Dáil debates
Wednesday, 5 July 2006
Leaders' Questions.
10:30 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This is the Taoiseach's last day in the Dáil for this session. He has quelled a mini-revolt on the backbenches and survived an abortive leadership challenge within the Progressive Democrats last week. The Government this year has collected €40 million more in taxes than was forecast in last year's budget. On that basis, it is projected that the Government will have collected €2 billion more in taxes this year than was forecast.
The worrying aspect is that the gap between what the Government says it will take in taxes and what it takes is growing. The gap was €100 million in 2003, €650 million in 2004, €1,800 million in 2005 and is heading for more than €2 billion this year. It is difficult to believe, therefore, what the Government says.
The Taoiseach, the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism and other Ministers are probably deciding what they must do to get back into office after the next election. That makes me wary of the possibility of a big budget bribe later this year. Given that the Government will probably have more that €2 billion more than was forecast, that becomes likely. In the year before the 2002 election, public spending increased by 40%. There was a different Minister for Finance. We were told we should party and forget about the hangover. However, that hangover consisted of stealth taxes and charges, budget cuts, services slashed and an inability to provide proper services with the people's money. The cost of living soared, competitiveness fell and jobs were lost in manufacturing.
In view of the Taoiseach's comments in recent days, can I take it there will be no big budgetary bribe this year?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
To the Minister €60 million is only small change.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The people will not buy it this time anyway.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Can I take it that the Government will concentrate on attempting to provide the best level of quality services for the public with the public's money and that it will not do as it did prior to the 2002 election and increase public spending with a view to buying votes in an attempt to get back into Government? If that were to happen, and given the Government's record over the past nine years, it would be the worst Government that money can buy.
Noel Dempsey (Meath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Like Fine Gael did with its promises on Eircom.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Government paid the taxi men.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Taoiseach without interruption. The Chair suggests to the leaders and whips of the parties that, before the autumn, they discuss how they will ensure that any Member of the House who is called by the Chair is heard without interruption.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It will be winter before we will be back.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
If not, the Chair will deal with it. It cannot be allowed to continue. The Taoiseach without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I agree with Deputy Kenny and congratulate the Minister for Finance on an outstanding result in the six month figures. By any standard, these are good figures. They consistently follow what this Government has been doing in soundly managing the economy through excellent fiscal policies. Yesterday's figures show that an Exchequer surplus of €880 million was recorded in the second quarter of 2006. That compares to an Exchequer deficit of €594 million for the second quarter of last year. The budget deficit is at a far lower rate than we expected.
Due to the success of the economy, the great inward investment and the strength across the pharmaceutical, ICT and construction industries, tax yield is about €1 billion ahead of target. Tax receipts to the end of June are approximately 5.3% above the profile. I doubt that Deputy Kenny was questioning the figures or those who prepared them but obviously it is hard for people to compare the strength of the economy when it is growing at a rate so many percentage points higher than anywhere else in the European Union and in the world economy. People in the United States, Japan, Australia, Canada and the rest of Europe can see that we are outperforming them. The three tax heads, income tax, VAT and excise, are almost exactly on target and corporation tax and capital taxes are well ahead of target. Overall, it looks as if taxes for the year will come in €1.75 billion ahead of target.
Overall net voted spending to the end of June has increased by 9%, it is behind the target set for this stage. Deputy Kenny is talking about next year but this year we are spending less than our forecasts and prudently keeping with the targets.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is being saved for next year.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is against a debt to GDP ratio of under 20%, the second lowest in Europe and one of the lowest in the OECD countries. If that is netted against the €16 billion we have saved in the National Pensions Reserve Fund, which the Deputy supports, we have one of the lowest ratios of all.
