Dáil debates

Wednesday, 17 May 2006

Ceisteanna — Questions.

Departmental Bodies.

11:00 am

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 6: To ask the Taoiseach when the new task force on active citizenship last met; and when he expects the next meeting to take place. [14279/06]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 7: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the task force on active citizenship; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16018/06]

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 8: To ask the Taoiseach to detail the membership of the task force on active citizenship; the role and function of same; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16122/06]

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 9: To ask the Taoiseach if he will outline the programme of work for the recently appointed task force on active citizenship; if the committee has yet met; if a deadline has been set for completion of its work; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16168/06]

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 10: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the new task force on active citizenship; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16188/06]

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I propose to take Questions Nos. 6 to 10, inclusive, together.

I announced the membership of the task force on active citizenship on 18 April. I was pleased to be able to secure the agreement of people with a record of achievement across a wide range of areas of public life to serve as members of the task force. The task force will be chaired by Ms Mary Davis who, in her role as director of Special Olympics Ireland, succeeded in generating a tremendous response from ordinary citizens to the extraordinary experience that was the Special Olympics in 2003.

I envisage that in the course of its work the task force will consult individuals and organisations throughout the country on their experience of the influences that shape citizen participation and engagement. It is intended that the task force will report its findings to the Government within nine months. The task force will hold its first meeting today and its work programme will be a matter for it to determine.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In April, the Taoiseach stated: "when the capacity of the State was limited by a lack of resources, it was the commitment of the Irish people that so often, formally and informally, provided social services, community leadership as well as a sporting and cultural life for our people". I agree with that statement and pay tribute to the marvellous and decent people who, in their communities, continue to make tremendous contributions, especially for our youth, in facilitating a broad range of sporting and voluntary activities at great cost to their own time and convenience.

Now that there are far more resources in this State, does the Taoiseach agree that an enormous barrier to young parents having the time to become more involved in active citizenship and providing facilities is the failure of the State that he leads to resolve critical issues, which cut across such involvement? If young parents are enslaved by 40-year mortgages and are working all the hours available, their time to become active in providing facilities for the youth is limited. Furthermore, the fact that people spend many hours marooned in traffic, morning and evening, commuting to and from work also severely curtails their ability to provide necessary facilities for the youth. Therefore, a much wider remit must be included in finding a solution to the fact that active citizenship is not as strong as it once was.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This country is not unique in terms of the issue of active citizenship. However, we are unique in that we have been lucky, throughout the ages, in having people who give an enormous amount of their time to a wide range of organisations. People are still doing that in large numbers and it is important to maintain that involvement. Those involved in youth, sport and recreational organisations and scouting movements say that it is getting harder to attract volunteers, for a variety of reasons. The task force will undertake an examination of what can be done, how best to maintain that tradition and how to build upon it. There are many successful organisations which continue to enjoy success.

Considerable State resources are invested in organisations and bodies involved in a host of areas. However, the issue is not just about money, it is about encouraging volunteering and getting people to give some of their time. A great proportion of the population are very generous with their time but some, for one reason or other, are not. One cannot generalise about that because some people have legitimate reasons, while others do not. We are trying to encourage participation and to foster best practice.

Many good reports have been published on this area. Over the past year a small group in my Department have been gathering the research on the issue and have made it available to Ms Davis and her committee. We hope to be able to chart out the actions that can be taken here. Almost everyone on the committee has been involved in this area, some for 20 to 40 years. Some have been involved in organisations that have been active in the area since the foundation of the State, if not earlier. The group is a serious one which will engage with many other groups. It will be a useful exercise for the future and will be useful for State agencies and Departments, which will be able to work on the principles outlined by the task force. This will ensure that we can continue to support communities and voluntary activities in future.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I welcome the appointment of the task force on active citizenship and expect that Ms Davis will do a first class job in her role as chairman. When does the Taoiseach expect to receive a report from the task force?

