Dáil debates
Wednesday, 28 June 2006
Priority Questions.
Decentralisation Programme.
3:00 pm
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Question 27: To ask the Minister for Finance his views on the stated opinion that core policy units may not be moved in the context of decentralisation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25172/06]
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There has been no change in the Government's overall approach to the implementation of the decentralisation programme, including that element that provides for the relocation of departmental headquarters. As the Deputy is aware, it is proposed, in respect of the Civil Service, to move the headquarters and the full staffing complement of eight Departments and the Office of Public Works out of Dublin, leaving seven Departments with headquarters in Dublin.
It was always envisaged that Ministers with headquarters outside Dublin would be provided with a centralised suite of offices close to the Houses of the Oireachtas for a small secretariat so they could conduct business while in Dublin and when the Dáil is in session. With regard to providing support for Ministers, the decentralisation implementation group considered that while logistical arrangements needed to be put in place to ensure this did not cause any difficulties, this issue should not create any particular problem for decentralised Departments.
Officials will be required to be in Dublin on occasions to attend to matters such as briefing Ministers generally, providing support during the passage of legislation, attending meetings of Oireachtas committees and participating in interdepartmental groups. These matters will impact in different ways across Departments and will, therefore, need to be considered by them as part of their implementation planning.
I understand from the chairman of the decentralisation implementation group that following his group's round of meetings with the Secretaries General of decentralising Departments, the group is satisfied with the level of planning in each of the Departments and is confident the senior members of the Civil Service are leading the implementation of this programme in a professional and carefully planned manner.
Over the course of the next few months, advance parties will be on the way to three of the locations that will eventually be home to the headquarters of Departments. The Departments and locations in question are the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, which will go to Cavan; the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, which will go to Killarney; and the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, which is sending an advance party to temporary accommodation in Tubbercurry prior to ultimately basing the entire Department at Knock Airport.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is effectively saying the Taoiseach misled the Dáil. The Taoiseach said in the Dáil that the core policy units may be not be moved as part of decentralisation. However, the Minister has now said that the full decentralisation programme, as originally planned, is going ahead. This opinion differs from that expressed in this House by the Taoiseach. One can only conclude that either the Taoiseach or the Minister was mistaken and misled the Dáil. Alternatively, is it a case that the Taoiseach and the Minister are not talking to each other and a final policy decision has not been taken?
It was initially promised that 10,000 civil servants would have moved to decentralised locations by December 2006. This was the original proposal and commitment given to the Dáil. The reality is that by December 2006, no more than 1,000 civil servants will have moved. The programme is getting shakier by the day in respect of what will happen on other fronts. A further parliamentary question also explores possibilities in respect of decentralisation and what will happen. Was the Taoiseach wrong in telling the Dáil that the core policy groups within the Departments may not move from Dublin? Will the Minister give the House a straight answer?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I know what the Taoiseach said in the House. He was answering a number of supplementary questions and clearly set out the situation. One version of the situation is continually given by the other side of House. The decentralisation programme was announced and then there was a decentralisation implementation group, which was charged with the responsibility to work through the issues and implement the plan. We know how complex and wide-ranging that work is.
In 2005, the group produced a report that revised the timescale, which was accepted by the Government. The Government's position is not to have 10,000 staff relocated by 2007. Rather, we agree with the decentralisation implementation group's revision of the timetable. The group identified some early movers, highlighted outstanding issues to be addressed and spoke on State agencies, professional technical groups and the need for a ground-breaking initiative concerning State agencies that do not have the tradition of transferring staff that the Civil Service has and that has proven successful in the implementation of previous smaller plans. This has been the up-to-date position since 2005.
I have outlined that there is no change in the substantive policy of the Government, namely, to relocate Departments in some cases. In his response, the Taoiseach also pointed out that the situation of the agencies has not been resolved, but there is an agreement to enter into an industrial relations process. The arrangements are voluntary, as was always the case, but we were not getting any engagement to try to advance matters, even from those in State agencies who wanted to relocate to ear-marked Departments or vice versa.
In the context of decentralised Departments moving to new locations in toto, personnel will be required in Dublin to handle Dáil or other business. That is the pragmatic outcome, but the basic principle of relocating sections of or whole Departments to new headquarters remains in place.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has set out all the reasons for the delay in the decentralisation programme and I accept much of what he has said, such as that the three-year timeframe was far too ambitious, the difficulties that have arisen and so on, but he has not answered the core question. The Taoiseach told the Dáil that the core policy groups of decentralising Departments would not be moving. Was he wrong or is the Minister wrong?
The only people to whom the Minister has referred are the small secretarial back-up groups that will be required for a Minister to do his or her Dáil business. For example, the Minister has indicated that the only group to remain when the Department of Education and Science decentralises will be a secretarial back-up. Is the Minister wrong when he says Departments will fully decentralise or was the Taoiseach wrong when he told the House that core policy groups will remain in Dublin?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach did not say that.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy will not examine the record, I have the Taoiseach's script.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should tell us.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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In reply to Deputy Rabbitte, the Taoiseach stated:
However, the Deputy is talking about a small hard core, and all Members who have been in Government, including the Deputy, know that policy units are small. That issue is being discussed in the implementation group and it has been put forward by senior civil servants, especially from the higher grades. Their case must be listened to because the process is voluntary and the Government has stated throughout that we will consider such arguments.
