Dáil debates

Thursday, 4 May 2006

Other Questions.

Election Management System.

3:00 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 8: To ask the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government the latest figures on the cost of storage of electronic voting machines; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16628/06]

Photo of Dick RocheDick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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Historically, responsibility for the security and safe storage of voting equipment such as ballot boxes, stamping instruments etc. has been a matter for returning officers who are statutorily responsible for conducting the polls. Accordingly, similar responsibility was assigned to returning officers for the storage of the electronic voting equipment. It is important to ensure that all necessary steps are taken to protect these instruments.

Information provided by returning officers to my Department indicates that the total annual storage cost for the electronic voting machines and ancillary equipment, which includes rent, insurance, service charges, rates, heating etc. is €696,000. This is the figure calculated last September. I have asked my Department to explore, in consultation with the Department of Defence, the options for centralised storage of the equipment. I am pleased to tell the House that a premises suitable for centralised storage of voting machines has now been identified and arrangements for transport and storage are being discussed.

On the system itself, a programme of further assessment, testing and validation is under way in my Department to address issues raised by the Commission on Electronic Voting. The timing of the further use of the system is dependent on the progress made on this work and the ongoing work of the Commission on Electronic Voting, which was mandated by the Oireachtas in 2004 to continue its work and whose report is expected shortly. I expect the CEV to have a report shortly and, at that stage, further decisions will be made on the future use of the machinery.

Photo of Pádraic McCormackPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Given that the Minister, Deputy Cullen, insisted on purchasing the electronic voting machines, despite the opposition of Deputy O'Dowd, Deputy Gilmore and me at the Joint Committee on Environment and Local Government, and that €696,000 was the cost of storing the machines up to September last year, what is the cost of storing each machine in Waterford compared with other areas? Now that the machines have been written off, they will be sold at a loss because they will not make €52 million which they cost and which was a waste of taxpayers' money. Will the Minister who was responsible for pushing this programme through, despite the opposition, be surcharged for the loss incurred on the sale of the machines? Is it intended to store the machines in the same manner next year and what will be the storage cost next year? Would it be more economical to sell the machines, even at a loss, rather than paying €700,000 to store them again next year? I hope the Minister will be able to give me the figure for the storage of the machines in Waterford, which I understand is exorbitant.

Photo of Dick RocheDick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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The figure for the storage of the machines in Waterford was announced in a reply to a parliamentary question some time ago. The Deputy is correct that the figure was significantly higher than it was in other cases. For example, the cost of storing the machines in Waterford in 2005 was €52,888, whereas in other counties it was significantly lower. The cost in Louth was the lowest.

Photo of Pádraic McCormackPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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What about Wicklow?

Photo of Dick RocheDick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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The cost in Wicklow was €42,000, which was very high also.

Photo of Pádraic McCormackPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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What was the cost per machine?

Photo of Dick RocheDick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have the cost for each machine, but if the Deputy wishes, I will get it for him.

Photo of Pádraic McCormackPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will give them to the Minister.

Photo of Dick RocheDick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. However, if the Deputy knows the figure, I am surprised he asked the question.

Photo of Pádraic McCormackPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It was €172,000——

Photo of Dick RocheDick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy knows the answer, yet he asks the question. He would make a good barrister. He would make a better barrister than he did a Deputy.

On whether it would be better to sell off the machines, I remind the Deputy that the Oireachtas charged the Commission on Electronic Voting to carry out an analysis of the system. Therefore, it would make no sense to decide to make that decision in advance of the CEV completing its work. I anticipate that the CEV will complete its work in a short time, and at that stage I will make a decision.

The third question the Deputy asked related to whether the cost for storage will be as high in 2006-07 as it was in 2005. I hope the figure will be less. However, contracts have been entered into in some cases and there will be a cost for breaking these. I have already indicated that my view and determination is to bring the machines to an individual storage place as quickly as possible. I repeat what I have said in the past, namely, that I do not see the circumstances arising whereby we will be using the machines in 2007. Therefore, it would be appropriate to bring them to a single storage place.

On scrapping or giving away the machines, having set up the Commission on Electronic Voting, it would be much better to wait until the commission, which has spent a significant amount of money on its work, reaches a conclusion, after which I will make a final decision.

Photo of Tommy BroughanTommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Given that the Minister is effectively saying the machines will be held in publicly owned storage, what will be the net cost to the State from now on? Most Deputies are having their computers in the House upgraded to Microsoft XP. Is there a situation whereby the Minister might consider upgrading the machines, or can they be upgraded given the original comments by the commission? In other words, is there any possibility that the machines will be used and, as Deputy McCormack said, would it not be better to charge it to the Ministers, Deputy Noel Dempsey and Deputy Cullen, and write them off as depreciation?

Photo of Ciarán CuffeCiarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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To follow on from Deputy Broughan's point, computers in Leinster House appear to be recycled after five years, while they are recycled in the commercial world every three years. Is the Minister happy to stand over using computers that will be at least ten years' old by the time they are first used in a real life situation? Given that cars depreciate by one third from the moment they are purchased, I suspect the voting machines are worth just one tenth of what they cost. Does the Minister have any figures in this regard?

Photo of Dick RocheDick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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To answer Deputy Cuffe's last question——

Photo of Pádraic McCormackPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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What is the cost of the analysis the Minister is now carrying out?

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy must allow the Minister to reply because we want to get to Deputy Crawford's question.

Photo of Dick RocheDick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy knows that I will not know the final cost of the ongoing analysis until it is concluded.

Photo of Pádraic McCormackPádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Why?

Photo of Dick RocheDick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should have a little bit of logic in the way he approaches life. The Commission on Electronic Voting was set up by the Oireachtas to do a job. It is an independent body and we all expect it will do its job without interference from the Deputy or me.

On Deputy Cuffe's question about depreciation, it is not normally applied to equipment like this. He is correct that equipment depreciates over time. He asked a related question to Deputy Broughan's question, namely, could the machines be updated? There is a significant difference between simple enumerating machines, which is what these machines are, and computers. They would not require the same updating as computers. The final response to the question of the future use of the machines will flow from the CEV's report. I will not delay making a final decision after I receive that report.

Photo of Tommy BroughanTommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Will the cost be €44,000?

Photo of Dick RocheDick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy asked about storage in a centralised location owned by the State. I presume there would be some cost involved, because the Department of Defence might have other use for that space. The Deputy will agree that in the circumstances it makes much more sense to bring them back to a central location and store them there, though normally the electoral equipment is distributed among the returning officers. The circumstances in this instance are such that it would make much more sense to bring back the equipment to a central location. There will be some cost in breaking contracts but we will have to bear it.