Time is probably the most precious commodity people have these days. Participation and active citizenship is vitally important in the building of strong communities and as a presentation of the kind of country and people we are. Why is there nobody on the task force who will represent the immigrant community? One of the problems we face as a nation is not just immigration, but integration. The point being made to me at meetings I attend around the country is that immigrants who come here want to be able to say they understand their rights and they accept their responsibilities in terms of the way we do things. In that context, a representative of the immigrant community or ethnic groups should have been appointed to the task force on active citizenship to reflect the important issue of integration into modern Irish society.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy Kenny will appreciate that the number of groups, bodies and organisations that wanted to have a member on the task force was enormous, which was encouraging. At a time when it is difficult to get people to serve on what used to be seen as attractive boards, that was not a problem with this task force. The issue raised by Deputy Kenny came up but while the membership of the task force on active citizenship includes people from a range of diverse backgrounds, it was not feasible to pick a representative from the immigrant or ethnic communities. There is an umbrella body for the ethnic groups which represents approximately 25 or 35 groups, many of which wanted to be members of the task force.

However, many of the groups with members on the task force, such as the trade unions, churches and business and youth organisations have large numbers of members from the ethnic groups. They are quite happy that they can get input on the integration issue from within their own groups and if need be, they can call on other groups or representatives. Many of them feel happy that they can represent ethnic groups. Obviously, to demonstrate the inclusive nature of the task force, they will consult some of the relevant groups. Many groups have not yet reached the stage where they will nominate one person or group to represent them. It is best left to the representatives of trade unions, churches and youth organisations to deal with the matter.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I accept the Taoiseach's point about large groups having members from immigrant communities, but integration is a critical issue in terms of our immigrant population and to reflect that up front would have been a positive indicator of what we want to achieve through the task force on citizenship.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is a very good point. I know that many of the sporting organisations, some of which I know well, certainly in the inner city communities, such as the FAI and the GAA, have a positive policy of working to include the new ethnic communities and minorities. Many of the primary schools in the inner city have pupils from over 20 different nations and there are no difficulties with people integrating, except perhaps with pressures on teachers. It is important that they integrate at that level, in pre-schools and primary schools, and that they join the same sporting clubs or, if they are not sport minded, that they join activities and scouting. In fairness to the groups, they are making it a positive issue, and in spite of anything else they get on with the job. This, as an issue, will be addressed.

Many of the people who have come here to live and settle are anxious to get involved in these areas.

Photo of Bernard AllenBernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There is hope for Dublin hurling yet.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Was it last year that the full-back for the Dublin under-16 team was Nigerian and the full-forward was Chinese?

Photo of Bernard AllenBernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Dublin won the all-Ireland schools this year.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is happening. Some of the best under age——

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Fijians are quite good too.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

My Galway colleagues tell me they have some of the best up and coming Brazilian footballers in rural parts of Galway. That has happened. They are integrating into the communities.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I agree with the Taoiseach about pre-schools and primary schools in particular. Tribute is due to the teachers who do such a splendid job. I speak for some of the schools in my constituency where the commitment of teachers is remarkable. The Taoiseach is right about the schools. The difficulty is outside the school gate. We would be at least complacent to believe there are no problems outside of the school gate.

Deputy Kenny has raised an extremely interesting issue about integration. It seems we do not attach the same significance to policies in the direction of integration as we do to other aspects of immigration. Hundreds of small companies cannot believe their good fortune that they have educated labour available to them prepared to work overtime without being paid overtime. Keep it coming. That is fine. However, we do not attach enough significance to policy in the area of integration and societal implications. Deputy Kenny has asked an important question. It is an oversight that there is no representative of the new ethnic groups on this citizenship task force. We cannot really state that the churches or trade unions can be expected to adequately represent that point of view. There ought to be direct representation of the new Irish on the committee.

