrying explosives. I would like to say more on that but I will not because I want to make another important point.

Accountability is not just about Garda accountability. It is also about this process and the way we do business. I asked a number of questions by way of a letter in February 2005 — I will not name the case — to find out how a Garda inquiry into a murder which happened ten years previously was proceeding. It was on behalf of a woman who wanted to find out what happened in her husband's case because there was a lack of information in that regard. I got a response to the letter saying the matter was being looked into. I made frequent phone calls on the matter and also put down a parliamentary question. A letter arrived apologising for the delay and informing me that the Garda report had to be examined. That took four or five months. In July 2005 I was told the Garda report contained a number of irregularities and had to go back to the Garda to be checked. It was a year later, in July 2006, before I got the information on that Garda inquiry report and it was not sufficient. That woman is still waiting for information. She rang me at one stage to give me a three line website address which she said contained the report on her husband's death. That is not an accountable system. It is not a system which helps victims get answers or one which would instill confidence in people. I do not apportion blame to anyone in that regard. I am saying that is the system but it is not a fair one for anybody. I am sure the Minister and other people have better things to be doing than answering my questions but if the system worked I would not have to do that and that poor lady would not be sitting at home ten years later waiting for answers. Perhaps the answers she wants are not available but we should be able to give her answers and bring some closure to the case. It should not be left unanswered. We all have a duty when it comes to reform of the Garda, its structures and the justice system. It is time we started to talk about it in a broader sense because there is much more than just one category.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am delighted to have an opportunity to speak on the important motion before the House on accountability, discipline and training in the Garda Síochána. I have family and friends in the Garda Síochána and they are proud to be members of that force. Members of the Garda Síochána should feel privileged to have such a unique job in guarding the State. Since the foundation of the State men and women throughout the country have guarded our citizens and protected our State in very difficult times. In the 1960s and 1970s, particularly in the Border areas, times were very difficult for the Garda Síochána. For many years people were afraid to say anything about the truth of what was happening. Along with Deputy English I commend my constituency colleague, Deputy Howlin, and my party colleague, Senator Jim Higgins, because if it were not for them we might not be having this debate in that they raised the problems in Donegal. That might still be happening were it not for the courage of those two people. I commend them for the way they went about their business and never gave up in trying to bring this matter to a head. The contribution the Garda Síochána has made to the State has been immense, as men and women performing their duties as public servants.

I recall when I was in primary school the Garda Síochána would visit regularly. I am trying to put in context the trust in which the Garda Síochána was held within the community. I call on the Minister to ensure that gardaí right across the country visit primary and secondary schools on a regular basis. By visiting schools they build up trust within the community and it is very important that this is done with pupils from a very early age, from young children to teenagers. If the initiative is taken with young children I have no doubt that a crucial degree of trust can be built up over time. I ask the Minister to look into that because I do not believe it is happening at present. I speak to many school principals who tell me they never see a garda visiting the school these days. It is vitally important this is investigated.

Unfortunately, however, various issues have arisen in recent years to tarnish the picture. The Donegal case in particular has changed public perception of the Garda Síochána and damaged morale within the force. Virtually every Garda station has been affected, as I can testify from my constituency, in Enniscorthy, New Ross, Wexford and Gorey. There are, however, genuine hard-working gardaí on the beat doing an extremely good job on a day-to-day basis and they are not thanked for the extra effort they put in. Many work well into off-duty hours to protect our citizens, whether finding out information or whatever.

I am disappointed, however, at the fall-off in the involvement of local gardaí at community level. In the past the local garda might have been chairman of the GAA club and involved in local parish organisations and community initiatives. He knew every man, woman and child in the parish, but that does not happen any more. One cannot blame the Minister, the Commissioner, sergeants etc. Lifestyles have changed and people want to get away from the job. They put in their duty hours and just want to get away from work because the job has become so demanding. A garda might be policing in Enniscorthy and living in Gorey or New Ross, or even Arklow, Waterford, Kilkenny or Carlow. That is very disappointing. I would like to see a return to the practice whereby when a garda is posted to a particular station, he or she lives in the immediate area. There is no doubt that a garda will find out far more about what is going on in a community when he or she is off duty rather than when he or she is working.

When one looks at what has been highlighted in the Morris, Barr, Birmingham and Nally reports, it is incumbent on the Minister, the Commissioner politicians and gardaí at all levels to preserve the confidence and respect of the Garda Síochána. That confidence and respect has been removed from them because of bad eggs in the basket, so to speak, the bad gardaí. It is amazing what a small number can do to destroy the rest of the force.