If taxes come in as we think likely and expenditure comes in on target and there are no surprises, we will end 2006 €1.75 billion better off than expected because of the management of the economy. Instead of the expected borrowing of €3 billion, we will only need to borrow €1 billion. In six months the Minister for Finance and those working with him have improved our situation by 65%. That is good and let us hope we can continue to do that in the remainder of the year.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I asked if we can assume there will be no attempt to have a big budget bribe later in the year. Everyone recognises the strength of the economy.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Except the Opposition.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Everyone recognises the strength of the consumer boom and the construction industry. It is not, however, the amount of money that is taken in that is the priority, it is how it is spent and the value for money in services.
The Taoiseach and the Government, in spite of the strong economy which every one supports and which the alternative Government, when it assumes office next year, will expand and develop, have presided over chaos in accident and emergency units, with 20,000 people on waiting lists and MRSA rampant in hospitals. Crime rates are rising and detection rates falling, with 29 murders this year alone and violent gun crime out of control on the streets. There is no effective road safety strategy and prices are rising faster than the rest of Europe. The economy is hugely dependent on personal debt in consumer spending and the construction sector. Agricultural and marine incomes have been wiped out. Class sizes are growing. There are 100,000 pupils in classes of more than 30 and completely inadequate educational facilities for thousands of others.
That is what this Government has delivered with the taxes it has collected in the last nine years. While no one doubts the strength of the economy or will do anything to harm it, the Government's inability to accept responsibility for any action has resulted in an inferior level of service for the people who, when they pay for a service, expect one of the highest quality. Look at the transport delays and difficulties for commuters every day on the roads. Those are all down to bad, weak Government and an inability to accept responsibility for anything.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is a strong economy because this Government has worked with the people to make it so. There are 600,000 more people working.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They have to work to pay their huge mortgages.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The population has increased by 14% so 2 million people are on the road every day and that creates difficulties. We prefer that there are more people on the roads. We export €150 billion of goods that cannot get from Ireland to other countries without transport.
Jerry Cowley (Mayo, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They cannot get into Dublin from the west.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have built up huge industries across a range of areas and have high growth.
I am glad to see Deputy Kenny acknowledging the strength of the economy. Most of his party opposes our policies and votes against them and our budget strategy but we are building record numbers of homes and spending enormous amounts on transport. The Luas project, which the Opposition tried to laugh off, is now in profit, carrying more than 22 million passengers per year, the rail programme is moving on, our new strategy for science and technology has been announced and more resources are being invested in health, education and welfare to help the less well-off in society. We are building hospitals throughout the country, hundreds of additional first and second level schools and funding programmes through Science Foundation Ireland. That is where the money is going.
If I were in opposition I would be upset about that too.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We will continue doing that. It is uncomfortable for the Opposition to have to look at a country doing so well and know that it played no part in that for 25 years. The danger for the country is that perhaps it would play a part in it because we want to stay where we are and keep on going strong.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is all this Government wants — to stay in power.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I call Deputy Rabbitte.
James Breen (Clare, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The backbenchers are unhappy. They look very unhappy because their time is up.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have called Deputy Rabbitte and I ask Deputy James Breen to afford him the courtesy of being heard.
James Breen (Clare, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I apologise; I got carried away.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Taoiseach has just told the House how much better off the public finances are than had been anticipated. I want to tell the House about a man from Ballybunion called Tony O'Gorman who drove to my clinic on 7 April to tell me about his wife, who had been diagnosed as a multiple sclerosis sufferer and who has been awaiting the implantation of a Baclofen pump for two years because she is in permanent pain. She has been on morphine for nine months. My office and I have done everything we can. We have been in touch with the Minister, the hospital, the consultant, the Minister's office and the Health Service Executive but nothing has happened.
I will outline the situation to the House in Mr. O'Gorman's own words in a letter he wrote to me on 24 May:
As you previously know, Breda is disimproving by the day and at this stage, even to put her into bed or take her out, she is in cruel agony and ends up in tears morning and night. She has the district nurse and an assistant to take her up in the morning and to do normal procedures like washing her and dressing her pressure sores, which are not improving, only getting worse — it is very near to the bone — in time. As the infection in the sore is not decreasing it could very easily turn to gangrene which could be the cause of Breda losing a leg if action is not taken in time.
