Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Question 8: To ask the Minister for Education and Science about the effort being made to improve pupil-teacher ratios with particular reference to the specific needs in areas having higher than average ratios; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [20029/06]

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Major improvements have been made in staffing at both primary and post-primary level in recent years. Next September there will be 4,000 extra teachers in our primary schools, when compared with 2002. Not only is the average class size in our primary schools down to 24, but there is now one teacher for 17 pupils at primary level, when resource teachers and so on are included. Children with special needs and those from disadvantaged areas are getting more support than ever before to help them to make the most of their time at school. With the thousands of extra primary teachers hired by the Government, recent years have seen the largest expansion in teacher numbers since the expansion of free education. Over the next two school years, more teachers will be put in place for the priority areas of disadvantage and special education and under a reduction in the mainstream staffing schedule.

Primary schools are staffed on a general rule of at least one classroom teacher for every 29 children. Schools with only one or two teachers have much lower staffing ratios than that, and in some cases there are two teachers for just 12 pupils. That will be reduced to 28 children per classroom teacher this September and in 2007-08 it will be reduced to 27 children per classroom teacher.

An initiative of direct benefit to primary schools in Kildare has been the change in the criteria for developing schools. For the current school year, the threshold for getting a developing school post was reduced specifically to help schools that are seeing large increases in enrolments each year, as is the case in many schools in Kildare. For the 2005-06 school year, 170 such posts were sanctioned, compared to 105 in 2004-05.

Major progress has also been made at second level. The pupil-teacher ratio at second level has been reduced from 16:1 in the 1996-97 school year to 13.4:1 in the 2004-05 school year. This reduction has been achieved through the creation of almost 1,800 posts and the retention of more than 2,000 posts that would otherwise have been lost due to falling enrolments. The Government has shown a clear determination to improve the staffing in our schools and we will continue to prioritise this issue.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister aware that the average pupil-teacher ratio gives a misleading picture of a particular situation in some schools? Some schools have a pupil-teacher ratio well ahead of the average and if they were excluded from the creation of the average, then the examination and assessment would be skewed. Can she indicate the schools, not only in County Kildare but throughout the country, which are currently ahead of the national average and whether teachers, students and the standard of education are suffering? A reduction in class size of one child in each of the next two years is hardly a major onslaught on an element of education which is fundamental to students' future well-being. Is the Minister aware that teaching unions have expressed concerns about this issue, with particular reference to schools with a higher than average pupil-teacher ratio?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I reject the claim that the quality of education or teaching has disimproved. Students are certainly not suffering in that regard. There is no doubt that the 4,000 extra teachers employed in the system could have been deployed to reduce class size but the Government chose to prioritise children with special needs, who had been forgotten for many years, and disadvantaged schools. That is why, under projects like DEIS, pupil-teacher ratios are 20:1 in junior classes and 24:1 in senior classes in the most disadvantaged schools. Nobody could argue with that.

Some 5,000 teachers have been employed to work with children with learning difficulties or special needs. Formerly, these children were not included in our schools and were the first to drop out, so they had to be targeted. There is a tendency on the part of classroom teachers to ignore these extra staff, even though classroom teachers also benefit when children receive extra support from resource and learning support teachers.

Having addressed these priorities, we have now given a commitment to reduce class sizes over the next two years. I am unable to give a commitment beyond that.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister aware of the schools in County Kildare which currently have an above average pupil-teacher ratio? This problem has existed for the past several years and will probably remain for a number of years to come unless urgent action is taken.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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While I cannot treat County Kildare any differently to the rest of the country, that county and other developing areas have special status and will receive allocations based on a pupil-teacher ratio of 28:1 from September. We envisage that a further 500 teaching posts will be created next September because of enrolment increases and schedule changes. That increase will make a significant difference to class sizes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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The public representatives of County Kildare were invited to visit some classrooms in order to understand why overcrowding will make the new curriculum impossible to teach. Does the Minister accept the influence this issue will have on the educational outcome of the children concerned? Schools face space problems alongside the challenge of pupil-teacher ratios.

If local authority housing is used as a criterion for disadvantage, are people on housing waiting lists or in private rented accommodation being included? They are often forced to move repeatedly, which is not in the interest of children. For financial reasons, local authority housing lists would seem obvious criteria.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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As regards disadvantage, each school provided and interpreted its respective information. Questions on local authority housing were asked and some schools may have included local authority housing waiting lists because they were familiar with the particular circumstances of their students.

In the coming school year, there will be no justification for classes of 33 or 34 students where a staff allocation has been made on a pupil-teacher ratio of 28:1.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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Theoretically, there should be no justification but such is the reality. Has the Minister any way of responding to the challenges faced by schools in areas with huge demand for places? The parents in these areas want their children to attend local schools but classrooms are too small to accommodate them. Is an emergency response possible for these areas? For the sake of the children concerned, the Department needs to move more quickly.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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A decision by a school to pack in more children is not sufficient reason for the Department to allocate an extra teacher.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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They have nowhere else to go.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Schools are aware of their allocation and the physical space available to them. If it is a question of physical space, €500 million is being spent on school buildings this year and, through the permanent initiative, schools can build extra classrooms. Teachers have to be allocated fairly and objectively and we are prioritising developing and disadvantaged schools and special needs students. By September 2007, there will be nearly 4,500 more primary school teachers in our schools than when this Government came to power. That is making a real difference to children.

Damien English (Meath, Fine Gael)
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Extra teachers are not the only answer because extra space is also needed. When the Minister is working out her priorities for the next couple of years, will she treat the greater Dublin region differently to the rest of the country? She should look at the average figure for that region because it contains the schools under the greatest pressure. If they are as good as she claims, I will accept that but counties Kildare, Meath, Louth and Wicklow need urgent support. In respect of class sizes, some children in County Meath have to leave their school buildings to attend classes in houses across the road.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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There is absolutely no evidence to support the Deputy's claim.

Damien English (Meath, Fine Gael)
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Laytown.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I am grateful to the Deputy for his confidence in my plans for teacher allocation over the next few years but he should also be aware that we have plans for individual areas.

Damien English (Meath, Fine Gael)
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I asked for average figures in respect of the greater Dublin region.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I never hear anybody acknowledging that there is one teacher for every 17 primary school students.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is a basic entitlement.