Is there a timescale by which it is envisaged the task force will have completed its task? Does the Taoiseach accept that a core element of citizenship is the franchise? Will the committee under Mary Davis examine the issue of voter decline? I wish Mary Davis well and I know she will do an extremely good job.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Briefly, on the question of integration I agree with the comments made by Deputy Rabbitte on education. For that reason, the Minister for Education and Science and her Department have put an enormous amount of teachers into these schools and into the language learning initiative to help with English skills in schools. It is working relatively well. Deputy Rabbitte mentioned his constituency. The benefit of it is that now the pupil-teacher ratio is low in a large amount of these schools, which helps greatly.

The difficulty with the membership was to find representation that would be reflective of the groups. It was extraordinarily difficult. It has not settled to a position and numerous groups exist. I talked to a number of them. A number of the organisations and groups have a section dealing with integration. Perhaps the expertise and the people involved might be used. To take one or two representatives from the ethnic groups would have caused me more problems that I was going to resolve. At one stage at least 20 organisations all had a case. As it develops, if some of the groups feel it is not representative enough, I will take the advice of Mary Davis on it. Many of those involved are people from sporting and youth groups who have done a very good job over the past decade in integrating ethnic groups into the organisations.

I see the timeframe for the work as being approximately a year. I do not want to fix a deadline. It will take time. We have set a target of nine months but even that will be tight. I think the work will take a year. It is more important that the group gets it right and sets out a blueprint for the future, building on the good things that are there, the best practices and what happens internationally. This issue happens all over the world. Most of our friendly neighbouring countries are also looking at this particular issue and involving people.

Voter participation was not one of the issues included. However, I suppose good citizenship has a knock-on effect on it. The group's terms of reference were more about trying to get the spirit of what works well in communities and urban and rural areas and building that citizenship. Building active and good citizenship certainly will have a plus side on people wanting to be involved and to participate. I hope it becomes a knock-on effect of it in the future.

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Like the other leaders, the Green Party welcomes the task force on active citizenship. I often feel that volunteers in Ireland must feel like the boy on the burning deck with the flames getting higher and higher, given the time-poor lives many people are forced to live. I also acknowledge those involved as scout leaders, in tidy towns and parent teacher associations and teachers in many schools. It seems to be the same people again and again who highlight the problem.

Will the Taoiseach help Mary Davis and her committee in terms of measures to meet them half way, given the enormity of the task they face if they are to turn around a trend of less and less volunteerism and active citizenship in society generally? I certainly witness that trend. Will the Government bring forward the charity legislation to regulate the sector given that so much active citizenship is dependent on the work of charities? However, they are often in a legal limbo. Likewise, a designated week for volunteers——

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Deputy must confine himself to questions. A number of Members want to participate.

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will the Taoiseach help to meet the task force somewhere along the line by ensuring the Government can compensate for some of the problems which have been created? I will not state the Government has created all of them, but it has done its fair share in terms of people being time-poor with long commuting distances. Does the Government wish to introduce or announce measures to encourage the task force in its work?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Part of the preparation for this involved the small unit pulling together the resources that exist for supporting community and voluntary groups. It is only when one sees it all together, one realises how many exist. The community and voluntary sector spends approximately €300 million annually, outside of sport. It is spent on community issues, such as the resources which went into tackling economic and social disadvantage. More than €60 million goes into some of those programmes. The local development social inclusion programme is allocated €50 million. The community services programme has over €40 million and the rural social scheme also has over €40 million. The community development programme spends €24 million, and a Leader programme spends a large amount of money. Public funding of almost €150 million is being given to the new layout of the Leader programmes. Some €13 million is allocated under the national rural development programmes. Almost €50 million is allocated to the young people's facilities funds, mainly linked to drugs-related issues. Other programmes include those related to peace and reconciliation and RAPID.

When all these programmes are put together the total allocation comes to several hundreds of millions. This excludes entirely the sport sector. If that is added, the total is much more than €500 million. Infrastructural grants come in other ways. When there was no money there were far more people involved in these activities. It does not come down to people being unemployed in the past either. It is different, and people have done research on this in every country. There has been change, and people have better homes and could have access to 100 television channels. There are better music and other types of facilities. One can see this type of research in every report on the matter.