Every morning she is removed from the bed to the wheelchair and has to be moved from chair to chair several times a day in order to get relief from the pain and the spasms. This is an awful discomfort to her on a daily basis. She remains in this state every day and is unable to go anywhere as the pain would be too much.
As you previously know, she is taking 30 tablets a day and is so confused from these tablets that she is sleeping nearly 24 hours now. When she wakes it takes her a while to register where she is, forgetting a lot of every day things. She also has a pump on her which dispenses a drug called midazolam. This drip is injected into her 24 hours a day. This is to relieve spasm but she is only too prone to the tablets now and to the drip that it has occurred that they have no effect on her anymore. My daughter, who also cares for her, puts her to bed at night and found Breda to be stiffening in her upper body. That is due to the lack of physiotherapy. The procedure of physio cannot be started until she has the pump implanted, and her arms have weakened in the last few months also. We have tried everything at this stage and in our opinion we have nothing to lose if this goes public.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy's time has concluded.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
He goes on to ask me to raise the matter in the Dáil. That was on 24 May. I did not do so because I felt that private discussions with the hospital, the consultant and the Minister might be more successful. This is the last Leaders' Questions before the summer recess. If we have as much money as the Taoiseach says, why can this woman not get some relief from constant pain and have that appointment made at Cork University Hospital?
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Government has cut back on home help and everything else.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I appreciate Deputy Rabbitte raising this matter. If he had spoken to me about it beforehand I could have checked it and tried to find out some details. I do not want to add to the discomfort of the O'Gorman family but if I can add my weight to try to do something for them I will do so. I have no knowledge of the case whatsoever. I do not know what has happened or what the pump is.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is what the Taoiseach is presiding over.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I do not know what the medical condition is but I will be glad to examine the individual case.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I appreciate that the Taoiseach does not have any detail on the case and cannot be expected to comment on it. However, all the details that came to my clinic from Kerry on 7 April were sent to the Tánaiste, the hospital and all the other authorities. They know the detail inside out. On a number of occasions, Mr.O'Gorman offered to pay for the particular pump referred to. For some reason that is beyond me, however, the procedure has not been carried out. Everything they have tried has failed. When we raise the issue of the health services in a general way people have grown accustomed to it, but behind every ventilation of grievances aboutthe health services a family is affected. The O'Gormans are one such family.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy's time has concluded.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Nobody in a civilised society should be expected to live in the circumstances in which Mrs. O'Gorman is condemned to live. Any civilised society would seek to alleviate her pain and suffering. It is a terrible commentary that, in the midst of all the wealth the Taoiseach detailed to Deputy Kenny, we cannot seem to deal with cases like this.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
All I can do is check into the individual case and try to be helpful to the people involved. On the general point concerning staff, 130,000 people work in our health service every day. They deal with approximately 1 million people per year. One of the nice things about being Taoiseach is the letters I receive from families all over the country acknowledging and praising everything from coronary and cancer operations to complicated gynaecological procedures, as well as heart and lung transplants. These procedures are carried out by health service staff every day, using the vast resources we are able to give them from taxpayers and the economy generally in order to improve matters.
I will not attempt to understand the background to the pump the Deputy mentioned. I do not know why it could not be provided, nor what the clinical assessment was. Neither do I know why it had not happened after the Tánaiste's office was informed on 24 May. Like all these matters, when one checks them there is some reason behind it. Deputy Rabbitte has given an undertaking to examine the matter on behalf of a decent family. Mr. O'Gorman is obviously concerned about his wife, Breda. The Deputy has raised the issue here and I will show due respect to that family by checking on the matter. I will let Deputy Rabbitte know what I can find out.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Every winter we read headlines about the number of people spending many hours, or even days, on trolleys in the accident and emergency departments of our public hospitals. There is a myth that this is only a winter problem. Is the Taoiseach aware that the figures released yesterday by the Irish Nurses' Organisation show that some 202 people were on trolleys in A&E departments on the previous night throughout the State's hospital network? All of those 202 people were someone's child, brother or sister, parent or grandparent. The agony for all is obvious.