We have not accepted those arguments.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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In the Minister's own words, he stated that——
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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——the Taoiseach's words indicate what is occurring.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The words confirm that ideas have been put forward and will be discussed by the implementation group, but those ideas have not been accepted.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I listen to discussions all of the time. I even listen to the Deputy, but that does not mean I agree with him.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Minister might learn something.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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He might benefit from our wisdom.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is part of the dialogue process. The programme will proceed as planned.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It is not proceeding as planned.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is. According to the record, the Deputy's attempt to suggest that the Taoiseach stated otherwise is not correct. The Taoiseach indicated and acknowledged that positions put to the group by certain elements of the Civil Service will be discussed. However, that does not mean we have decided to proceed as they have suggested and forget about our own plans, as those plans are in place on the basis of discussions.
Like us, I presume the Deputy wants to ensure that we have a situation whereby we have successfully implemented the decentralisation programme. We cannot have parallel systems, that is, two identical Departments in different locations. A Department will relocate if that decision has been made. We will carry out such relocations in the same way that we have successfully relocated large numbers of civil servants and others previously, although not to the same extent.
Already, 200 posts have moved out of Dublin and more than 1,700 have been assigned to posts that will decentralise, representing more than 20% of the total number of Civil Service posts relocating under the programme. The property acquisition negotiations have been completed or are significantly advanced in 30 locations and all decentralising organisations have produced implementation plans setting out the detailed arrangements they are putting in place to plan for relocation while also ensuring business continuity and the effective delivery of services to consumers. The implementation group has held a series of meetings with Secretaries General involved in the programme to discuss the planning framework, assess progress and hear about the challenges arising and steps proposed to address them. The group is also meeting chief executives of a number of State agencies.
There are areas in which we are not making as much progress as we would like and a ground-breaking initiative is required, especially in the State agency area. Taking FÁS as an example, entering an industrial relations process and working through issues is the best way forward. I was told during my last Question Time that such would not happen, but it has and is continuing. While it does not guarantee a successful outcome, it places the matter in a process whereby people are engaged in dialogue rather than a stand-off, where people would put forward different positions and the issue goes nowhere despite some of their organisations' members wanting to relocate. Like others, those people must also be represented.
Points about the implementation group's proposals and how they are proceeding have been raised by various groups, but the basic policy remains. The Government's position is to decentralise. The Taoiseach was acknowledging that the discussion had taken place, but he was not accepting the argument. We are not at that position where a number of these issues are concerned.
Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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We must proceed to Question No. 28.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is saying that not only is the plan not working, it is also running behind time.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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He is. Those are the facts of the matter.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should do his research. I will explain my position and he can explain his.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Decentralisation is not happening within the three years promised. Instead, it will take much longer.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should read the record.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is confirming that the Taoiseach was talking out of both sides of his mouth.
Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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We must proceed to Question No. 28.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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On the one hand, the Taoiseach said that core groups would stay to pacify the Civil Service and, on the other, the Minister said that everything is proceeding as planned.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I must reply. The Deputy is predictable and obviously has no intention to deal with the issue in a serious way. The Taoiseach rightly outlined the various issues that arose in discussions, but this does not mean that the Government has changed its policy. Everyone knows what issues will be raised in discussions, as they were raised in previous discussions on implementation plans and the decentralisation programme. The Opposition's political line in the House has always been to suggest that nothing is working and the programme should be forgotten. I am fed up answering questions on decentralisation asked by the Deputy and Members of his party.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Government made a promise in the House.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Government said it would take three years and would be completed by December of this year.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Minister himself said it.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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One would not want to hold one's breath.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The people who are talking out of both sides of their mouth are members of the party to which Deputies Paul McGrath and Bruton belong.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It was supposed to be completed by December this year. The Minister never answers a question from me about decentralisation.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As he is retiring I am not so interested in the Deputy anymore. I can provide plenty of examples of people who speak out of both sides of their mouth on the issue.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Government has been working on it for three years.
Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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We must move on to Question No. 28.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Some 10% of the moves have taken place in three years — that is not much of an achievement.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputies do not want to refer to the decentralisation implementation group decision of 2005 because it does not suit their purpose. They want to forget about it and pretend it never happened.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is that the new Cabinet?
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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That group did not make the commitment. It was the Minister's predecessor and the Government of which the Minister is a member.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It comprises the people who are implementing the programme. I wish to move on to Question No. 28 as I have exhausted my time with Deputy McGrath. I will certainly not convince him today.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is doing well.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Maybe during his retirement he will come to the opening of the new offices in Mullingar and finally acknowledge that decentralisation became a reality.
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister invite me to it?
Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Minister might prepare breakfast.