Dáil debates
Tuesday, 21 November 2006
Leaders' Questions
4:00 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In the programme for Government, the Taoiseach stated it was intended to create a society where all people could feel safe in their communities, businesses and homes. While last weekend's weather was bad, it was even worse for crime on the streets. An innocent young woman, Babia Saulite, was assassinated on her doorstep, two young girls were sexually assaulted in Dublin and an elderly priest was savagely beaten with a slash hook or some other bladed instrument. I wonder what the two Hassan boys would think of those words from the programme for Government if they were able to read?
In the Government's ten years, parts of Dublin and other cities have become a 21st century dodge city. In some locations it has not gone from bad to worse but to the dogs. This is not just the case with organised crime but with murder, rape, beatings and stabbings, all now part of everyday life in cities and rural areas. The murder rate is up by 25%, rape cases by 33% and gun crime by 44%. It is correct that the budget for justice has doubled in the past ten years, but crime rates are soaring and detection rates are falling. The human traffickers caught in Cork yesterday will see from the statistics that no serious crime boss has been jailed in the past five years. It is perfectly obvious from the statements of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who referred to the murder of the unfortunate Donna Cleary as the sting of a dying wasp that he knows as much about the life cycle of a wasp as he does about the knee-height of a grasshopper.
What is the Government's response to this deplorable situation? What will it do about it? When will we see the 500 extra gardaí and officers out on the streets? When will Garda stations be properly equipped and resourced so that the response time is more immediate and the detection rate more effective? When will hardened criminals be put away for a long time? When will the law get its priorities right and defend and protect home owners in their homes?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I join Deputy Kenny in condemning the murder of the Latvian woman. It was an appalling murder at the weekend. Whether someone is executed by a hit squad or criminal gang or some associated individual does not matter. The way this woman was executed requires us to do everything we can to find the culprits and those who had anything to do with the organisation of the killing.
I can give the records and statistics of what happened last weekend which have been furnished to my Department and the resources that have been committed to dealing with them. All we can do, however, in several of these crimes is to try to catch or prevent these criminals as the legislation empowers us to do. The resources of the Garda are available through Operation Anvil and the special Garda operations and the numbers of gardaí in special units.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Operation Anvil refers only to overtime. It is not a special Garda operation.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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We are looking for results, not resources.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is difficult for the gardaí to be at every house and every street corner. They cannot be there.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Instead of resources we have overtime.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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They will do all they can to bring the culprits in the Swords murder, the attack on the young girls in Swords and the other incidents to justice. The Government has discussed this matter. The Garda has stated that it has the resources not only in numbers, but in effectively unlimited overtime in the special units dealing with these issues.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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This applies particularly to the groups on operations to try to stop this type of crime in certain areas. We discussed that in recent weeks. We continue to put more gardaí into the force. We know the number of those coming through the colleges and Templemore. The Commissioner has been reporting to the Minister who has been reporting to the Government. We will just have to continue to do this in every way we can in terms of resources, laws and efforts to stop the culprits. The law and the will of the Garda exist, but it is not always easy to catch the perpetrators of such ferocious crimes.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the one hand, Ireland can be painted as going from economic strength to economic strength but, on the other, in one weekend a young mother was assassinated, two young girls were sexually assaulted and an elderly priest was savagely beaten. I have attended meetings recently in parts of this city where mothers have said that their children must walk to school past drug pushers on street corners. They have notified the Garda of this, who I hope are taking action.
Other mothers have told me that their children go to school past kerb walkers and prostitutes who return after the gardaí have moved them on. The gun amnesty has not worked. One can buy a Glock, a hit or a life for a few hundred euro in this city. The outcome of last weekend is devastating for everybody concerned and for the reputation of this country.
The Law Reform Commission is the instrument for change in the law. The Fine Gael Party proposed 18 months ago that home defence should be changed by law to the effect that retreat should not be mandatory on a person in his or her home. The Law Reform Commission has recommended this in a consultation paper. The law is inadequate. We need extra protection for homeowners and they should not be asked to retreat when faced with an invasion of their homes and privacy.
