Dáil debates
Tuesday, 20 June 2006
Leaders' Questions.
4:00 pm
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The murder rate in north Dublin is reaching crisis proportions. This week, another murder took place, the third in a small area and the sixth in north Dublin this year, most of which have occurred in Kilbarrack, Donaghmede and Coolock. In parts of Dublin, the Glock is now the weapon of choice for executions. This city is awash with handguns which can be bought for a couple of hundred euro. The price of a gun now equates to the price of a human life.
The Government has failed to tackle the epidemic of handgun crime in this State. Fine Gael supported the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in drafting new legislation and has offered to support initiatives on a gun amnesty but there is still no sign of the implementation of such an amnesty. On 8 March, I offered to introduce a stand alone firearms Bill which would provide more serious penalties for gun crimes. That offer was refused and the consequence of the Government's complacency can be seen in the appalling murder and execution rates in north Dublin. Had that legislation been fast-tracked and the amnesty been implemented, gardaí would have been given a stronger legislative basis on which to perform their duty.
Since 1998, 108 people have been killed by guns in this country. Fewer than one fifth of these deaths have resulted in convictions. Last March, the Taoiseach claimed in this House that crime is not out of control. Does he now believe crime is not out of control? Does he think the good people of Kilbarrack, Donaghmede and Coolock believe crime is under control? Does he think the people of Ireland believe that?
Can he outline the specific actions he now proposes to take in response to this wave of handgun crime and a murder rate that is reaching epic proportions? Does it not bring home the truth highlighted in the words of the former Taoiseach, Mr. Haughey, when he said: "this is the worst Government in the history of the State"? The Government has no plan and nothing ever works.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy Kenny knows the fight against crime is an ongoing battle. It has always been that way and it will continue to be so. That does not only hold true for this country but for every western democracy. We have to keep dealing with the small but vicious and ruthless group of criminals who are involved in this. They will resort to any kind of action and the many murders in north Dublin and the greater Dublin area are part of this. We continue to prioritise the fight against criminals and to deal with this issue.
This morning the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform briefed me on his meeting yesterday with Commissioner Conroy and Deputy Commissioner Murphy. He set out how the significant resources of the Garda Síochána are being deployed to tackle gangland crime. He emphasised that the Garda Síochána did not have any resource or legislative problem in its efforts to deploy gardaí and equip them to address the challenges of crime.
Commissioner Conroy also briefed the Minister in considerable detail on the investigations into the 29 murders in 2006, 13 of which involved a firearm. Some 20 of these cases have been solved and files have been sent or are being prepared to be sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions. With regard to the other nine murders the commissioner updated the Minister on the investigations and briefed him on the issues that arise in these cases. A small number of criminals are prepared to take any action they deem necessary to protect their position, including extreme violence and murder. We continue to give top priority to targeting organised crime.
Regarding gun crime, under Operation Anvil the Garda Síochána has confiscated an enormous number of guns and handguns. Guns can be obtained cheaply in this jurisdiction or others and the latest figures available show that since the introduction of Operation Anvil, some 527 firearms have been seized resulting in 2,830 arrests for serious crimes, 43 arrests in connection with murders in the Dublin metropolitan region and 1,298 individuals being charged to date under Operation Anvil. These figures are impressive. Gardaí cannot be at every house on every corner and in every lane and if serious criminals attempt to take each other out, the Garda Síochána must continue to carry out painstaking investigations into it. Every time a murder is committed, more detectives are assigned to the case and removed from preventative work.
The Minister asked if there were outstanding legislative issues, other than the passing of the Criminal Justice Bill 2004 which everyone is committed to passing in this session. The Garda Síochána has the manpower and it must attempt to break these vicious gangs. It has broken many over the past years. Our work is to support the Garda Síochána in breaking these gangs because they are unlikely to listen to anything else.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
One of the principal reasons these people who have no respect for life or limb continue to do as they do is that they believe they will not be caught. The annual rate of murder has increased by 42% since the current Government took office in 1997. Teacher unions have reported that teachers are threatened with handguns. Headline crime detection rates have fallen in each of the past four years. These are serious crimes including murder, rape, aggravated assault, burglary and theft. Some 100,000 such crimes are committed every year on the watch of the absent Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. If he survives until next year he will have presided over 500,000 such crimes. After the tragic murder of the innocent bystander Donna Cleary, he stated that it was a watershed in crime. What resources have been put in place to convince the nation that it was a watershed? What evidence shows that her death brought about a watershed in crime detection, handgun crime and the wave of handgun purchases to execute people, which resulted in the murder of innocent people?