It is similar to what has happened in the Oireachtas, with Deputies and Senators taking bribes and moneys for planning permission or whatever over many years. The public perception, as a result, is that we are all the same. The same condition has crept into the Garda Síochána, namely, that they are all the same, but they are not. To go back to my original point, if people are educated from a very young age about the Garda Síochána, they will learn that the gardaí are not all the same and that there are very genuine members of the force. We must demonstrate our appreciation of the Garda Síochána, however. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Members of the Oireachtas and the Government must ensure the force has the equipment it needs, is appreciated and has the resources to carry out its role in a professional manner. This is something the Government has neglected to do in recent years and a major catch-up initiative is required to ensure the Garda Síochána has proper resources.

A member of the force told me a few months ago that there was a new communications system in his station. He was delighted because, as the Minister knows, the old CB system has broken down. Everybody can break into it. If I am talking about a drug pusher in Enniscorthy, someone in Rathnew or wherever, who may, himself or herself, be the pusher, is able to find out. The garda in question took out a mobile phone and to use it he had to have credit in it. I was amazed. I see that the Minister is smiling, perhaps he is amazed as well. I could not understand that he had to have credit in the phone to use it.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister uses that type of phone.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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On the one hand he welcomed this with open arms because it meant a wholly different communications system, but on the other, he felt it was better with the old CB system because at least it could be used. How one gets credit into this communications system I do not know. For the sake of argument, if a garda was to apprehend a drug criminal and found he had no communication, he would have to rely on his own mobile phone. It is not acceptable that a member of the Garda Síochána has to use his or her own mobile phone to report to the Garda station, look for back-up or whatever, and pay his or her own bill in this regard at the end of the month. If the Minister shared that with his counterparts in other countries, I doubt if they would be impressed.

There is lack of confidence in the force among the public. I sent out a crime survey in recent months to 15,000 homes in County Wexford. There were 39 questions and I asked people to give their views on the Garda Síochána. I do not want to be parochial in saying Wexford needs more gardaí, which of course it does, but one question I asked was whether people believed the Garda Síochána had adequate resources to do the job. An astounding 85% said it does not. Off the top of my head I recall that between 75% and 80% said they do not report a crime because they believe it will not be properly investigated. I encourage people, no matter what is done to them, whether a window is broken or they are affected by anti-social behaviour, to report the matter to the local gardaí, at least. The Garda may not be able to make a visit or to solve the problem straight away. However, people should at least report the problem or crime because it is important that the Garda enters into the PULSE system the fact that Mrs. Murphy, Mrs. Doyle or whoever contacted it. The PULSE system has really worked for the Garda Síochána in that gardaí are now able to enter a name into it to ascertain whether any criminal charges or reports are associated with it.

I will be parochial by raising the issue of rural Garda stations. This pertains to questions regarding local and community policing. When I was growing up, I could state that Garda stations in three or four parishes in my locality were open. At present, however, a station might be manned for one or two hours during the day, or every second, third or fourth day, which is unacceptable. When a local Garda station is open, it adds to public confidence in that people are aware that someone is present. Many rural Garda stations have been closed. Will the Minister outline whether he believes the new Garda Reserve could play a role in manning local Garda stations?

I come from an extremely rural and mountainous part of County Wexford in which several Garda stations have been closed. I ask the Minister to investigate whether the Garda Reserve can play a role in ensuring that rural Garda stations are manned. Even if this was only from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. every evening or whatever, the Garda Reserve could play a significant role in maintaining local rural stations.

Deputy English spoke about reform for the sake of carrying out reform. In the aftermath of the events in County Donegal in particular, the Minister now has the perfect opportunity to carry out some real reforms. He will not be able to do so within one or two years as the process will take several years. However, it would mean something to people if he was to set in place a plan for the Garda Síochána spanning the next three to five years or whatever that would carry out some real reforms.

Deputy Costello discussed the training regime in Templemore. Although it is good to see the new additional gardaí coming on stream — I would like this to happen at a faster rate — the training of gardaí in Templemore must be examined. Members of the force who have been employed elsewhere for two to three years previously can learn what happens within communities and can learn people skills and so on. However, those trainees who go directly from secondary school to Templemore do not have the same skills as those who had mingled with local people in a job or whatever. People skills are important to the Garda Síochána and a garda who leaves Templemore with people skills will be extremely successful. Such officers will undoubtedly climb the ranks through sergeant, detective and all the way to assistant commissioner or commissioner because of the importance of people skills.

I omitted to mention the language barrier that has arisen in recent years with the welcome arrival of many people of European and other different nationalities. I was pleased to learn that people of different nationalities were to be brought into the force. Although I may have missed this development in recent months, when will it happen? I ask the Minister to address this issue in his closing remarks. What role will they play in the force? In coming years, they will play an important reforming role within the force.