Will the Taoiseach act urgently on this recommendation which requires no money, budget or constitutional amendment? It is a straightforward recommendation to give more power to the homeowner to protect and defend his or her home than to the perpetrators of aggressive and invasive crimes.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste has committed to seriously considering the defence and protection of the family home, with a view to its importance to the public as a whole. He has been examining the legal issues involved and these will be taken into account in a consultation paper which will be subject to his approval. The paper sets out the issues surrounding the various points in this matter; it is a long consultation paper. I am not sure it will resolve many of the problems we must deal with but at least both sides of the argument will be put and it will contain the Tánaiste's views on the matter.
The figures on serious crime and murder here compare favourably to those of other countries. That, however, is not the point. There are too many murders and guns. I do not know how much a hit man costs but whether the price is great or small, it is a serious danger.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are too many hardened criminals at large, regardless of the number of cases. We have told the Garda time and again that we are prepared to provide the resources in the special units, through additional gardaí and overtime, to break these gangs.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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We do not have even half the extra gardaí promised two years ago.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Garda have been successful in some of these cases. I agree these people need to be locked up with lengthy sentences. Although I have seen some briefings on some of these cases, I am not sure whether those involved are criminal gangs or individuals. That, however, should not stop us. We must make an example of some of these hardened gangs or individuals who act for their own reasons and sometimes for related family reasons — we have had a few such cases of late. We must clamp down hard on serious crime. It is neither acceptable nor something that any of us wants to see continue.
Being tough is the only way to deal with crime, through detection and prison sentences, which seem to be all that people understand. We have tough laws and wherever they are lacking, the House has always shown itself ready to bring forward more Bills. We have more criminal justice Bills than other legislative measures before the House in any year, whether to give the Garda numbers or resources. We have a young force now and many special units. We must encourage them and give the Garda every resource possible to deal with criminals because what they try to get away with is unacceptable.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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This morning Greencore announced plans for a €1.1 billion development on the site of the old sugar plant at Carlow. I hope, in principle, that appropriate development will take place there and that it will contribute to the regeneration of Carlow and employment at the site. Last night I had the opportunity to meet the former workers of Greencore who explained to me in respect of the recent redundancy that the company had refused to implement the Labour Court recommendation. They went back three times to the Labour Court for clarification and on three occasions Greencore refused to implement the recommendation. The court has unequivocally set out that the interpretation of the workers is the correct interpretation. Despite that, Greencore has come up with an interpretation that leaves the workers I met last night in Carlow, on average, €25,000 short. A total of €4.4 million is owed to the workers under the Labour Court recommendation. The company has refused to attend the national implementation body and has left the workers hanging.
Is it acceptable that a major public company, which incidentally did proportionately well out of the compensation fund as compared to how growers and workers fared, should plan a €1.1 billion development at the Carlow site while owing €4.4 million to the manual workers at Mallow and Carlow? An argument also exists about why the Government permitted Greencore to shut this plant when it might have been adapted for bio-fuels.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The time has concluded.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle. We ended up paying taxpayer's money to Greencore to knock down the plant and are now going to build a new biofuel plant. Having facilitated this, even the few bob due to the workers under the agreement is not being paid to them. It is utterly unacceptable that a major company such as this should evade its responsibilities to the workforce and trample all over social partnership. Greencore will not even answer the request from the Secretary General of the Taoiseach's Department to attend the national implementation body. I want to know, as do the workers at Carlow and Mallow, what the Government intends to do about it.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rabbitte met the workers yesterday and a number of my colleagues met them in the past week. They have been engaged in briefing sessions. They were with the Minister for Foreign Affairs on Sunday morning. A number of Deputies from my party have raised the issue with me also.
I wish to make three points I have previously made on this issue. Greencore did extremely well from the European Union package and the arrangements that were outlined in the agreement on the restructuring of the sugar industry. We had an obligation to fulfil the full terms of that agreement to get the maximum resources. We did that. At the time I made the point, as did the Minister for Agriculture and Food and other Ministers, that Greencore was doing very well, and while many of the farmers and workers involved believed they could get another few harvesting years, the least they could expect was for these issues to be resolved. The Minister and others stated at the time that the arrangement should be completed regarding the redundancy package and that other issues should also be resolved by Greencore.
The State always honours Labour Court decisions. In the decades since 1946, it is very rare for it not to honour cases. I expect any company, especially large public companies, to do likewise. I expect Greencore to do likewise. The officials dealing with social partnership and the trade union movements are very clear on what they feel about this case.