On 5 July 2005, this day 12 months ago, there were 232 people on trolleys according to the figures then applying. That is an improvement of 30 places but it is hardly something to trumpet given the fanfare that accompanied the announcement of the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children's ten-point plan to ensure an end to the accident and emergency crisis. What will the situation be like when it really becomes a crisis time of the year? If over 200 people are on trolleys today, what will it be like in November? Are we going to see record numbers of 500 plus on trolleys? What is the Taoiseach doing to address the problem now, rather than waiting until it becomes absolute bedlam?
The new treatment room that was established in Monaghan General Hospital remains closed and unresourced. Given the figures the Taoiseach mentioned earlier concerning a significantly greater tax take, why are we still waiting for the Department of Health and Children to resource this essential facility? That hospital has faced much turmoil and trauma in recent years.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy's time has concluded.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Where stands Fianna Fáil's promise, in its manifesto prior to the 2002 general election, to end the two-tier system within our acute hospital services? What about the commitment in the programme for Government to improve A&E services by significantly reducing waiting times and having senior doctors available at all times, including all appropriate consultants? I ask the Taoiseach to consider a final point. Is he aware, as I am, that we have a serious shortfall concerning the number——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy's time has concluded.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
——of consultant radiologists within our hospital system? People are being unnecessarily detained overnight in hospital because there are insufficient consultant radiologists to read the scans in order to inform the clinicians of how best either to continue the management of patients or to decide on their discharge. Clearly, this places a huge cost on the families concerned——
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy's time has concluded.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
——on the health system and — I will finish on this point — on the statistics concerning the bed crisis. Does the Taoiseach not agree that, unquestionably, we need the additional 3,000 beds promised? In addition, however, there must be a holistic approach to the crisis identifying the areas that have to be addressed. People should not be unnecessarily detained because clinicians have not received the report of scans.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I ask the Deputy to give way to the Taoiseach.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I ask the Taoiseach to advise us what steps he is taking to address this real crisis.
11:00 am
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy Ó Caoláin will be aware that the largest share of expenditure of additional revenues this year was given to health — over €1 billion into health resources and €500 million into the capital programme for health. That has been the case every year, with expenditure on health increasing from approximately €3 billion to €12 billion. Therefore, the resources are being provided. Most of that expenditure is reflected in staff, with approximately 35,000 more people, mainly medical and nursing staff, working to deal with these issues.
Most of the Deputy's questions were about accident and emergency units. He is right that this is the time of year to work on plans for the autumn. That is precisely what Ministers have been doing. Those of us who are on the Cabinet committee on health have regular meetings with the Department of Health and Children officials and the HSE with a view to improving the areas that need to be improved, dealing with problems where they exist and building on the successes. The key objectives are to try to tackle the problems in accident and emergency units in those hospitals where there are problems — I stress that is in a limited number, about 14 out of almost 60 hospitals — deal with the numbers of patients in accident and emergency units awaiting admission to an acute bed, the time those patients have to wait and the turnaround time for those patients who are treated without being admitted. They are the key objectives.
The number awaiting admission in June was 109, a reduction of 39% in the average numbers nationally between June 2005 and June 2006. I am not sure from where the Deputy got his figure. There was a 49% decrease in the average numbers waiting in the east and a 24% decrease in the average numbers waiting outside the east. The reduction can be attributed to a number of factors, particularly the impact of the private nursing home initiative for delayed discharges and increased management focus on accident and emergency units of hospitals. In recent months the seasonal factor has had an impact on the figures.
The Deputy asked about our plans. We will continue with the ten point plan and the short-term objectives that no patients will have to wait longer than 24 hours to be admitted to an acute bed. There will always be people on trolleys. Obviously when people come to accident and emergency departments they will be on a trolley. The elimination of trolleys in accident and emergency units is not the issue but rather that patients do not spend an excessive period there. No accident and emergency department is to have more than ten patients awaiting admission. The privacy and dignity of patients awaiting admission is to be preserved. The long-term objective is to ensure no patient will wait longer than six hours to be admitted after a clinical decision to admit has been made.