The Minister agreed to set up a special Garda gangland unit last year to tackle the spiralling rate of crime. How many officers serve in it and what resources are available to it? What is the programme for the gangland special unit and what are its results to date, given that only 17% of those who committed crimes have had convictions against them? A crime is not solved until a conviction is brought.
Last week I met the president of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York. Three gardaí are attending on McCabe scholarships. They have ample experience in successfully dealing with this kind of gangland crime and murder in cities across the United States. In briefing the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Government, is it not time the Garda authorities ensured such expertise is brought to areas of this city where people are terrified that this type of gangland crime will walk in the door, uninvited, resulting in more murders of innocent people? It is time the Government focused on this issue and dealt with it.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy Kenny knows my view on this — one death is a death too many, one crime is a crime too many. We must not portray crime levels as being at the same level as in New York state. Our numbers are high but have not changed much in recent years. Headline crimes may have approached 500,000 in the past five years but the figures for headline crime were the same some years previously. That is a hopeless argument for us to discuss. In 1996, 1997 and every year since there have been 100,000 such crimes but that is not the issue. The Garda Síochána is better resourced, with better laws and equipment. It deals with 500,000 more people and crime rates have reduced when measured per 1,000 people. The Garda Síochána is dealing with vicious people fighting over their patch for drugs and related issues.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Minister has allocated an additional €11 million to Operation Anvil for a dedicated group of detectives working to break these gangs.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Once again, he has not delivered.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The group has had some success but could do with more success. When some of these individuals have been shot, suffering serious injuries, they still will not speak or assist in any way with the investigation. That makes the task of the Garda Síochána more difficult in securing prosecutions. Some 20 of the 29 murders this year have been solved from the point of view of the Garda Síochána. Once the file is sent to the DPP, the work of the Garda Síochána is done. We must have prosecutions and in the remaining nine cases under investigation, most concern gangland crimes. We are fast approaching a force of 14,000 gardaí with major resources. The addition for overtime will allow gardaí to work on weekends on various missions under dedicated forces.
People have information and those who can help the Garda Síochána to break into a small number of gangs involved in one area in north Dublin should try to assist the Garda processes as outlined.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On the latest developments on electronic voting, two Ministers persisted with the purchase of equipment costing €52 million that has never been used in a general or local election. That is €52 million of taxpayers' money down the drain in one of the biggest examples of waste by this Government.
It is worth recalling that a number of experts outside this House warned both former Ministers with this responsibility, Deputies Noel Dempsey and Cullen, about the disastrous road on which they were embarked, but they dismissed and ignored that advice. They ignored the request for an all-party committee that warned that this would be the logical conclusion of where they were going. Then the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, thought up the bright idea and his successor, Deputy Cullen, insisted on implementing it, no matter what the objections or reservations on this side of the House and no matter what the expert evidence submitted by people outside this House.
After wasting €52 million of taxpayers' money, we now find it is costing us just short of €700,000 per annum to store these machines the present Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, has said will not be used in the next general election. That same Minister has mooted the idea of storing these machines centrally and has found out that we will have to pay a ransom of millions to buy out the leases committed to for the storage of machines we will never use. In County Monaghan, the returning officer has entered into a lease for 25 years at €25,865 per annum, although the lifetime of the machine is 20 years.
Tom HayesPat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What will the Taoiseach do about this mess? Will he abandon this crazy scheme and see if he can find anybody gullible enough anywhere in the western world to take the machines off his hands? Does the Taoiseach agree with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government that they will not be used in the next general election? Does he agree that nothing symbolises the incompetence and waste of this Government like the debacle of e-voting?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There are a number of points. People used the machines in the previous general election. There was no controversy leading up to the election about using electronic voting. In fact, the demonstrations that were held for young and old alike, in urban and rural areas, were highly successful and the acceptance rate of the machines in the election was high among those who used them.
People subsequently expressed some views about the speed and the process of how the voting should be done on a slower basis. It was long after that political controversy raged on this issue, when would-be experts — I do not know if they are experts — raised issues about this. Following that, it was agreed that we would set up a Commission on Electronic Voting, which has done a considerable amount of work and research analysing both the hardware and the software and which is due to report this summer.
Voting is a fundamental part of a democracy. If there is not agreement and if people who were in favour of electronic voting have subsequently changed their minds or have become convinced that, unlike the rest of the world, we should have a paper trail or that perhaps we still want to use pens and pencils to vote when the rest of world is moving on——
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They do so in every part of the world.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Transparency.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Allow the Taoiseach without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
——we must tread carefully on that.