The company expects to carry out a large development and to win support for this in terms of zoning changes and restructuring plans for the plant. I wish the company well in its long-term development plans in terms of trying to generate employment and new action. It is a small price for it to pay to deal with the staff and pay up. As I stated outside the House, the company should do this forthwith. It is not a big deal for the company which is in a good position.
Joe Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Does the Minister for Agriculture and Food have any say in the matter?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The company is doing well at home and abroad. It has been well dealt with under EU rules and by the Government. I accept some legal issues are outstanding with which I am not familiar. As I understand, the Minister for Agriculture and Food has asked the Attorney General, or at least her own legal experts, to examine these matters. However, this does not take away from the fact the workers have received a clear decision from the Labour Court. The company should deal with it.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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It is true that Greencore has done very well from the package. Unfortunately, it is not true that the workers, growers or the economy have done equally well from the manner in which the Government has handled this issue. We are left with a site which has tremendous development potential for the company but not necessarily for the generation of wealth and certainly not for the growers and workers directly concerned. The fact is that there is a Labour Court recommendation. One would expect a major public company to give its allegiance to the voluntary industrial relations system in operation. It is not doing this. The Labour Court has spelled out in crystal clear terms that the workers' interpretation is the correct one:
For the avoidance of doubt the court wishes to again state that it intended in the recommendation that the staff on annualised hours salaries should have their ex gratia lump sum calculated by reference to their full unadjusted salary applicable at the date of redundancy plus 20% as provided for in the company-union agreement.
There is no argument here. The legal issues raised by the Taoiseach arise from the manner of distribution of the compensation fund where the company is arguing that the Minister gave a disproportionate amount to the growers and that it honoured the redundancy settlement. It did not honour the redundancy settlement and growers argue they received too little but the company has the hard neck to go to the High Court to seek a judicial review on the basis that the compensation was intended for it.
The Taoiseach stated the company ought to give its allegiance to the industrial relations machinery but, coming up to Christmas, workers who received none of their redundancy compensation want to know where is their money and whether the Government will vindicate their rights. The workers concerned have done nothing wrong. They did everything by the book. They went to the Labour Court and returned there three times. The Labour Court ruled in their favour three times yet they still have not received the money.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time has concluded.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The workers are owed €4.4 million by a company that, as the Taoiseach himself stated, stands to make extraordinary profits from the development of the site. We stand to lose two factories and we have to build a biofuel plant when the factory in Carlow might well have been adapted for that purpose. The company can buy in developers into its new shareholding structure. The company will make a fortune from the development yet it refuses to pay workers their due entitlement. They asked me to put a question to the Taoiseach, not to seek his sympathy or agreement. The Taoiseach could scarcely disagree. The facts are clear. The workers want to know what he is going to do about it.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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What the workers asked everybody else was whether we would look at the legal issues in regard to some of the money that has not yet been paid. I mentioned the Minister is doing this, but I do not know the legal certainties of doing that as it is EU money. It is a private company but it has been through the Labour Court. Because the factories are closed it wants to develop the sites and it stands to make a lot of money. Under the 1946 Act, it is not legally permissible for the Government to force somebody to comply with the Labour Court, but it is the voluntary arrangement. The reason it is not legally compelling is that employers follow the standard norm of industrial relations, namely, to abide by the Labour Court and Greencore should do this. I cannot put it clearer than that. Whether we have a legal hold on some of the money as yet unpaid is a matter that will have to be examined. As I understand it, this money is owed to the staff. The Labour Court has made a determination. We will look at the legal issues it but the company should pay up. It stands to make large amounts of money out of the redevelopment of these sites. Our view is that the company has been treated well by the State. I am aware the company and its chief executive does not share that view.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I represent a community of north County Dublin traumatised by extreme brutality and obscene violence during the past couple of days and weeks. On 6 November a grenade exploded outside a house in Ridgewood Green, Swords, a matter I raised in the House at the time. Half an hour after that attack another grenade attack took place in Finglas. Last weekend two girls, aged four and six years, were sexually assaulted. To listen to the father of one of those girls is heart rending. He said they had a bad night with her last night. She was up until 4 a.m. She came in crying and said she was having bad dreams about the bold man. She said, "Sorry, Daddy, for causing any trouble." She was starting to blame herself. That is devastating to hear from a four year old child.