During June, 14 of the 18 targeted hospitals achieved their targets. The exceptions were Beaumont, Tallaght, Cork University Hospital and Drogheda hospitals. During the past two weeks eight of the 18 hospitals had patients waiting longer than 24 hours for admission. All this is being monitored closely.
The Deputy asked if I would say what is happening. The development-expansion of the minor injuries units, chest pain clinics and respiratory clinics is moving well with provision for these units in Connolly Hospital in Blanchardstown, Cork University Hospital, St. Vincent's Hospital and St. James's Hospital. Outside Dublin we have provided for the expansion of minor injuries units in St. John's Hospital Limerick and Waterford Regional Hospital. These units are fully operational. In regard to the second MRI at Beaumont, the interim arrangements with a provider are in place. The second MRI is due to be commissioned later this year.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Provision for acute medical units for non-surgical patients is being made as well as the transfer of 100 high dependency beds, 38 of which have been dealt with. All of these initiatives are being monitored carefully. We are providing admissions units and other facilities to alleviate pressure in accident and emergency departments in Cavan, Wexford, the Mercy Hospital in Cork and Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda. In Tallaght Hospital an admissions unit is being provided close to the accident and emergency department which is expected to be operational in September for 40 patients. St. James's Hospital has another low dependency unit as has Naas General Hospital. All these reforms are taking place, resources are being provided and construction work is under way during the summer.
The Deputy referred to the service provided by pathologists and radiologists. He has a point. As part of the social partnership talks I particularly asked the staff associations, both professional and non-professional, to work with the negotiators in the Department of Health and Children. The old concept that a hospital can work for seven hours a day while many of its main units have machinery and equipment that costs a huge amount is a system from the past. The Deputy is correct in saying that is part of the problem. It does not work if people finish at 4 p.m., 5 p.m. or 5.30 p.m. We have asked the unions to engage with us during the summer in real negotiations with a view to extending the hours. We know this will cost money.
In the private hospitals the units start at 6.30 a.m. and work until 8 p.m. or 9 p.m. Last night a friend of mind had a procedure at 8.30 p.m. This happens all the time. This will have to be done in the public hospitals also and we will have to pay our staff accordingly and, perhaps, buy out old agreements. One cannot run a hospital around the clock when some of the main units only work six or seven hours per day and where equipment costs the taxpayer millions of euro. We want to engage with the staff.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Taoiseach's time has concluded.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Sorry, a Cheann Comhairle, it is important. We want to engage with the staff and come to agreements where the length of the working day or the shift system will work so we can read the pathology lists and other lists and deal with these issues. However, we need the co-operation of the staff and staff associations to do that. I made a particular point of this in the negotiations. Also we want to make progress with the doctors and the common contract. I understand the consultants are anxious to help us improve the health service. Hopefully, during the summer they will make the necessary moves to help us. We cannot do it without them. They can, of course, take a belligerent view and not help us but that would not help the patient. We are also making progress with general practitioners. I hope we can continue with these reforms but we cannot do it on our own; we need the staff associations to work with us.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On that point where stands the renegotiation of the consultants' contract? Is the Taoiseach pursuing that with the necessary vigour to ensure consultants are appointed who will work solely within the public system? I welcome the fact the Taoiseach's friend has obviously had access to a procedure and I wish the person well. The 202 people on trolleys also have families. They are waiting within our public health system and it is their need and interest I wish to see addressed here. The Taoiseach can trundle out his responses on the amount of money thrown into the system but where is it being directed to when there is a new treatment room at Monaghan General Hospital that is unresourced for months, not open and not serving the community? That is unacceptable when we have a dearth of consultant radiologists to read scans while people are being left for days waiting and worrying about results, apart from the fact that but for the delay they may have been able to be discharged, saving them an expensive overnight stay in our hospital system and the system itself which must subsidise that presence.