On concerns about how the machines are stored, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is of the view that it would be much cheaper and cost effective if they were stored centrally, given some of the leases that people have taken to budget for these issues.
I have stated that, in the absence of political agreement on this issue, we cannot use them in the next general election. We must wait for the report to be published. I still hold the view it is a pity that the country that has continually the highest rate of software exports in the world is refusing to use electronic voting, even when we have gone through an international process resulting in using a company that is held in high regard and does not have a difficulty in other democracies.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
For the few million people in our country, I certainly regret that we are not moving down this road quickly enough. A vast democracy like India, with 600 million voting, can use it. It is difficult to explain internationally how we, the world's greatest exporters of software, have a difficulty and still want to use pens and pencils, or chalk, or crayons when we want to vote.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
One can count the papers. One cannot count the other way.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is a sad occasion but, as with many issues in this country, we will cop on and move on.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Taoiseach needs to cop on too.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
One thing the Taoiseach has managed up to now differently from his Ministers is not to convey arrogant dismissiveness of the views of others, but he now seems to be venturing into that and demonstrating lack of sure-footedness in other areas as well. The Commission on Electronic Voting issued a report that was damning in its criticism of the system the Taoiseach now seeks to give the impression was only objected to by the Opposition. While he dismisses so-called experts, those so-called experts were vindicated. They, like this party, opposed the system from the very beginning, explained why, relied on evidence from experts and, unlike this Government which is out of touch, did not dismiss them out of hand.
The Taoiseach is interested only in the Government saving face on this debacle while taxpayers are interested only in saving money. He wasted €52 million of taxpayers' money. He is paying almost €700,000 to store the machines. We now find that we will have to pay millions to buy out the storage leases for machines that we will never use.
I ask the Taoiseach again whether we will use them in the next general election because while his answer was that he agreed with his Minister that we will not use them, he added that we must wait for the report from the commission. Are we or are we not going to use them? By the time the editors get to work and finesse that English, it will be qualified. Can we have a "yes" or "no"? Are we going to use them in the next election or not?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Deputy Rabbitte's time has concluded.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When will the Government move to end, and cut its losses on, this issue? Nothing the Taoiseach has done symbolises more the waste and incompetence associated with his decision making than this issue. Did anybody ever go into one of the Taoiseach's clinics over the past ten years and ask for electronic voting? What is the point in comparisons with other democracies with first-past-the-post systems? This system was examined by experts and found wanting. That is the position and there is no point saying that if only X and Y had happened, we could have proceeded with it. What will the Taoiseach do about it now? Is there any prospect of selling the machines to anyone? Will we pay a ransom to people for leases to store machines that are worthless?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I ask Deputy Rabbitte to give way to the Taoiseach.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have answered Deputy Rabbitte but I will answer him again. Based on the fact that the general election is next year, I have stated on many occasions that we cannot use them next year. I hope that is clear enough.
I understand the Commission on Electronic Voting has carried out detailed examinations, including speaking to international experts, and is to report on that. I have not seen that report and I await it. I do not think that will change the position for next year.
I do not accept what Deputy Rabbitte seemed to imply, if not state clearly, about the company — the editor will have to work out what he meant. Is he saying this company is flawed?
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am saying the Government is flawed.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is he saying this company has sold this equipment, as it has in many countries, on some basis that it was not satisfactory for electronic voting? Is he questioning the facts on the countries in which these machines were used, that there was something wrong with the democratic vote in these countries? Is he questioning the credibility, expertise and technological ability of these people to provide the machines?
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The head messenger would not have bought them.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does the Deputy know this company, which invested tens of millions of euro in its product, is selling flawed equipment? If so, he should say that to the company because there is no point in saying it to me.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Why were the machines accepted?
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Did the Taoiseach get a receipt?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The company has been approved in many countries and it has demonstrated credibility in democratic votes in this country as well.
Willie PenroseBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
If we cannot agree on this, it is a pity.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does the Taoiseach think his Minister has done a good job?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Thankfully, this is a democracy and I am entitled to my view. It is a pity that if one votes electronically, one should also have to get a bit of paper out.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is nothing wrong with a pen and paper.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Every time somebody uses this technology, he or she does not need a hard copy.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They are called ATMs.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is not much point in having technology, if one goes that route. If that is the Irish solution to electronic voting in 2006, God help our ability to stay strong on software.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That sounds like a whinge. It is a pity €50 million was spent on it.