The parents in Swords and surrounding areas are living in fear. As if that was not enough to bear, Ms Babia Saulite, a 28 year old mother of two was murdered at her home in a contract killing on Sunday last at 10 p.m. while standing at her front door. There is speculation that an international criminal gang is involved. Can the Taoiseach appreciate not just the trauma affecting the families and neighbours in a community but also the additional burden placed on Garda resources? For every serious incident such as the Rachel O'Reilly murder or these more recent crimes, gardaí are pulled away from normal police work in the community. Meanwhile an area such as Fingal in north county Dublin, like many commuter belt communities, has seen a population explosion without the commensurate growth in facilities. In 2005 one in ten houses in the State was built in Fingal. Swords, traditionally referred to as a village, has a population the size of Waterford City. I am not asking the Taoiseach to comment on the investigation——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time has concluded.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I am not asking the Taoiseach about national Garda figures but will he direct Government policy to benchmark and resource facilities, such as Garda resources, to match the population size in a town like Swords? We need a task force on meeting the needs of fast growing commuter-belt towns, not only in north County Dublin but throughout the country where commuter belt towns are experiencing an explosion in population without facilities. That task force should report in about three months, if not sooner.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Garda, through the report we received today from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, is doing everything it can in that area to track down the murderer and also the individual involved in the abuse of children. In a few other cases in the region last week the Garda investigation is continuing. I am not sure if the Deputy is aware that a substantial number of gardaí not only from that area but from the special units were involved in trying to track the murderers. They were not only from Swords or the north county area.
At all times the Government has to ensure the demands of the Commissioner, in terms of more gardaí, more overtime and more specialists and equipment are met. The directing of numerical strength into areas is an operational matter for the Garda. The analysis of the number of gardaí required is a matter in which the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Garda are involved all the time. Proportionately for our population the number of gardaí on active duty at a given time and in overall numbers is high.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Not in those areas.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is an operational matter for the Garda Commissioner. We have made it clear to him on a number of occasions, including last year, that any resources required would be provided. We fast-tracked a number of gardaí through Templemore, including special units, and €1.3 billion has been spent on overtime. We will continue to do this.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Clearly, the population has increased. Commuter belt communities, traditionally areas of small population operated with part-time Garda stations, need extra resources. At all times when that has been brought to the attention of the Minister for Finance he has been supportive of providing extra resources to the Garda to deal with such areas.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I had an idea the Taoiseach would say operational matters were someone else's problem. I recall him declaring an interest in the writings of Mr. Putnam in his book Bowling Alone and how community values and building communities was an area in which he had an interest. The evidence, however, is exactly the opposite. That is the reason I ask what he will do given that he has declared an interest in building communities. Having sufficient gardaí on the streets is part of that. Waterford city has three Garda stations. An area of the same population size in Swords has one Garda station which also covers Donabate and Portrane. Waterford city has 21 primary schools while Swords has less than half that number and no secondary school in Donabate. Waterford city has a FÁS training centre while Swords has none. Waterford city has three local development agencies while Swords has none. Waterford city has three full-time public libraries, while Swords has one. Waterford city has nine community centres, while Swords has just two.
Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I did not realise we had done so much.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Waterford city is entitled to its facilities and I would not take any of them away. Will the Taoiseach recognise the deficit from Government policy in pushing housing development without facilities to match that level of housing? Will he undertake to put in place a task force to indicate he means what he says when he talks about the value of building communities? These crime figures are taking away Garda resources.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy give way to the Taoiseach? He appears to be moving away from the Standing Order which states there shall be one question on one topical issue. I am not sure, at this stage, what is the Deputy's question.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I am trying to put it in context. Will the Taoiseach direct that the resources are put in place in those communities that do not have them?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy knows that where the Commissioner decides to deploy gardaí is an operational matter over which I have no control. If I said I was moving gardaí from one place to another, he knows what would be said. In terms of what the overall numbers are, we need to get to 14,000 gardaí, resource the special units and give additional overtime where the Garda requires it — we are giving huge amounts of overtime. We must look to the future of what additional gardaí we need even though proportionately per 10,000, per 1,000, per 100,000 or whatever way one looks at it, for a country of its size and geographic location and in terms of urban and rural areas, under every one of those headings we come out very highly. Apart from that the Government has continued to increase the number of gardaí, increase the specialisation of the Garda——
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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It is not even half way there.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——increase the equipment of the Garda and increase the hours. We will continue to do this.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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How the Commissioner divides that is a matter for him and the management of the Garda.