Ultimately, we are still lucky in this country because of the amount of people who are prepared to give their few hours to an under tens team, the scouts, walking clubs or An Óige etc. The issue is how all this is pulled together to make a structure for the future.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I can see the makings of a new interview in this.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is an interesting position and we should foster and build for the future.

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There will be no charity legislation.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Like the other Deputies, I welcome the task force on active citizenship and wish Ms Mary Davis well in her job. I hope the task force will be able to highlight the main barriers to active citizenship for many people and consider that aspect, as well as how to encourage people to give up their time freely. Barriers include exorbitant mortgage payments, which people have to work long hours to meet. People are stuck in traffic because of inadequate public transport and the chaos on our roads.

I wish to return to the point made by Deputy Kenny with regard to the rapid inflation of immigrant communities. Despite what the Taoiseach stated, there are ways of ensuring immigrant communities can be represented, and groups are there which could do this.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Does the Deputy have a question?

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will the Taoiseach look again at ensuring that immigrant communities are represented as a body? The representative could be somebody from the newspaper Metro Éireann, the Immigrant Council of Ireland or from Sport Against Racism in Ireland. I know the Taoiseach is interested in sports. It should be a direct representation rather than through some secondary body, as was suggested.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am open on that issue, and the question is how a representative can be found. There are many people from different groups, but the amount of groups makes it difficult. Perhaps it should be left to Ms Davis and her group. They may feel there is someone who could take a broad representation and would be acceptable.

I do not always agree with the theory that this is about people who are working or in traffic commuting. I will not take issue with it now as I wish the group well. My experience of observing is that the busiest people travelling the furthest, who may be sales reps or truck drivers working around the country and the Continent, will always make it home to manage their team at the weekend. The person who has a business beside their house and does not have to drive anywhere or finishes quite early can be so busy after 5 p.m. or 6 p.m. that he or she cannot give an hour at any stage. People may return home at 5 p.m. at the weekend and not surface again until 8 a.m. on Monday, never giving an hour.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Some would go home at 5 a.m. and still find the time.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

They are active citizens too. It does not follow in practice that this is the difficulty. Some people are committed and interested, and the effort should be to get more people to give a little bit of time to help. That makes good practice for active citizenship.

Jerry Cowley (Mayo, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am grateful for the opportunity to ask the Taoiseach a question on the issue. I welcome this task force. I know Ms Davis and I wish her well. I ask the Taoiseach's opinion on the fact that much frustration exists among communities in trying to get things done in competition against the private sector. I know this as somebody who has worked and continues to work in communities. This even extends to getting land for social housing. A community looking to provide basic housing for local citizens may have to compete with people who wish to build many houses for profit.

Other projects I have been involved in are other examples. There is much difficulty in communities trying to raise a percentage of a price in competing with the private sector for sites or other lands. With regard to nursing homes, some communities are anxious to support people in their own community, but this is not possible because of competition from the private sector. There is a lack of assistance from the State to communities.

I ask the Taoiseach, in the context of citizenship, to support the people who are trying to act as I have described but cannot do so because of unfair competition and lack of input from the State. I would like the Taoiseach's opinion on the matter.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is an issue, as any voluntary group cannot afford to pay huge prices. I accept it is a difficulty. That was a reason for the State lands initiative. Local authorities should try to give some of their land. The committee chaired by Des Geraghty, in the context of the affordable housing initiative but it has a wider application, said that where there is much land that is not zoned, community zoning would be a simple system. It has been picked this up from what is happening in some councils in the UK, where land which is derelict but zoned as open space could be rezoned, but only for community purposes. It is a simple operation.

The proposal has been put, the Department of the Environment and Local Government has gone with it and it has been discussed with some local authorities. There is no reason the idea could not be used nationally, as it would give an incentive to zone land exclusively for community use. People would support the idea on that basis, but if it was for private development people would not support it. This is a way to deal with such matters and to keep the price low.