I was delighted to speak in this debate and the Minister should take on board some of my comments.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I am glad to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate. At the outset, it is important to acknowledge the work that went into the reports that led to it and I thank those involved. Lessons should be learned from the reports and their recommendations should be put in place as speedily as possible. At the outset of such a debate, it is important that Members, in their capacity as legislators, should indicate their support for the work done by the Garda Síochána and should state that the Garda has done and continues to do excellent work in our communities. To a large extent, it has served us well in the period since its foundation at the establishment of the State.

Obviously, times have changed and in recent years in particular, undoubtedly there has been a serious reduction in respect for the Garda Síochána within the community. There is also no doubt that some of the incidents to which the reports that led Members to this debate have referred have contributed to such a reduction in respect. I refer to the cases in Donegal and Grangegorman, the Carthy case, the Rossiter case in my home town and the recent case in Gort. I also refer to the over-the-top actions of the Garda in certain circumstances at Bellanaboy, including its recording of elected public representatives like me, who were going about their duly elected business at what was an absolutely peaceful protest. All such incidents have contributed to the lack of, or decrease in respect for the Garda Síochána that has taken place over the years.

Obviously, there are other reasons also, such as a discernible general reduction in respect for authority figures in life. It is important to learn from what has happened and from the reports, to acknowledge the work done and to implement the reports' recommendations.

I wish to refer briefly to a number of issues that must be considered. Apart from their normal duties as gardaí, I acknowledge the involvement of local gardaí in their communities. In the locality from which I come, gardaí still perform excellent work in community organisations such as sporting clubs, residents' associations or whatever. At present, however, some gardaí do not live in the communities they serve and there is rapid rotation in some cases, particularly of senior officers. These issues must be examined and addressed. The key to this entire area is the link between the gardaí and the community and the consequent respect and co-operation that the community and the gardaí can gel together. Certainly, the fact that some gardaí do not now live in the communities they serve does not help that gelling between themselves and the local community, and the position in the senior ranks and the quick transfer of gardaí serving in senior ranks is also not good for morale locally and should be examined and addressed. For example, within a period of approximately two years three different superintendents served in Clonmel in south Tipperary. There is something not right about that. I draw no inference about any of those superintendents, all of whom did a good job, but serving such a short period at a senior level within a force like the Garda Síochána cannot be good for the force at local level over a period of time and it should be addressed.

There is no doubt that the vast majority of gardaí do an excellent job and that the various incidents outlined in these reports have led not only to a reduction in respect for the force but also to a reduction of morale within the force. What is vitally important is the connection between the Garda and the community and the accountability of the Garda to the community. People feel these important aspects do not now exist or have failed in the past, and we should take this opportunity to install full transparent and independent accountability. Many people feel the accountability that pertained in the past, through the Commissioner and the Minister, has failed. I had hoped that the model of the Ombudsman's office in the North would be adopted and I would hope even at this late stage that another look might be taken at it because that is one of the key elements in ensuring a fully efficient and effective community-based Garda Síochána. There must be a situation where the public feels the gardaí are absolutely accountable and that if a person makes a complaint, the matter will be examined independently and reported fully.

We expect that the Garda Ombudsman Commission will be established in the new year. While the Minister should have gone further with it, even that commission's effectiveness will be subject to the resources and funding available to it and I worry that the funding for that area in the coming year may not be adequate to make it effective and efficient and to ensure people feel that it is doing a good and transparent job.

I have raised on a number of occasions the question of the link between the community and the Garda, particularly in the area of the appointment of community gardaí. Not enough is being done in that area to ensure that the link is built up. In many areas there are no dedicated community gardaí, but there are certainly not enough such gardaí. The key to turning around difficulties like antisocial behaviour and people feeling that there is no point in reporting matters to the Garda, and to turning around the decrease in respect for the Garda Síochána, is to get dedicated community gardaí working in and liaising with local communities, dealing with local tenants' organisations and dealing with young people on a daily basis. If such a high profile highly visible community Garda operation were done properly, it would provide a highly effective and efficient Garda Síochána which would be accepted by the overwhelming majority of the community. It would also have the advantage of nipping in the bud the difficulties that will arise down the road because, as we all know, youngsters in local areas are taking the example of their older brothers, sisters or neighbours and the crime cycle continues. Even if one deals with the initial difficulty, then somebody else takes that person's place and the cycle continues. I would hope that the Minister in the area of operations, which he will state is a matter for the Commissioner, would lay down guidelines and emphasise the need for highly visible, high profile community gardaí on the beat in all towns — certainly in all urban areas and large housing estates — throughout the country. That is the key to the future of the Garda Síochána.

I hope the Minister might take some of those points on board in the recommendations and decisions he will make in introducing change into the Garda Síochána. The other point with which I will finish is the importance of the civilianisation of the Garda at all levels, not only behind the reception desk in the local Garda station but right to the highest levels of the force.