Nothing in what the Taoiseach has said tells me that, given the past nine years of the horrendous state of our health service, over which he has presided, he has any answers to address the problems at the core of the health crisis. He has less than nine months to address the problem and convince the people and no amount of Houdini like tactics will fool them or cod them when it comes to the general election. People have memories. No matter what the Taoiseach does in the intervening period, unless he demonstrates he is serious about addressing this crisis in the interests of all our citizens, he will deservedly pay a very dear price.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I could go through all the procedures in every hospital under the capital programme. The Health Service Executive is putting €500 million this year alone into the hospitals. That is a huge amount of money. The biggest problem is making sure they will all spend it.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will they be staffed?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Please, Deputy Ó Caoláin——
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Bricks and mortar.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We are staffing them.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
No. They are not being staffed.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy wants to ask questions. When I am replying he wants to ask more. Will he please listen?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will the Taoiseach answer the question?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will answer the question. Every single hospital is receiving assistance. There is not a crisis throughout the health service.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We are delighted to hear that view expressed.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy had his opportunity to speak.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have a difficulty in A&E units in some hospitals. However, daily throughout the country successful operations and procedures are carried out and people get medical and surgical treatment to help them back to full health. The picture the Deputy is trying to paint of 1 million people failing to get excellent care is wrong. It is sad that he paints that picture. At this very hour, people are being treated in hospitals throughout the country.
The Deputy should take into account that hospitals such as in Kilkenny and Waterford, which have fewer staff than the hospitals referred to by him, carry out the services more efficiently.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy Ó Caoláin is right about reform. I praise the excellent staff who carry out their duties, but some hospitals with more staff than those hospitals have problems. That is the reason reform is essential. We need reform such as a change in the length of the working day. The Deputy pointed out that sometimes people who come into hospital on a Monday do not get treatment until a Wednesday because the staff in the unit finish work at 4.30 p.m. This would not happen in any other area. How would industry work efficiently if people operating expensive equipment finished at 4.30 p.m.?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Doctors cannot operate in a hospital if operating theatres are closed.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I ask Deputy Ó Caoláin to allow the Taoiseach.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Deputy should listen to the point he made. His point was that people are in beds too long because facilities are not available. My response is that the reason for that is that the work practice for years has been that the services close at 4 p.m. or 4.30 p.m. The Government has been trying to change this so the units can remain open till 8 p.m. or 9 p.m. We will pay the staff and work with them to come to an agreement so patients do not have to remain in beds.
We have advanced the situation over nine years and whereas we had very few day cases, we now have hundreds of thousands of day cases and these people do not have the trauma of staying in hospital overnight. We brought in more consultants and hundreds of doctors to do this, but essential reforms are still needed.
The Deputy asked about the common contract for consultants. This issue is moving at a snail's pace, not because of the actions of the Department of Health and Children, the Government or the HSE, but because the consultants have a very good position. We want them to move through meaningful negotiation and do not want to take money from them. We know they are well paid, good and experienced people and do not want to take money from them. We only want to bring in necessary reforms to make the system work better. That is all we want to do. We want to engage with them. The Deputy asked me about the letter they sent back saying they would not engage with us. We just want to deal with them, as we would with any association or trade union so we can make progress with the patients the Deputy and others are concerned about.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Government has had nine years to do that.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have made huge progress in that period. I will not remind Deputy Jim O'Keeffe about what happened with some of the contracts during the years some of his colleagues were involved.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Government has had nine years to bring about reform and has had tucks of money to do it.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We are engaged in the process and will continue our engagement. We have brought our health service to a stage where it is well resourced. We have a doctor and staff ratio higher than in most countries.
Joe Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Taoiseach should come to Mallow some time.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We are spending resources. We want to make the necessary reforms and will work with the HSE to do that. Deputy Ó Caoláin knows that in the hospital he mentioned it is in this area that some of the difficulties have arisen, and we are engaged in trying to solve them.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The only thing sadder than the Taoiseach is the reality of the hospital we must support and sustain.